The Missing Walker Shell

[Gerry Down]

A little unnoticed detail about the Walker shooting is that no shell was retrieved from the fence at the rear of Walkers house from where the assassin took his shot.

Assuming Oswald was the assassin, does this mean Oswald picked up the shell in the darkness or had some type of apparatus attached to the rifle, such as a small bag, to catch the shell?

[Greg Doudna]

Walker aide Robert Surrey was seen walking out from the alley and fence area behind the house, where the shooter fired, within seconds of the shot, seen by witness Kirk Coleman (what the FBI called his Man No. 2).

We can know that was Robert Surrey because that man was seen by Kirk Coleman walking to and getting into a car which can be identified with certainty as Robert Surrey’s car. 

That locates Robert Surrey, at the time of the shot, at the approximate exact location of from where the shot was fired, from the timing of how soon after the shot 14-year old Kirk Coleman ran to his back fence, climbed up on a bicycle and looked over. 

Surrey then drove home to where his family was, about two miles away, and Walker, after waiting long enough to allow Surrey time to get home, phoned to Surrey at home and told him of the shot (which Surrey already knew about), and to come over, which Surrey did and assisted Walker in meeting arriving police.

The identification of Robert Surrey coming out of that alley after the shot in turn raises two questions: was he alone in the vicinity of where the shot was fired when the shot was fired (did he fire the shot?), and was the shot intended to kill Walker or was it staged.

I believe Surrey would not have and did not seek to kill Walker, therefore it was a staged shot (not an attempted murder by anyone that night). I do not believe Walker aide and publicist Surrey was party to an actual attempt to assassinate his wife’s employer and his friend, Walker.

One scenario is Surrey was with the shooter and that shooter was Oswald when that shot was fired.

There is a strong argument someone else was with Surrey at the location from which the shot was fired, at the time the shot was fired.

That argument is: the behavior of what the FBI called Kirk Coleman’s Man No. 1 (seen by Coleman in the seconds after the shot). Coleman saw him (no. 1) standing outside of his running car, in a position from which he would have had line of sight from where he was, in the church parking lot, into the rear alley where the shooter was. 

The behavior of Man No. 1 and the running engine with headlights on of the car of No. 1 looks like a running getaway car and a driver attempting to help direct the shooter to that car ready to go, though Coleman saw man no. 1  return to his engine-running car and drive away alone, meaning the shooter fled in a different direction on foot (for whatever reason). 

To go to the question you ask, what became of the missing shell hull which should have been found on the ground in that alley nearby, here is my answer:

It was picked up by Robert Surrey after the shooter had fired. 

Both of Robert Surrey’s sons directly said in later years that they remembered the distinctive practice of their father to always pick up shell hulls when recreationally shooting in the woods. Surrey taught his kids to do that and they said they had fun doing that for the adults who were shooting. 

Therefore that is exactly the thing Surrey did. And he was there, and the shell hull was never found in the ground, q.e.d.

When Kirk Coleman saw his man no. 2, Surrey, return to his car, Coleman saw him leaning into the back seat as if putting something on the floorboards in the rear, though Coleman could not see what it might have been. Yet Coleman also said he did not see man no. 2, Surrey, carrying anything in his hands as he walked from the alley area to his car, before he got to his car.

What Surrey was doing may or may not have been concealing that shell hull under a floor mat or elsewhere in that rear floor area of his car—or he kept it in his pocket. 

Either way, Surrey had it and that’s why it was never found by police looking for it in that alley, and it was never seen again.

Most of this—except for the shell hull solution—was the content of my Lancer presentation two months ago in November. 

So there you have it—an answer to the question! 🙂 

Update: as noted by Gerry Down below, a single shot from a bolt-action rifle, such as Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano, would not eject a shell hull.

Edited January 19 by Greg Doudna

[Benjamin Cole]

Interesting. 

But a steel-jacketed slug was found in the Walker home, which might suggest LHO was not the shooter. (LHO had copper-jacketed slugs). 

Additionally, some weapons, such as revolvers do not eject shells after firing. 

It was assumed that a rifle was used in the Walker shooting, due to the power of the slug, which passed through a wood and plaster wall in the Walker home. 

But .357 magnum revolver slugs are very powerful also. 

It is possible the shooter was armed with a .357 revolver, loaded with steel-jacketed slugs, fired and then left the scene in one of the two departing vehicles.

DPD Chief Curry opined to news reporters that "steel jacketed" bullets had been used in the JFKA, and said he had asked the FBI if that was so, on 11/29. 

Obviously, Curry believed the DPD had found a steel-jacketed slug in the Walker home. 

 

 

[Gerry Down]

Just realized that of course there would be no shell at the Walker scene. As Oswald only fired one shot he did not work the bolt for a second shot. And by not working the bolt for a second shot, he ejected no shell at the scene. 

The shell remained in Oswalds rifle as he ran away from the scene. 

I wonder what became of that shell. One would think Oswald would have liked to keep it as a keepsake seeing how he had kept a diary as a keepsake detailing how he planned to kill Walker, until Marina made him get rid of that keepsake diary. But obviously no such shell turned up among Oswalds possessions after the assassination. So maybe Oswald ditched it in the bushes along the railroad track where he hid the rifle. 

