Theorist shamers should be ashamed of themselves.

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Ideally, moderators should be people who do not promote controversial ideas.

 

Why? So you can go on shaming without fear of being penalized for ridiculing forum members?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JH--

1. Of course, we don't know what we don't know about the fake US government's suppression of the JFK Records. What is in there?

2. But you and others contend enough material, likely mistakenly, was left to raise questions about two LHOs.

3. Ergo, I conclude other mistakes could have been in scrubbing the records, and so there may be more clues to a possible LHO double in the records. 

In general, I suspect that LHO was an intel-state asset, and that is what is being suppressed by Merrick Garland and the Justice Department at this time. 

However, if there were two LHOs, then maybe there is more material about that. 

That all sounds right to me.  Whoever is assigned to “clean up” the docs needs an intimate knowledge of the official biography of Classic Oswald®, as well as a thorough understanding of the conflicting evidence that has survived.  Over the years, MANY mistakes were made by the cover-up agents.  No doubt it isn’t easy to make an entire life disappear.

Sandy quoted a post by Lawrence Schnapf which said, in part, “We have accounts that a ONI investigation on oswald was done in the weeks after the assassination and the investigatve materials were stored at naval bases around the world so they would not be found if a record search was done  in DC.”

Like you, I sure would like to know what is in those documents, but I’ll be surprised if we ever see them.  But I do think the best avenue to decipher this case is to understand the Oswald Project, and learn how it was used to create a designated patsy in this case. "I'm just a patsy," the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby said in televised coverage.   
 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Insults aren’t necessary to discuss the facts.

Calling Jack White a crackpot isn't an insult. As I pointed out, he believed not only that the moon landings didn't actually happen but also that no planes hit the World Trade Center. Anyone who believes either of these things, let alone both of them, qualifies as a crackpot by most people's definition of the term.

And he also helped to think up the double-doppelgänger nonsense, a scenario which is just as far-fetched as those other two scenarios.

Why would a reasonable member of the public consider the H&L double-doppelgänger scenario to be far-fetched? Because it is something that simply doesn't happen in real life.

There are plenty of real-life examples of people being impersonated, but there don't appear to be any real-life examples of two unrelated boys being chosen at any early age in the hope that when they grew up they would turn out to be virtually identical, as well as two unrelated women also being chosen, and that years later the two unrelated boys and the two unrelated women would indeed turn out to be virtually identical (let alone all the other preposterous elements of the theory).

Two pairs of doppelgängers, maintained by the CIA for more than a decade, and each pair of doppelgängers just happening to turn out virtually identical! How many examples are there of intelligence organisations even proposing to set up such a scheme, let alone giving it the green light, let alone actually putting it into practice and carrying it on for more than a decade?

We have access these days to records from many intelligence organisations, on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Where are the memos discussing long-term double-doppelgänger schemes? Where are the documents identifying possible doppelgänger boys and possible doppelgänger mothers? Where are any of the numerous other documents that such a scheme would have generated?

There's no direct evidence that any such scheme has ever happened anywhere in the world, is there?

[Jim Hargrove]

Jack White made some preposterous claims in the last years of his life, but he was, and still should be, a highly respected JFK researcher and photo analyst.  He was consulted by the HSCA, publicly testified, and was apparently threatened with contempt if he presented his study of multiple Oswalds to the Committee.

Although Harvey and Lee had some similarities in their appearances, we have evidence indicating they were not, as you claim, “virtually identical.”  Evidence supplied by medical personnel (not just casual observers) indicates that Lee was two inches taller than Harvey and 20 pounds or so heaver. Texas Employment Commission interviewer Laura Kittrell met both Oswalds and told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the two young men were “much alike in size, shape and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner.” 

When American Intel began grooming a Russian-speaking youth to eventually assume the identity of an American-born boy, both Oswalds were children, not even teenagers.  Both kids obviously had to have caretakers.  To maintain the charade, the caretaker “mom” had to have the same name as the mother of the American-born Oswald.  If the photos we have are legitimate and accurately identified (they may well not be) phony Marguerite was not selected because she looked much like the real mother.  She was not a true doppelganger, at least from her appearance.

There are clear examples of long-term impersonations used in spycraft.  For example:

Russian Spy Gordon Lonsdale/Konon Molody
 

A 

 

A Russian named Konon Molody, born in Moscow in 1922, was sent to Berkley, California at the age of seven to learn English and develop familiarity with American customs.  Ten years later, he returned to the USSR, was commissioned in the Soviet Navy, and started espionage training.

By 1954, Molody sailed to Canada with a birth certificate and other paperwork for a Canadian named  Gordon Arnold Lonsdale who had died c. 1943.  As “Gordon Lonsdale,” Molody had a significant career as a Soviet spy, including interactions with Rudolph Abel in the U.S. and with the British military.  He was convicted of espionage in London in 1961.

Cuban Spies Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia
 

The book “Castro’s Final Hour” included a photograph of Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia, top spies for Cuba during the 1960s, ‘70s, and ‘80s. They were identical twins, useful, among other ways, for providing an alibi when one or the other got in trouble.

