Oswald's Russian Language Ability (?)

[Richard Booth]

Has anyone on this forum read Norman Mailer's book "Oswald's Tale" ?

I have not read it and do not have a copy. My understanding is that Mailer obtained access to some of the apartment KGB surveillance of Oswald -- but perhaps my recollection is wrong. I know he [Mailer] spent time in Russia writing the book and I seem to recall something about him getting access to this material.

At any rate--I wanted to ask forum members about this and if someone has read that book, and does it offer any insight as to what language Oswald spoke to Marina in, in Russia?

I recall reading somewhere or another that when Oswald was put in the hospital after the fake suicide attempt, the doctors there felt that Oswald could understand their Russian speaking and that he was feigning an inability to understand Russian.

To me, this remains one of the biggest enigmas in this case:

If Marina could not speak English, then that means Oswald had to have spoken to her in Russian. However, it is said that when he was in Russia, Oswald did not speak Russian at all. When John Armstrong visited one of the couples who knew Oswald and Marina in Russia he asked them "how was Oswald's Russian?" and they were shocked by the question, confused perhaps, saying that No, No, he did not speak any Russian.

Then you have Marina saying she was impressed with Oswald's Russian, thinking he might be a native speaker from one of the Baltic states. How do you reconcile this comment with the others in Russia who said he never spoke Russian when he was there?

Then you have this gentleman in Texas who signed a statement or endorsement for Oswald, saying that he could speak the language well enough to serve as a translator.

What do people here think about Oswald's Russian language abilities, whether or not he spoke Russian or concealed that ability when in Russia, and for that matter how do you think that Oswald and Marina communicated? 

[Richard Booth]

Also worth adding that Robert Webster, this other defector who was in Russia around the same time period as Oswald or just prior, did not speak any Russian. Yet, Webster also met and spoke to Marina Oswald when he was there. Webster told researcher Dick Russell in 1997 that he met Marina Oswald in Leningrad and spoke to her on several occasions. Given that Webster did not speak Russian it becomes a given that they spoke to each other in English.

I assume the same has to be said for communications between Marina and Oswald: English

It then becomes apparent that Marina Oswald--much like Lee Oswald--finds herself in a foreign country where she is pretending she doesn't speak the language.

There could be many reasons a person might do that, I do not necessarily immediately attribute this to nefarious motives. It could be as simple as a person does not trust Americans and wants to protect themselves and to do that they feign an inability to speak the language.

This too remains an enigma: Marina's language ability, and why she might have pretended to need a translator. 

What do other forum members think about this?

[Sandy Larsen]

I really don't know any more than what you do about this. But based on everything I've learned, I've long known that Oswald spoke excellent Russian, and long thought that Marina knew some English.

I think that Marina could communicate without a translator, but felt much more comfortable with one. I think the reason she didn't use English around those she didn't know well was for fear that they would assume that her English was better than it really was and would speak too fast and use words she didn't know. So she just stayed quiet or intentionally used broken English so that strangers would respond accordingly.

Oswald definitely hid his Russian speaking ability from everybody in Russia, with the exception of Marina. My guess is that they would speak both Russian and English when the were alone together, but mostly Russian since they could communicate more fluently in that language.

Marina must have, at the very least, suspected that Oswald was a spy. Otherwise why would he fake not being able to speak Russian?

I also base my thinking on observations of my Filipina wife, her family, and Filipino television shows. They sometimes speak in Tagalog, sometimes in Cebuano, sometimes in Ilonggo, and sometimes in English. She says they'll switch to another language when a topic is easier to speak in that language. Everybody there is pretty fluent in Tagalog, and most younger people speak pretty good English, so those are the languages spoken on television programs.

 

[Karl Kinaski]

Maybe this is of some help.

[Richard Booth]

44 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My guess is that they would speak both Russian and English when the were alone together, but mostly Russian since they could communicate more fluently in that language.

Wish we knew concrete details on this: I think we can safely assume that his apartment was bugged. And he surely knew that. If he was maintaining the ruse that he did not speak Russian, he would refrain from doing it in a bugged apartment for sure.

[Richard Booth]

18 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Maybe this is of some help.

Super interesting interview here:

https://www.rferl.org/a/interview-transcript-oswald-shushkevich-belarus-soviet/25172632.html

"when I became chairman of the Belarusian Supreme Soviet, [U.S. novelist and author of "Oswald's Tale: An American Mystery"] Norman Mailer came and asked if he could look at [Oswald's] personal file. I said, "Before the end of the day tomorrow, I will answer your question."

After he left, I called [Eduard] Shirkovsky, chairman of the KGB. I asked if it could hurt our interests. He said, "Of course not. Let him look at it, right now." That was his answer. Mailer had a big team. They wrote their book collectively. His representative, accompanied by a very nice lady, came back to me, and I said they could familiarize themselves [with Oswald's file].

[Joe Bauer]

What was Mailer's take on Oswald's Russian language use and proficiency?

Oswald was in Minsk/Russia for 3 years?

He did meet and socialize with at least some other fellows and ladies ( before Marina? ) in that time.

3 years is certainly enough time to sharpen your language understanding and usage skills when you are constantly surrounded by native language speakers.

Oswald was smart and a quick and willing learner.

I just can't accept that he would go through three years of Minsk working and personal life surrounded by so many who didn't understand or speak English and not be motivated to learn Russian as well as he could.

There is the famous filmed interview of Marina broadcast nationally just 3 months after 11,22,1963. The "Marina, what do you do all day" question one?

