Theorist shamers should be ashamed of themselves.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

If there were two Oswalds (and I believe there were) then the records that Jim presented show that both the one that went to Taiwan and the one who stayed in Japan, being treated for VD, both had the same military service number, 1653230.

 

 

The two Oswalds would have been placed in different units. The military had to have been cooperating with an intelligence service in order to keep two separate sets of records.

I've never thought the two Oswalds looked liked twins... only that the could have passed for one another in situations where other people wouldn't have become acquainted with their specific looks.

 

Is this something that might be revealed if the JFK Records were to be released? 

[Jim Hargrove]

My bet is that any “smoking guns” in the remaining documents were scrubbed long ago, but I’d love to be wrong on that.

Government records (federal and local) about “Lee Harvey Oswald” is a fascinating subject.  One Oswald clearly had a valid Texas drivers license while the other did not.  There are fascinating Social Security oddities about “LHO as well.  And then there is this note from John A’s book, Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: Following the assassination of President Kennedy, US Senator Richard Russell
(a member of the Warren Commission) asked former Army Intelligence office Colonel
Phillip Corso to conduct a discreet inquiry into the assassination. After contacting Francis
Knight, head of the US Passport Office, Corso reported to Senator Russell that Knight
had told him there were two passports issued to "Lee Harvey Oswald" and they had been
used by two different people. 66

Endnote 66 reads:

66. Anthony Summers, Official and Confidential, the Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover (New York) 1993, p. 322; Authors interview with Phillip Corso, 1996.

Phillip Corso wrote a book about spooky dealings involving possibly alien technology at Roswell, and for that reason some people discredit him, but it seems worthwhile to at least keep his claim in mind.  Corso did have an extensive background in US Army Intell.

[Pamela Brown]

For anyone who is tempted to consider the possibility of 'two Oswalds' "farfetched", or worse, let us keep in mind the furor that followed publication of Michal Eddowes book The Oswald File, where he claimed this was the case.

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKeddowes.htm

Subsequent to that, the body of Lee Oswald in Rosehill Cemetary was exhumed and determined to be the same person who was killed on 11.24.63.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0L32FE/

But did that answer everyone's questions? Hardly...

In addition, many of the files that are still being suppressed have to do with Lee Oswald.  

Certainly we can agree to keep an open mind to those who are pursuing research of whether there was more than one LHO or a series of imposters, as I don't think anyone will disagree that at various points in LHO's history, there was at the least someone impersonating him..

 

Edited January 21 by Pamela Brown

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My bet is that any “smoking guns” in the remaining documents were scrubbed long ago, but I’d love to be wrong on that.

Government records (federal and local) about “Lee Harvey Oswald” is a fascinating subject.  One Oswald clearly had a valid Texas drivers license while the other did not.  There are fascinating Social Security oddities about “LHO as well.  And then there is this note from John A’s book, Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: Following the assassination of President Kennedy, US Senator Richard Russell
(a member of the Warren Commission) asked former Army Intelligence office Colonel
Phillip Corso to conduct a discreet inquiry into the assassination. After contacting Francis
Knight, head of the US Passport Office, Corso reported to Senator Russell that Knight
had told him there were two passports issued to "Lee Harvey Oswald" and they had been
used by two different people. 66

Endnote 66 reads:

66. Anthony Summers, Official and Confidential, the Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover (New York) 1993, p. 322; Authors interview with Phillip Corso, 1996.

Phillip Corso wrote a book about spooky dealings involving possibly alien technology at Roswell, and for that reason some people discredit him, but it seems worthwhile to at least keep his claim in mind.  Corso did have an extensive background in US Army Intell.

JH--

1. Of course, we don't know what we don't know about the fake US government's suppression of the JFK Records. What is in there?

2. But you and others contend enough material, likely mistakenly, was left to raise questions about two LHOs.

3. Ergo, I conclude other mistakes could have been in scrubbing the records, and so there may be more clues to a possible LHO double in the records. 

In general, I suspect that LHO was an intel-state asset, and that is what is being suppressed by Merrick Garland and the Justice Department at this time. 

However, if there were two LHOs, then maybe there is more material about that. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

3. Ergo, I conclude other mistakes could have been in scrubbing the records, and so there may be more clues to a possible LHO double in the records.

 

Ben,

A lot of mistakes were made, and Jim Hargrove has a ton of evidence for two boy-Oswalds.

For example, school records show that Oswald attended two different schools simultaneously. (Beauregard Junior High and P.S. 44). And, also regarding schools, the Warren Commission has records for him attending one school during another school year (I forget the name), and yet everybody in his family testified that he went to a different school, Stripling Junior High. Plus the assistant principal of Stripling recalls the FBI taking Oswalds records from Stripling, never to be returned. (He's interviewed on videotape.)

