Theorist shamers should be ashamed of themselves.

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

To me it looks like 8/29/58 refers to the date printed on a schedule authorization letter.  9/14/58 refers to the diary/scheduled date. (i.e. the date the Skagit embarks.) Then any exceptions to that date are specified on the diary page. For example, USS Catamount was scheduled to leave the base on 9/5/58 instead of the 9/14/58 diary date.

Note that the 9/5/58 entry lists the number of officers and enlisted men who left the Skagit early and embarked on USS Catamount instead.

 

After looking at it again I think you are right. 8/29/58 was the date of the authorization letter approving the embarkment. 

[Greg Doudna]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:52 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Unless Tom has more information, I’m going with our original date of Sept. 14, 1958, but whether we use Tom’s date or the WC’s, there is just no way one Oswald could have appeared all those times at the hospital in Japan throughout the second half of September while he was in Taiwan and sailing the 1400 miles back and forth (a total of 2800 miles).

Jack R. Swike, The Missing Chapter: Lee Harvey Oswald in the Far East 2008), loaded to the gills with primary documents, is quite emphatic that Oswald did not go to Taiwan. See chapter 14, "Taiwan", with documents shown there, pp. 192-209.

Edited January 19 by Greg Doudna

[Benjamin Cole]

It has been posited there were two Oswalds, working in somewhat close proximity to each for a couple years, in the Marine Corp...but no one back then ever noticed. 

No Marine has ever said, "I saw the two Oswalds in the same room (mess hall, etc)." 

Or, "I thought there were Oswald twins, or brothers who looked a lot alike". 

Has anyone, either in the Marine Corps or otherwise, in schools or jobs or other organizations, ever said they saw the two Oswalds together? 

That would be an interesting revelation. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Jack R. Swike, The Missing Chapter: Lee Harvey Oswald in the Far East 2008), loaded to the gills with primary documents, is quite emphatic that Oswald did not go to Taiwan. See chapter 14, "Taiwan", with documents shown there, pp. 192-209.

 

Well of course author Swike wrote that Oswald didn't go to Taiwan. I mean, had he gone to Taiwan, then how could he have been treated for VD in Japan at the same time? That he wrote what he did is a no-brainer. (Greg Parker probably wrote the same in his book on Oswald.)

Jim has even presented the evidence making Swike's point.

The question is, does Swike explain how it is that Oswald is on record for being in Taiwan?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

The question is, does Swike explain how it is that Oswald is on record for being in Taiwan?

 

@Jim Hargrove Do you have any other evidence that Oswald was actually in Taiwan?

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

Everybody can decide for themselves what is and isn't farfetched.

Indeed they can. But that's the problem. When people use different definitions of a term, that term becomes meaningless. We need an agreed definition of the term 'far-fetched'.

If Sandy doesn't like his pet theories being described as far-fetched, he needs to tell us what he means by 'far-fetched'.

I've explained what I mean by 'far-fetched', and how it applies to certain claims about the JFK assassination. A reasonable, intelligent member of the public with no preconceived ideas about the assassination would describe certain claims as far-fetched and other claims as not far-fetched. For example:

• An eye-witness made a mistake when recalling an event : not far-fetched.
• Someone made a mistake when filling in a form : not far-fetched.
• A witness was coerced into changing his or her testimony : not far-fetched.
• An item of evidence was planted at a crime scene : not far-fetched.
• Oswald was impersonated in the weeks before the assassination : not far-fetched.
• Oswald was one of two unrelated boys recruited by the CIA at an early age, along with his mother and an unrelated woman who played the role of mother to the other boy : far-fetched.
• The two Oswald boys were almost identical in appearance, despite being unrelated to each other, except that one of them had a 13-inch head : far-fetched.
• The two Oswald mothers were almost identical in appearance, despite being unrelated to each other, apart from their eyebrows : far-fetched.
• One of the Oswald doppelgängers was recruited specifically for his knowledge of Russian, only for him to be allowed to forget so much of his Russian that he had to learn the language again, thereby defeating the whole point of recruiting him in the first place : off-the-scale far-fetched.
• One of the Oswald doppelgängers and one of the mother doppelgängers disappeared from the face of the earth immediately after the murder of the real, one-and-only Oswald by Jack Ruby, with no explanation of where they went or how their disappearance came about : far-fetched.
• One of the Oswald doppelgängers, the doppelgänger who disappeared without trace, was given a mastoidectomy operation at the age of six, only for the other doppelgänger's body, decades later, to show conclusive evidence of having undergone the mastoidectomy operation : you-can't-be-serious far-fetched.
• One of the adult Oswald doppelgängers magically changed his height, being 5' 11" tall on one occasion and 5' 6" tall on another occasion : how-can-anyone-believe-this-nonsense far-fetched.