In this Marina speaks broken English for sure, but her understanding of her questions and responses to them ( even in broken English ) seemed surprisingly more comprehending than I had imagined. I had read so many articles during that time that made it seem like Marina was unable to speak and understand English except to a much less capable degree.

Paul Gregory ( who recently had published his own memoirs about being close to Marina and Lee for a few months ) had to have spoken to his Russian language tutor Marina in English to improve his own Russian language skills, no?

Did the 19 year old Gregory ( who obviously had a crush on the 21 year old sparkling blue-eyed beauty Marina ) state anything informative about Lee's Russian language skills that he observed?

Edited December 2, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:10 AM, Richard Booth said:

On 12/2/2023 at 7:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

My guess is that they would speak both Russian and English when the were alone together, but mostly Russian since they could communicate more fluently in that language.

On 12/2/2023 at 8:10 AM, Richard Booth said:

Wish we knew concrete details on this: I think we can safely assume that his apartment was bugged. And he surely knew that. If he was maintaining the ruse that he did not speak Russian, he would refrain from doing it in a bugged apartment for sure.

 

Excellent point. I think that, while is Russia, Lee and Marina must have spoken solely in English.

With all that communicating in English, Marina's English couldn't have been too bad by the time they moved to the U.S.

 

[Richard Booth]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Excellent point. I think that, while is Russia, Lee and Marina must have spoken solely in English.

Seems likely. If he's pretending he doesn't speak Russian - to the extent that he is given a tutor and he intentionally pronounces things wrong with that tutor, doing average or poorly- then you would think that he's speaking English most of the time with Marina. If so ... she's lying about not being able to speak it and needing a translator. Lying when telling Ruth that Lee doesn't want her to learn English. 

Marina is a total enigma to me. I know she lied a lot to the HSCA and I just cannot quite figure out her motives for different things. Also her marriage to Ken Porter (Collins Radio - CIA affiliated company?) is unusual. 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

Marina is a total enigma to me. I know she lied a lot to the HSCA and I just cannot quite figure out her motives for different things. Also her marriage to Ken Porter (Collins Radio - CIA affiliated company?) is unusual. 

 

I think Marina was threatened (with deportation?) to cooperate in the government's coverup. Naturally that would result in lies.

 

[Richard Booth]

Surely she was also rightfully terrified.

Know what is interesting? How she immediately cut off all contact with Ruth Paine.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Richard Booth said:

Know what is interesting? How [Marina] immediately cut off all contact with Ruth Paine.

 

I think you know what I believe, that Ruth Paine unwittingly help the plotters set up Oswald as the patsy.

Marina surely knew that her husband wasn't a killer, and had indeed been set up as a patsy. What was she to think, then, remembering that it was Ruth who talked her husband into getting a job at the TSBD? And then learned what Ruth was saying about Lee before the Warren Commission?

For example, Marina knew why she had to lie about the Carcano being Lee's rifle. But I'm sure she wondered why Ruth lied about it.

I'll bet that Marina thought Ruth was one of the conspirators, and blamed her for her husband's unwarranted arrest and consequential murder. (Though I need to know more about how much she knew early on what Ruth was saying about her husband. My thoughts on this topic are all tentative.)

The cynic in me tells me that Marina readily got over the pain of losing her husband when she came into big money.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

A guy named Ernst Titovets, a Russian, wrote a book about his discussions and times with LHO in Russia. Apparently they spent a lot of time together discussing literature and ideology. Titovets even has recordings of LHO. 

Might be worth a look. 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

A guy named Ernst Titovets, a Russian, wrote a book about his discussions and times with LHO in Russia. Apparently they spent a lot of time together discussing literature and ideology. Titovets even has recordings of LHO. 

Might be worth a look. 

 

Don't you mean Erich Titovets?

EDIT: Oh, I see that Ernst is like a nickname or something.

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:14 AM, Richard Booth said:

Has anyone on this forum read Norman Mailer's book "Oswald's Tale" ?

I have not read it and do not have a copy. My understanding is that Mailer obtained access to some of the apartment KGB surveillance of Oswald -- but perhaps my recollection is wrong. I know he [Mailer] spent time in Russia writing the book and I seem to recall something about him getting access to this material.

At any rate--I wanted to ask forum members about this and if someone has read that book, and does it offer any insight as to what language Oswald spoke to Marina in, in Russia?

I recall reading somewhere or another that when Oswald was put in the hospital after the fake suicide attempt, the doctors there felt that Oswald could understand their Russian speaking and that he was feigning an inability to understand Russian.

To me, this remains one of the biggest enigmas in this case:

If Marina could not speak English, then that means Oswald had to have spoken to her in Russian. However, it is said that when he was in Russia, Oswald did not speak Russian at all. When John Armstrong visited one of the couples who knew Oswald and Marina in Russia he asked them "how was Oswald's Russian?" and they were shocked by the question, confused perhaps, saying that No, No, he did not speak any Russian.

Then you have Marina saying she was impressed with Oswald's Russian, thinking he might be a native speaker from one of the Baltic states. How do you reconcile this comment with the others in Russia who said he never spoke Russian when he was there?

Then you have this gentleman in Texas who signed a statement or endorsement for Oswald, saying that he could speak the language well enough to serve as a translator.

What do people here think about Oswald's Russian language abilities, whether or not he spoke Russian or concealed that ability when in Russia, and for that matter how do you think that Oswald and Marina communicated? 

Oswald's DLPT score alone indicates that his Russian during his time in the Marines was decent, and this was before he went to Russia. James Norwood presents statements from a number of Russian speakers who knew Oswald and who said he spoke very good Russian:

Oswald's Russian Language Proficiency (harveyandlee.net)

Edited December 4, 2023 by Michael Griffith