And on and on.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben,

A lot of mistakes were made, and Jim Hargrove has a ton of evidence for two boy-Oswalds.

For example, school records show that Oswald attended two different schools simultaneously. (Beauregard Junior High and P.S. 44). And, also regarding schools, the Warren Commission has records for him attending one school during another school year (I forget the name), and yet everybody in his family testified that he went to a different school, Stripling Junior High. Plus the assistant principal of Stripling recalls the FBI taking Oswalds records from Stripling, never to be returned. (He's interviewed on videotape.)

And on and on.

 

So, there could be even more lapses in scrubbing in the suppressed records...right? 

And not just regarding LHO and a possible double, but on other topics as well? 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The two Oswalds would have been placed in different units. The military had to have been cooperating with an intelligence service in order to keep two separate sets of records.

 

The following comment was made in another thread:

 

Quote

Regarding the MFF lawsuit, Lawrence Schnapf said :

We have accounts that a ONI investigation on oswald was done in the weeks after the assassination and the investigatve materials were stored at naval bases around the world so they would not be found if a record search was done  in DC.

 

The results of this ONI investigation may have uncovered the two sets of military records I conjectured above.

 

@Benjamin Cole @Jim Hargrove

 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The following comment was made in another thread:

 

 

The results of this ONI investigation may have uncovered the two sets of military records I conjectured above.

 

@Benjamin Cole @Jim Hargrove

 

Man, I would love to see those records. Whatever they contain. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

I don't give a rat's flying tail whether or not you or anybody else thinks my or anybody else's theories are far fetched.

I suppose that's the closest Sandy will get to admitting that a reasonable member of the public would consider his pet theories to be far-fetched (or worse).

Sandy ought to be concerned about this. By promoting ideas which are far-fetched, he is playing a small part in harming the chances of getting the JFK assassination resolved. If the general public associates criticism of the lone-nut dogma with the sort of far-fetched stuff Sandy promotes, the case is unlikely to get resolved.

Quote

That's not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is that Sandy would prefer people not to point out that far-fetched theories are far-fetched, because he personally believes in those far-fetched theories.

Of course we should be able to describe far-fetched (or crackpot, or whack-job) theories as far-fetched (or crackpot, or whack-job) theories. If someone puts forward a theory which a reasonable member of the public would consider laughable and no better than Jack 'I thought up the Harvey and Lee nonsense' White's theories that the moon landings were faked and that no planes hit the World Trade Center, of course we should be able to point that out, even if Sandy himself agrees with that laughable theory.

Quote

I've explained my position to you numerous times

All Sandy has explained numerous times is that people define 'far-fetched' in different ways. I have pointed out that if there is no agreed definition of 'far-fetched', the term is meaningless.

I've put forward a definition which I think most of us would agree on. I'd still be interested to find out why Sandy promotes theories which he knows would be considered far-fetched (or worse) by reasonable members of the public.

Or, if he doesn't want to admit that his pet theories are far-fetched (or worse), where would he draw the line, and how would he justify that definition?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

As has been mentioned elsewhere, is it really a good idea to entrust the running of the forum to someone who actively promotes ideas that a reasonable person would consider to be far-fetched?

Members who have disagreed with some of Sandy's far-fetched views have already had their posts accidentally removed (Miles Massicotte), or been suspended (Jonathan Cohen), or been threatened with suspension (Pat Speer). No doubt such events are coincidental, but it's the sort of thing that might tempt serious researchers to stay away, or even to abandon study of the assassination altogether (the example of Lee Farley comes to mind). At some point, this forum may contain little other than propagandists trying to sell whack-job theories to gullible newbies. To be honest, it's not far from that state at the moment.

Ideally, moderators should be people who do not promote controversial ideas. Any volunteers?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Pamela Brown writes:

Quote

whether there was more than one LHO or a series of imposters, as I don't think anyone will disagree that at various points in LHO's history, there was at the least someone impersonating him.

There's good evidence that in the run-up to the assassination, Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City, and perhaps also in Dallas. People sometimes get impersonated; it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. There's nothing far-fetched about the idea.

But this is completely different from the proposition that Oswald was a pair of doppelgängers, part of a CIA scheme set up when they were boys and carried on for a decade or more. Not only is this idea preposterous on its face, since there is no evidence that such a scheme has ever happened in real life, but there is no direct evidence to support the claim that it happened in this case: no CIA memos, no statements from whistle-blowers, no records identifying the Oswald boy doppelgänger or the Oswald mother doppelgänger.

