A... strange Harold Weisberg clip.

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

I doubt the paper bag issue was the reason why the polygraph results were deep-sixed. Mr. Frazier's firm recollection that the bag he saw Mr. Oswald carry was not the long paper sack was after all allowed to go on the record elsewhere. A 'truthful' result to polygraph questions about the bag could still be explained away as 'His honest subjective memory must be off' (which of course became the WC conclusion on the matter).

No, I think there was something else covered in that polygraph test, and I suspect that something would explain why Mr. Frazier became a person of major interest all of a sudden, to the point where his car was searched in the hospital parking lot even before he was arrested.

Was it perhaps something Mr. Oswald had said in interrogation? 

Your doubt about this is unwarranted. They were told Frazier drove Oswald to work and that he had a rifle. It's only natural he would then become a suspect. 

As far as the polygraph, if you'd read what I posted you'd realize it wasn't just the polygraph that disappeared, but the FBI report on the polygraph in which it was noted that Frazier didn't just say he wasn't sure about the bag shown to him, but outright rejected it. By making these things disappear, this gave the FBI the opportunity to apply further pressure, in hopes Frazier would say "yeah, I guess it could be" or "I think it was". This technique, after all, worked on Brennan. "Yeah, we know he said no, but if we keep trying and pushing maybe we can get him to say yes."

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks for this useful info. I always thought the Frazier polygraph was just a rumour but it looks like it did indeed happen. It's a pity Will Fritz was not asked about this during his WC testimony. But maybe the WC didn't want to go there.

Fritz was asked about it.

Elsewhere in the chapter...

On 12-1-63 we read yet another report about the paper bag roadblock. The FBI still can't figure out how Oswald, or anyone, got the rifle used to kill Kennedy into the building. On 11-29, agent Vincent Drain followed up on agent Anderton's interview of Buell Frazier, in which Frazier mentioned that, oh yeah, he'd taken a lie detector test regarding his refusal to ID the bag. Drain talked to Dallas Police Captain Will Fritz, who confirmed that Frazier had told him on the day of the shooting that the bag he saw was "about two feet in length, and of brown paper." (CD7, p290). Drain then talked to Dallas Detective R.D. Lewis, who confirmed that Frazier, while being given a polygraph test, "was shown what appeared to be a homemade brown heavy paper gun case." Lewis stated further that "Frazier said that it was possible this was the case, but he did not think it resembled it. He stated that the crinkly brown paper sack that Oswald had when he rode to work with him that morning was about two feet long." Detective Lewis also told Drain "that if this was not identical to the sack that was turned over to the Bureau, it is possible that Oswald may have thrown it away." (CD7, p291). Apparently, Lewis believed Frazier.

[Alan Ford]

19 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

What?? Frazier remained in the building for some time after the shooting. He was not listed as missing when they did the "roll call". It's astonishing to think you believe he drove Oswald away from Dealey Plaza. He was a 19 year-old kid, for crying out loud. Not some secret agent or militia type. 

Secret agent or militia type? Talk about a resort to strawman, Mr. Speer!

Now, you write: "Frazier remained in the building for some time after the shooting. He was not listed as missing when they did the "roll call"."

1. Is there any corroboration of Mr. Frazier's own claim to have remained in the building for some time after the shooting. If so, how much time?

2. If there was a "roll call", and if Mr. Oswald was identified as "missing", then don't you find it strange that not a single person thought to ask Mr. Frazier about him? He was after all known by all the guys as Mr. Oswald's sole friend in the place, and the guy who gave Mr. Oswald rides to and from work. But no, Mr. Frazier was just let go.

3. Why has Mr. Frazier over the years changed his story of his post-Dealey Plaza movements, sometimes by hours?

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

3 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Your doubt about this is unwarranted. They were told Frazier drove Oswald to work and that he had a rifle. It's only natural he would then become a suspect. 

Precisely my point: why wasn't Mr. Frazier given any attention when Mr. Oswald was first identified as "missing"? He should have been the very first employee the cops would have wanted to talk to. 

[Alan Ford]

5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as the polygraph, if you'd read what I posted you'd realize it wasn't just the polygraph that disappeared, but the FBI report on the polygraph in which it was noted that Frazier didn't just say he wasn't sure about the bag shown to him, but outright rejected it. By making these things disappear, this gave the FBI the opportunity to apply further pressure, in hopes Frazier would say "yeah, I guess it could be" or "I think it was". This technique, after all, worked on Brennan. "Yeah, we know he said no, but if we keep trying and pushing maybe we can get him to say yes."