It would be worth going along that track with a metal detector to see if that shell could still be found today. 

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DPD Chief Curry opined to news reporters that "steel jacketed" bullets had been used in the JFKA, and said he had asked the FBI if that was so, on 11/29. 

Obviously, Curry believed the DPD had found a steel-jacketed slug in the Walker home.

Egad. Whatever questions Curry may have had about the JFKA bullets were answered in a lab report dated 11/23 sent to him by the FBI. The idea that he was still waiting one week later for "confirmation that they were steel-jacketed" doesn't make a lot of sense. The journalist obviously knew nothing about the lab report but did have a doctor with expertise in bullet wounds who could explain the difference in behavior of dumdum bullets and regular "steel-jacketed" bullets. The misnomer "steel-jacketed" in place of simply "jacketed" may have come from either Curry, the good doctor, or the journalist himself.

[Larry Hancock]

Excellent point Gerry - I said kicking myself - why the heck have none of us thought of that before.  Bolt action rifle, fire and "bolt" especially if somebody is heard running in your direction but safest thing to do anyway.  So no shell hull to be recovered...

  -- Well done...

 

 

Edited January 18 by Larry Hancock

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Excellent point Gerry - I said kicking himself - why the heck have none of us thought of that before.  Bolt action rifle, fire and "bolt" especially if somebody is heard running in your direction but safest thing to do anyway.  So no shell hull to be recovered...

  -- Well done...

 

 

LH-

Might not have been a bolt-action rifle? A revolver?

.357 Magnums carry quite a wallop. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Egad. Whatever questions Curry may have had about the JFKA bullets were answered in a lab report dated 11/23 sent to him by the FBI. The idea that he was still waiting one week later for "confirmation that they were steel-jacketed" doesn't make a lot of sense. The journalist obviously knew nothing about the lab report but did have a doctor with expertise in bullet wounds who could explain the difference in behavior of dumdum bullets and regular "steel-jacketed" bullets. The misnomer "steel-jacketed" in place of simply "jacketed" may have come from either Curry, the good doctor, or the journalist himself.

That's true. Curry did receive the FBI lab report on 11/23. 

But it appears Curry continued to inquire of the FBI regarding steel-jacketed bullets thereafter, likely looking for a connection between the Walker shooting and the JFKA.

Perhaps Curry thought additional evidence was on the cusp, or that the FBI was (for legitimate reasons) holding back releasing some details to the public, as the investigation proceeded. 

Sometimes investigators play the cards close to the vest, for obvious reasons. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Wait...I think we may be barking up the wrong tree here. 

The Walker shooter, even if armed with a bolt-action single-shot rifle, would only work the bolt, and eject the shell, if he intended a second shot. 

So, the shooter aimed at Walker (or aimed to miss) fired a single shot, and ran away, never ejecting the shell (at the scene of the crime anyway). 

 

[David Von Pein]

13 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The Walker shooter, even if armed with a bolt-action single-shot rifle, would only work the bolt, and eject the shell, if he intended a second shot.  So, the shooter aimed at Walker (or aimed to miss) fired a single shot, and ran away, never ejecting the shell (at the scene of the crime anyway).

That's just what Gerry Down said 3 hours ago, Ben.

(Look up....before posting.) 😁

 

Edited January 18 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

That's just what Gerry Down said 3 hours ago, Ben.

(Look up....before posting.) 😁

 

DVP Oh. Thanks. Never mind. 

[Michael Griffith]

12 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Just realized that of course there would be no shell at the Walker scene. As Oswald only fired one shot he did not work the bolt for a second shot. And by not working the bolt for a second shot, he ejected no shell at the scene. 

The shell remained in Oswalds rifle as he ran away from the scene. 

I wonder what became of that shell. One would think Oswald would have liked to keep it as a keepsake seeing how he had kept a diary as a keepsake detailing how he planned to kill Walker, until Marina made him get rid of that keepsake diary. But obviously no such shell turned up among Oswalds possessions after the assassination. So maybe Oswald ditched it in the bushes along the railroad track where he hid the rifle. 

It would be worth going along that track with a metal detector to see if that shell could still be found today. 

Sigh. . . .

A few facts, facts that have been known for years:

-- Walker himself insisted that the bullet in evidence looked nothing like the bullet that he examined at the time of the shooting.

-- FBI spectrographic testing found that the lead alloy in the bullet was different from the lead in the bullet fragments found in JFK's limo.

-- Guinn's bogus NAA finding regarding the Walker bullet has been debunked.

-- The Walker bullet was fired from a high-powered rifle, a rifle powerful enough to enable the bullet to go through brickwork. The Mannlicher–Carcano rifle was not that powerful--it was a rather low-velocity weapon--and there is no evidence that Oswald had access to a high-powered rifle.

-- Two men were seen leaving the shooting scene, and neither of them resembled Oswald.