The reasonable member of the public would describe these claims as far-fetched because such things would not fit with his or her experience of how the world works.

People often recall events inaccurately, or make mistakes in written documents. More rarely, people get impersonated for one reason or another. But people do not grow or shrink by 5 inches within a short period of time, or acquire damage to their bones from operations they didn't undergo, or have 13-inch heads, etc. As far as the reasonable member of the public is concerned, these sorts of things simply do not happen in real life.

Sandy would agree with this definition of 'far-fetched', wouldn't he? If not, why not?

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

If Sandy doesn't like his pet theories being described as far-fetched, he needs to tell us what he means by 'far-fetched'.

 

I don't give a rat's flying tail whether or not you or anybody else thinks my or anybody else's theories are far fetched. That's not the point of this thread.

 

19 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Sandy would agree with this definition of 'far-fetched', wouldn't he? If not, why not?

 

I've explained my position to you numerous times and I'm not going to do it again. For some reason it never sinks in.

You're like a broken record player that infinitely keeps repeating itself.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

@Jim Hargrove Do you have any other evidence that Oswald was actually in Taiwan?

 

Absolutely!  There is a ton of evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was stationed near Ping Tung, Taiwan (aka Formosa) at the very same time he was being treated for VD in Japan, two locations roughly 1400 miles apart.  I’ve already shown in this very thread the DoD report indicating he was shipped to the “South China Sea area” on 9/14/1958 and the USMC unit diaryindicating he was in Ping-Tung, Taiwan a couple of weeks later. 

But there’s much more evidence than this.

Marguerite Oswald told the Warren Commission, "Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, Lee was in Formosa."

Priscilla Johnson interviewed Harvey Oswald at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow in 1959.  She wrote, “At 17 he entered the Marine Corps and was discharged in September, having spent 14 months in Japan, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Formosa [Taiwan]....”

A U.S. Navy message dated November 4, 1959 said that “Oswald served with Marine Air Control Squadrons in Japan and Taiwan with duties involving ground control intercept.”

 

A message from the Chief of Naval Operations to “ALSUNA” in Moscow said, “Oswald served with the Marine Air Control Squadron operations in Japan and Taiwan.”

There is plenty more evidence, a lot, indicating Oswald was in Formosa, but are people here so desperate to discredit Harvey and Lee that they will seriously argue Oswald was not in Formosa?  Really? 

Why don’t you folks just relax and let the truth settle in?  For most of its existence, that Oswald Project was an entirely patriotic program.  It just got tragically misused and misdirected in 1963.  That’s no reason for us to be misdirected more than 60 years later.

(Sorry about the duplicate graphic at top.  I can't seem to delete one)

[Greg Doudna]

Jim Hargrove, this is a serious question not intended to be flippant: in this theory of two Oswalds in the same Marines unit sharing a single Marines file, did these two Oswalds share the same Social Security number and the same bunk? 

If they had different ID numbers and were in different bunks, wouldn’t some of the other Marines have noticed, and wouldn’t there have been separate military files as two persons? 

I don’t know the explanation of the Taiwan vs non-Taiwan paperwork discrepancy, but surely there is some simpler resolution than two Oswalds with identical first and middle names in the same Marines unit?

If there was a secret govt plan to have two lookalikes with identical names (but who were genetically unrelated) have separate lifetime histories covertly without it being common open knowledge that there were these Siamese Twin Oswalds (so to speak), would it make sense to put them in the same military unit at the same time, if the idea was to keep it secret? 