Mossad officer Michael Ross

More recently, a fellow named Michael Ross was born in British Columbia in 1961. He traveled to Israel in 1982 where he eventually married an Israeli woman and joined the Mossad.  According to the Canadian daily National Post (1/14/12), “Over the next 14 years, the Canadian-Israeli assumed six different identities — one cover lasted a full seven years — and led a life wildly different from the one his family believed true so he could gather intelligence and seduce defectors.”

And the, of course, we have our most familiar case:

 

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Why would a reasonable member of the public consider the H&L double-doppelgänger scenario to be far-fetched? Because it is something that simply doesn't happen in real life.

 

But we have plenty of evidence that it HAS happened in real life! Jim Hargrove presents the evidence here on this forum from time to time.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Jack White made some preposterous claims in the last years of his life, but he was, and still should be, a highly respected JFK researcher and photo analyst.

Among those preposterous claims were:

• The moon landings were faked
• Oswald and his mother were part of a long-term double-doppelgänger scheme
• No planes hit the World Trade Center

'Crackpot' is an appropriate word for anyone who publicly promoted such nonsense. As for White's lack of ability as a photographic analyst, this was illustrated during his HSCA testimony. See Proceedings of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, vol. 2, pp. 338-344:

https://www.clavius.org/white-test.html

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

All three of Jim's "clear examples of long-term impersonations used in spycraft" fail to answer the question I asked. None of the cases he mentions provide direct evidence for an H&L-type scenario:

• Konon Molodiy (aka Gordon Lonsdale) was not a pair of unrelated doppelgängers recruited as boys and raised in separate households under the guidance of a national intelligence organisation. Nor, as far as we know, was his mother a pair of unrelated doppelgängers. Molodiy was one person who took on a false identity in his thirties.
• Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia were a pair of identical twins, not a pair of unrelated doppelgängers recruited as boys and raised in separate households by a national intelligence orgainsation. Their mother was not, as far as we know, a pair of unrelated doppelgängers.
• Michael Ross was one person who took on false identities as an adult. He was not a pair of unrelated doppelgängers recruited as boys and raised in separate households by a national intelligence orgainsation. His mother too appears not to have been a pair of unrelated doppelgängers.

The last time I brought up this point, perhaps two or three years ago, Jim offered these examples and that of Mata Hari. Needless to say, Mata Hari was not a pair of unrelated doppelgängers recruited as girls and raised in separate households by a national intelligence orgainsation; nor was her mother a pair of unrelated doppelgängers. At least Jim didn't bother to mention Mata Hari this time. We're making progress, slowly.

This illustrates the point I was making. There appears to be no direct evidence in the historical record, anywhere in the world, of a scheme with the essential characteristics of the 'Harvey and Lee' double-doppelgänger scheme:

• Two unrelated children recruited by an intelligence organisation in the hope that when they grew up they would be so close in appearance that they would be mistaken for one another.
• Two unrelated women recruited into the scheme who also were virtually identical; one of the women being the mother of one of the children, while the other woman was unrelated to any of the other three participants.
• (Not to mention the other nonsensical aspects of H&L mythology, such as recruiting one of the boys specifically for his native ability to speak a foreign language, only for the scheme's administrators to allow him to forget so much of the language that he had to learn it all over again, thereby defeating the whole purpose of the scheme. But we'll ignore those aspects for now.)

As far as we can tell, no such scheme has ever happened in real life, and there is no direct evidence that it happened in this case.

It is not unreasonable to expect direct evidence to exist, if the schemes existed. If one intelligence agency thought a scheme like this was obviously practical enough to be worth implementing, other intelligence agencies would surely have considered implementing such a scheme too. Each agency might well have done so more than once. Because the chance was slim that any given pair of unrelated boys would turn out to look virtually identical a decade later, each agency would have had to set up several such schemes in the hope that one of them might produce the goods.

Numerous documents would have been generated, many of which we could expect to have been released to the public over the last few decades. But no documents exist which specifically refer to the implementation of such a scheme:

• There are no memos discussing setting up such a scheme.
• There are no memos giving the go-ahead for such a scheme.
• There are no memos identifying candidates for the role of doppelgänger boy and doppelgänger mother.
• There are no progress reports on each scheme ("13th birthday: Boys identical! 14th birthday: Boys still identical! 15th birthday: Gosh darn it! Let's close this one down and see if scheme number 27 turns out OK").

That's what I meant when I pointed out that any reasonable person would consider the H&L double-doppelgänger scheme to be far-fetched (or worse). Schemes like this simply don't happen in real life.

[Robert Reeves]

52 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jim Hargrove writes:

Among those preposterous claims were:

• The moon landings were faked
• Oswald and his mother were part of a long-term double-doppelgänger scheme
• No planes hit the World Trade Center

'Crackpot' is an appropriate word for anyone who publicly promoted such nonsense. As for White's lack of ability as a photographic analyst, this was illustrated during his HSCA testimony. See Proceedings of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, vol. 2, pp. 338-344:

https://www.clavius.org/white-test.html

You're so vocal about what people should be freely able to investigate and come to their own conclusions. Sandy Larsen is right to publicly out bullying types of personalities such as yours.