It is an invention by a crackpot who thought the moon landings didn't happen.

Quote

the body of Lee Oswald in Rosehill Cemetary was exhumed and determined to be the same person who was killed on 11.24.63.

And more importantly, it was the body of the same person who had undergone a mastoidectomy operation at the age of six: that's how the pathologists knew that it was Oswald's body.

But according to H&L mythology, the person who was buried in Fort Worth was not the same person who underwent the mastoidectomy operation at the age of six. According to the mythology, it was an Oswald doppelgänger who was buried in Fort Worth. You can find out more about this aspect of the mythology here:

http://22november1963.org.uk/john-armstrong-harvey-and-lee-theory

This is just about the most conclusive proof you could expect to find that the H&L mythology is an invention. The only way to resurrect the mythology is (a) to propose that the Oswald doppelgänger too had undergone a mastoidectomy operation, and (b) to provide evidence that this operation actually happened. Of course, no such evidence has been provided: no hospital records, no statements from medical personnel, nothing. The H&L mythology is an invention.

[Pamela Brown]

Jeremy,

I may need to clarify my point.

I am not persuaded at this time that there were 'two LHO's'.  However, as the issue of people impersonating LHO is of significance and so many LHO documents are still being suppressed, I am keeping an open mind...

Edited January 22 by Pamela Brown

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It is an invention by a crackpot who thought the moon landings didn't happen.

Insults aren’t necessary to discuss the facts.  

Among the people who have expressed a belief that two Oswalds may have existed for an extended period of time are John Armstrong, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, Joseph McBride, Pat Shannan, George Schwimmer, David Mantik, David Josephs, Sandy Larsen, Robert Groden, and James Norwood, among others that I’m undoubtedly forgetting.  These people are not crackpots!

Perhaps Mr. B can tell us how it is that “Lee Harvey Oswald,” who dropped out of high school in his freshman year, and while in the Marines and before he ever set foot in the Soviet Union, scored essentially the same grades on a Russian language exam as on English language tests?  

On the mastoidectomy, I think it was Harvey Oswald who had it and not Lee.  As soon as he learned about the mastoidectomy issue, I think Hoover faked a document, as he faked so many others, so the historical records would match the dead Harvey Oswald’s body.  There is no medical evidence found for Harvey’s mastoidectomy because it was most likely performed outside the United States, before he was brought to the US.

[Jim Hargrove]

Before I’m called a crackpot for believing the FBI forged documents in this case, let me show some evidence that three alleged W-2 forms for “Lee Harvey Oswald” were actually created in 1964 by the FBI.  This was done to merge the identities of Harvey and Lee Oswald and pretend it was possible that one LHO could have worked at two different companies a total of three different times and attend junior high and high school prior to joining the US Marine Corps. Here are the three forms:

Note that these documents are NOT initialed by Dallas police, who supposedly initialed every item, including every scrap of paper, found among Oswald’s possessions.  In fact, the W-2 forms did not appear among Oswald’s so-called possessions until the FBI had quietly taken possession of them and returned them, vastly expanded, to DPD on November 26.

In the late 1990s, I helped John send high-quality blow-ups he had made of these forms to Dawn Stanford, an archivist at the IBM Corporation who maintained an enormous collection of typewriter fonts from machines all over the world.  In a follow-up phone conversation, Dawn noted that the characters on each of these W-2 forms appeared to be identical. In her words these W-2 forms "were typed with the same typewriter," and on close inspection, she considered the font to be unusual.  What is the possibility that two different companies on three different occasions would use the same unusual typewriter to prepare different W-2 forms for “Lee Harvey Oswald?”

Of course, the Social Security Administration could easily confirm the accuracy or lack thereof of the W-2 forms, but a funny thing happened to the HSCA.  In the following letter, the Social Security Administration indicated: “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”  The Warren Report to explain all this?

-------------

------------

The FBI apparently faked the W-2 forms shown above, and other documents, to make the existence of the two Oswalds go away. Why?  Because it would expose the Oswald Project, which would lead directly to U.S. Intelligence.

Edited January 22 by Jim Hargrove

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The point of this thread is that Sandy would prefer people not to point out that far-fetched theories are far-fetched, because he personally believes in those far-fetched theories.

 

The point of this thread has nothing to do with what I personally believe. The point of this thread is that shaming people for their beliefs tends to shut down conversations (which is YOUR ADMITTED GOAL) rather than letting the evidence decide whether a theory has merit or not.

You should be ashamed for your tactic. One that I believe to be dishonest.