[Joe Bauer]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:13 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Quoting John F. Kennedy:

"We welcome the views of others. We seek a free flow of information across national boundaries and oceans, across iron curtains and stone walls. We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."

--John F. Kennedy: "Remarks on the 20th Anniversary of the Voice of America.," February 26, 1962. (Posted by Paul Rigby on 1/18/24.)

What an inspiring leader JFK was.

Not just for his fellow Americans...but for all the peoples of the world.

 

[Joe Bauer]

32 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

If there was a secret govt plan to have two lookalikes with identical names (but who were genetically unrelated) have separate lifetime histories covertly without it being common open knowledge that there were these Siamese Twin Oswalds (so to speak), would it make sense to put them in the same military unit at the same time, if the idea was to keep it secret? 

Of course it makes no sense.

[Jim Hargrove]

The two Oswalds were never in the same Marine Corps units at the same time.  That would be stupid.  The whole idea was secrecy, not publicity.  Harvey and Lee were carefully kept apart during the entire existence of the Oswald Project--little more than a decade. 

This was an intelligence project from start to finish.  In the military, the paperwork was undoubtedly controlled accordingly.

Immediately after the assassination, loose ends were cleaned up in large part by FBI personnel directed by Hoover. These agents visited and confiscated documents from schools and workplaces hours after the assassination. These same agents were told to do no follow-up work on their own and not to talk to one other about their investigations. The mistakes and oversights of this Hoover-directed campaign allowed the evidence we have of two Oswalds to survive, and there is a surprising amount of it.  But you have to make a bit of an effort, at least, to understand it.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Jim Hargrove, this is a serious question not intended to be flippant: in this theory of two Oswalds in the same Marines unit sharing a single Marines file, did these two Oswalds share the same Social Security number and the same bunk? 

If they had different ID numbers and were in different bunks, wouldn’t some of the other Marines have noticed, and wouldn’t there have been separate military files as two persons? 

I don’t know the explanation of the Taiwan vs non-Taiwan paperwork discrepancy, but surely there is some simpler resolution than two Oswalds with identical first and middle names in the same Marines unit?

If there was a secret govt plan to have two lookalikes with identical names (but who were genetically unrelated) have separate lifetime histories covertly without it being common open knowledge that there were these Siamese Twin Oswalds (so to speak), would it make sense to put them in the same military unit at the same time, if the idea was to keep it secret? 

That was my question too.

1. Back then, did not military personnel have unique military ID numbers? Or Marines did?

2. Did the two Oswalds share an ID, or have different IDs, while in the service? 

3. To date, no one in the Marines, especially an ordinary Marine, has come forward to say they saw both Oswalds, or thought there were Oswald twins, or thought there were two Oswalds who were nearly look-a-like brothers etc?  It is a curiosity that no one in the Marines seemed to have noticed twin Oswalds, contemporaneously, or even expressed such a view later. 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:30 PM, Ron Bulman said:

 

If there is Shame for a conspiracy theory, it should start with the Warren Omission.  It was the original sin. Promulgated by Dulles, McCloy and Ford, with assistance from Belin and Specter among others.  The greatest farce ever perpetrated on the United States populace at the time.  An unsupported, destroyed theory itself.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That was my question too.

1. Back then, did not military personnel have unique military ID numbers? Or Marines did?

2. Did the two Oswalds share an ID, or have different IDs, while in the service? 

 

If there were two Oswalds (and I believe there were) then the records that Jim presented show that both the one that went to Taiwan and the one who stayed in Japan, being treated for VD, both had the same military service number, 1653230.

 

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

3. To date, no one in the Marines, especially an ordinary Marine, has come forward to say they saw both Oswalds, or thought there were Oswald twins, or thought there were two Oswalds who were nearly look-a-like brothers etc?  It is a curiosity that no one in the Marines seemed to have noticed twin Oswalds, contemporaneously, or even expressed such a view later.

 

The two Oswalds would have been placed in different units. The military had to have been cooperating with an intelligence service in order to keep two separate sets of records.

I've never thought the two Oswalds looked liked twins... only that the could have passed for one another in situations where other people wouldn't have become acquainted with their specific looks.