[Sean Coleman]

47 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jim Hargrove writes:

Among those preposterous claims were:

• The moon landings were faked
• Oswald and his mother were part of a long-term double-doppelgänger scheme
• No planes hit the World Trade Center

'Crackpot' is an appropriate word for anyone who publicly promoted such nonsense. As for White's lack of ability as a photographic analyst, this was illustrated during his HSCA testimony. See Proceedings of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, vol. 2, pp. 338-344:

https://www.clavius.org/white-test.html

Pythagoras believed a human lost a bit of his soul whenever he farted…
John Quincy Adams believed ‘mole people’ lived beneath us underground….
Martin Luther often ate a spoonful of his own feces due to its health qualities…
Arthur Conan Doyle massively believed in the spirit world and afterlife….
Isaac Newton strived for the philosophers stone so he could turn base metal into gold…

My point is, sometimes an intelligent rational person can have some strange views on life. Doesn’t mean everything they advocate is total rubbish.

JW’s (weirdly produced) doc on the back yard photos is a must see. Makes total sense. Keystoning was the answer!!

[Pamela Brown]

I knew Jack White and respect what he accomplished. 

[Bill Brown]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:33 AM, Ron Bulman said:

If there is Shame for a conspiracy theory, it should start with the Warren Omission.  It was the original sin. Promulgated by Dulles, McCloy and Ford, with assistance from Belin and Specter among others.  The greatest farce ever perpetrated on the United States populace at the time.  An unsupported, destroyed theory itself.

 

You haven't even read any of the Warren Commission report and/or testimony.  How would you know?

 

[Bill Brown]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:31 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

As has been mentioned elsewhere, is it really a good idea to entrust the running of the forum to someone who actively promotes ideas that a reasonable person would consider to be far-fetched?

Members who have disagreed with some of Sandy's far-fetched views have already had their posts accidentally removed (Miles Massicotte), or been suspended (Jonathan Cohen), or been threatened with suspension (Pat Speer). No doubt such events are coincidental, but it's the sort of thing that might tempt serious researchers to stay away, or even to abandon study of the assassination altogether (the example of Lee Farley comes to mind). At some point, this forum may contain little other than propagandists trying to sell whack-job theories to gullible newbies. To be honest, it's not far from that state at the moment.

Ideally, moderators should be people who do not promote controversial ideas. Any volunteers?

 

For what it's worth...

I consider many of Sandy Larsen's posts to be of the "far-fetched" variety.

I also consider Sandy Larsen to be a fair Moderator.

Jeremy, one can't possess both characteristics?

 

[Pat Speer]

14 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jim Hargrove writes:

Among those preposterous claims were:

• The moon landings were faked
• Oswald and his mother were part of a long-term double-doppelgänger scheme
• No planes hit the World Trade Center

'Crackpot' is an appropriate word for anyone who publicly promoted such nonsense. As for White's lack of ability as a photographic analyst, this was illustrated during his HSCA testimony. See Proceedings of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, vol. 2, pp. 338-344:

https://www.clavius.org/white-test.html

You might find it interesting to know that Jack was a long-time member of this forum, and that even he had limits. He had a falling-out with Fetzer as I recall over Judyth Baker. Fetzer wanted to push her story but White (and Lifton) both said no dice. Not buying it. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Several people have used a quote that looks like this:

========================

Jim Hargrove writes:

Among those preposterous claims were:

• The moon landings were faked
• Oswald and his mother were part of a long-term double-doppelgänger scheme
• No planes hit the World Trade Center

'Crackpot' is an appropriate word for anyone who publicly promoted such nonsense. As for White's lack of ability as a photographic analyst, this was illustrated during his HSCA testimony. See Proceedings of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, vol. 2, pp. 338-344:

========================

I DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS.  JEREMY BOJCZUK DID.  IT IS A QUOTING ANOMALY.  I ADMIRED JACK WHITE ENORMOUSLY.  

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

You haven't even read any of the Warren Commission report and/or testimony.  How would you know?

 

Au contraire.  I've read a good bit of Ruth and Michael Paine and Marina's testimony, which is good reason alone to doubt it.  The contradictions, manipulations, misquotes are almost innumerable (though it seems like someone may have done that).   I've not studied the entire report in depth, as few have, and I suspect you have not. 

I do have an original Hardback copy of the Associated Press 366 page version of The Warren Report from 1964.

Found it in a house my wife grew up in, by then used for storage.  Mother-in-law said keep it.  I thought I should read it for perspective.  This was in the later 1990's, I'd read a couple of the Mafia did it books plus Seth Kantor's The Ruby Cover Up.  Seen JFK, read High Treason, Best Evidence.

I got to page 359 and read, "Based on the evaluation of the record, however, (!) the Commission believes that the evidence does not establish a significant link between Ruby and organized crime."

I threw the book at the wall and yelled Bullshit!  Where it layed for several days.  And which is most likely why those last few pages are now detached from the spline.