An argument both fanciful and incoherent: other rejections by Mr. Frazier of the long paper bag idea were allowed to go on the record.

[Pat Speer]

50 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Precisely my point: why wasn't Mr. Frazier given any attention when Mr. Oswald was first identified as "missing"? He should have been the very first employee the cops would have wanted to talk to. 

A number of people were missing. And Truly saw Oswald in the building acting oblivious to the shooting. As a result, Oswald did not become a prime suspect in the assassination until he was arrested for shooting Tippit. In fact, they didn't decide to even look for him until Fritz returned to the station, at which time he was told "Oswald, yeah, we got him, that's the guy we just brought in on the Tippit shooting." So, that's roughly 2:00. Around that same time, back at the TSBD, they were letting employees leave, Frazier among them.

There's no evidence, moreover, that anyone at the TSBD or elsewhere told the DPD that Frazier sometimes gave Oswald a ride, until Linnie volunteered that info to the cops out in Irving in the hour after that. So Frazier was below the radar until around 3:00. They then went out hunting. Now, there is some confusion as to when they picked him up. He has told myself and others it was in the afternoon--I think he said around 3:00. But the police claimed they picked him up around 5:00, if I recall. Well, I noticed a long time ago that the DPD reports, which were actually written by Fritz's assistants, and for which no signed originals were retained (if in fact they ever existed) are unreliable as to their timing. While it's not something I've looked into it wouldn't surprise me if they lied about the time they picked Frazier up to cover up that they'd arrested him outside their jurisdiction or some such thing.

P.S. In retrospect, I think there is a method to the madness. I realized years ago that the DPD's claim they waited for an hour outside the Paine house before going in was to conceal that they knew about the bag before it was "discovered." Well, seeing as they only searched for Frazier after speaking to Randle outside the Paine house, after their search had begun, they would need to delay the time that they picked him up as well. So that might explain why they made out they'd picked him up hours after he says he was picked up. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

A number of people were missing. And Truly saw Oswald in the building acting oblivious to the shooting.

According to the official story, only Mr. Oswald was treated as a person of major TSBD interest once the 'roll call' was taken. He was the one Mr. Truly drew to the cops' attention.

Now Mr. Frazier says he was at this supposed 'roll call'. Fine, let's run with that. As soon as Mr. Truly reports Mr. Oswald's 'missing' status, folks are asking all about Mr. Oswald. The idea that Mr. Frazier's name will not come up as someone who might be able to offer information beggars belief. As does the idea that no fellow-employee asked Mr. Frazier himself about his friend Lee.

But we're jumping ahead. Is there any corroboration of Mr. Frazier's own claim that he was still on site for quite some time after the assassination? Does any fellow-employee mention him in this time period? In March '64 he says he left the building between 1 and 2 p.m. That's remarkably vague------------he can't remember if he left a good half hour after the shooting or an hour and a half!

Bearing in mind that Frazier testifies that it was only after everyone present had had their details taken that the police officers "told us all that was there could go ahead and go home", let's consider this:

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind [about not needing a ride back after work - A.F.]? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL - Whether you did or not. Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; they didn't.

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Now, there is some confusion as to when they picked him up. He has told myself and others it was in the afternoon--I think he said around 3:00. But the police claimed they picked him up around 5:00, if I recall. Well, I noticed a long time ago that the DPD reports, which were actually written by Fritz's assistants, and for which no signed originals were retained (if in fact they ever existed) are unreliable as to their timing. While it's not something I've looked into it wouldn't surprise me if they lied about the time they picked Frazier up to cover up that they'd arrested him outside their jurisdiction or some such thing.

P.S. In retrospect, I think there is a method to the madness. I realized years ago that the DPD's claim they waited for an hour outside the Paine house before going in was to conceal that they knew about the bag before it was "discovered." Well, seeing as they only searched for Frazier after speaking to Randle outside the Paine house, after their search had begun, they would need to delay the time that they picked him up as well. So that might explain why they made out they'd picked him up hours after he says he was picked up. 

OK, but you're ignoring Mr. Frazier's own wildly changing story on this as to timing.

[Richard Booth]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:41 PM, Tony Krome said:

Sleeping with Wesley now? The rumour list grows. So far we have Marina and Ruth, and Marina and Robert;

In the period just after the assassination, Marina had a brief affair with Lee’s brother, Robert Oswald.

Who's next? Hosty?

Also Marina and Kerry Thornley, didn't Garrison make that insinuation?

It is a little much.

[Pat Speer]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:07 PM, Alan Ford said:

According to the official story, only Mr. Oswald was treated as a person of major TSBD interest once the 'roll call' was taken. He was the one Mr. Truly drew to the cops' attention.

Now Mr. Frazier says he was at this supposed 'roll call'. Fine, let's run with that. As soon as Mr. Truly reports Mr. Oswald's 'missing' status, folks are asking all about Mr. Oswald. The idea that Mr. Frazier's name will not come up as someone who might be able to offer information beggars belief. As does the idea that no fellow-employee asked Mr. Frazier himself about his friend Lee.

But we're jumping ahead. Is there any corroboration of Mr. Frazier's own claim that he was still on site for quite some time after the assassination? Does any fellow-employee mention him in this time period? In March '64 he says he left the building between 1 and 2 p.m. That's remarkably vague------------he can't remember if he left a good half hour after the shooting or an hour and a half!

Bearing in mind that Frazier testifies that it was only after everyone present had had their details taken that the police officers "told us all that was there could go ahead and go home", let's consider this:

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind [about not needing a ride back after work - A.F.]? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL - Whether you did or not. Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; they didn't.

There were several office people who never came back from lunch, as I recall. But they were not of much interest, as the DPD was focusing on someone else. Charles Givens. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they put an APB out on Givens well before Oswald's arrest. I mean, he was black and had a criminal record, and had not returned from lunch. That's a prime suspect pretty much anywhere, but especially in Dallas. 

[Matt Allison]

The FBI tested the tape used to construct the rifle sack and couldn't trace its origin to any tape dispenser at the Paine house.

 

 

Edited June 16 by Matt Allison

[Richard Booth]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:59 PM, Miles Massicotte said:

At 1:21:05 in the linked video below Harold Weisberg mentions that the purpose of the Buell Wesley Frazier polygraph was to ask Buell if he had been sleeping with Marina, and Buell answered yes. 

The Buell Frazier polygraph has never surfaced. I wouldn't normally take this seriously, but I generally like Weisberg and find him to be well sourced. Does anyone know anything about this??? It is certainly wild if true...

I think there was a bit more to it than just that one query.

The polygraph seems to be a part of the overall intimidation of Frazier. I mean, they put in front of Frazier a confession to sign!  They took into custody his Enfield rifle and ammo. It looks a lot like the DPD was ready to frame his ass if he didn't play ball.

I suspect he made up that story about "curtain rods" to please them so they would have a witness they could use to attest to Oswald bringing a rifle into the building. 

What is interesting is that Frazier used to have a job fulfilling orders for curtain rods. Specifically that product. Seems like he invented that entirely, fabricating something that made some sense to him personally from his own personal experience.

I think Frazier was going to be made a part of the conspiracy, arrested and tried as an accomplice, if he did not go along, and it seems he half-ass went along to save his ass.

When you see Frazier talking about Lee Oswald he very often gets damn near tears. I think it's because he feels guilty for making up something.

[Richard Booth]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:44 AM, Alan Ford said:

3. Why has Mr. Frazier over the years changed his story of his post-Dealey Plaza movements, sometimes by hours?

And why did he change his story for his book?  And why does he damn near burst into weeping when he talks about Lee Oswald? 

Rob Clark convinced me that there is something wrong with Buell Wesley Frazier's account. I have not figured it out but someone else will, eventually.

[Pat Speer]

3 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

And why did he change his story for his book?  And why does he damn near burst into weeping when he talks about Lee Oswald? 

Rob Clark convinced me that there is something wrong with Buell Wesley Frazier's account. I have not figured it out but someone else will, eventually.

FWIW, I created a database of witness statements on my website, which included not just what they told the DPD, FBI, and Warren Commission, but what they said in the years afterward. And most every witness' story changed over time. This is actually pretty normal. While people like to believe our memories (which form our reality) are written in stone, it's more like scribbled in mud, whereby it changes with the weather and the passage of time, especially when trampled upon.