-- The alleged Oswald note smells to high heaven. The finding of the note alone raises strong doubt about its authenticity. The police and the FBI thoroughly searched Ruth Paine’s home twice, once on the afternoon of the shooting and again the next day, and failed to find the note. Also, the note was undated, did not mention Walker, and said nothing about a reason for a potential arrest. Moreover, two of the three handwriting experts consulted by the HSCA declined to identify the note's handwriting as Oswald's handwriting. And, none of the seven fingerprints on the note belonged to either Lee or Marina.

 

[Gerry Down]

11 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Excellent point Gerry - I said kicking himself - why the heck have none of us thought of that before.  Bolt action rifle, fire and "bolt" especially if somebody is heard running in your direction but safest thing to do anyway.  So no shell hull to be recovered...

  -- Well done...

 

 

Thanks Larry.

[Michael Griffith]

Regarding the flimsy, dubious case against Oswald in the Walker shooting, I quote from Dr. Gerald McKnight’s section on the shooting from his book Breach of Trust:

          Belmont was accurate when he told Katzenbach that Oswald had never been a suspect in the Dallas police’s investigation into the Walker case. All of the Dallas police’s witness testimony pointed to two or three conspirators with cars using a high-powered rifle and steel-jacketed ammunition. Oswald did not drive and had no known access to a car, his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not high-powered, and the ammunition he allegedly used to kill Kennedy was copper-jacketed.

          The bullet the Dallas police recovered from Walker’s home had passed through the center wood strip of the outer screen of the general’s study, through a copper weather strip, and penetrated an inside masonry wall reinforced with solid tin and metal lathing, finally falling onto a pile of papers in the adjoining room. Because the bullet was completely mutilated and deformed by such obstruction, the Dallas police claimed they had run no ballistics test on the recovered slug. . . .

          Whatever weapon was involved in the Walker shooting incident, it was highly unlikely that a 6.5-mm bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle could have penetrated a cinder block, as did the projectile recovered from Walker’s house. During his first appearance before the Warren Commission, Robert A. Frazier, the FBI’s chief firearms expert, repeatedly stressed that Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano had a “very low velocity and pressure, and just an average-size bullet weight”. . . .

          What Eisenberg carefully avoided and Frazier did not volunteer were the results of the FBI’s spectrographic analysis of Q-188. A week before Frazier appeared before the Commission, Eisenberg met with him and Agent Henry H. Heilberger to review the FBI lab results for the Walker bullet. Eisenberg could not have been encouraged by what he learned from Heilberger, the one who ran the tests. Heilberger concluded in his report (PC-78378) that the lead alloy in the Walker bullet was different from the lead alloy of the two large bullet fragments recovered from under the left jump seat of the presidential limousine. (pp. 48-50)

          In 1979 Walker was watching a televised session of the House Select Committee on Assassinations when Robert Blakey, the committee’s chief counsel, held up CE 573 as a visual aide to augment his narrative on the firearms evidence in the Kennedy assassination.

          Walker, a thirty-year career army officer with extensive combat experience in World War II, and with more than a passing familiarity with military weaponry, was stunned. According to Walker, what Blakey represented as the bullet fired into his home bore no resemblance to the piece of lead the police had recovered, which he had held in his own hand and closely examined. (p. 52)

McKnight also deals at length with the highly suspicious “discovery” of the alleged Oswald note, the absence of Lee and Marina’s prints on the note, the eyewitness testimony that two men were involved and that neither looked like Oswald, and the pressure that was applied to Marina.

 

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Regarding the flimsy, dubious case against Oswald in the Walker shooting, I quote from Dr. Gerald McKnight’s section on the shooting from his book Breach of Trust:

          Belmont was accurate when he told Katzenbach that Oswald had never been a suspect in the Dallas police’s investigation into the Walker case. All of the Dallas police’s witness testimony pointed to two or three conspirators with cars using a high-powered rifle and steel-jacketed ammunition. Oswald did not drive and had no known access to a car, his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not high-powered, and the ammunition he allegedly used to kill Kennedy was copper-jacketed.

          The bullet the Dallas police recovered from Walker’s home had passed through the center wood strip of the outer screen of the general’s study, through a copper weather strip, and penetrated an inside masonry wall reinforced with solid tin and metal lathing, finally falling onto a pile of papers in the adjoining room. Because the bullet was completely mutilated and deformed by such obstruction, the Dallas police claimed they had run no ballistics test on the recovered slug. . . .

          Whatever weapon was involved in the Walker shooting incident, it was highly unlikely that a 6.5-mm bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle could have penetrated a cinder block, as did the projectile recovered from Walker’s house. During his first appearance before the Warren Commission, Robert A. Frazier, the FBI’s chief firearms expert, repeatedly stressed that Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano had a “very low velocity and pressure, and just an average-size bullet weight”. . . .

          What Eisenberg carefully avoided and Frazier did not volunteer were the results of the FBI’s spectrographic analysis of Q-188. A week before Frazier appeared before the Commission, Eisenberg met with him and Agent Henry H. Heilberger to review the FBI lab results for the Walker bullet. Eisenberg could not have been encouraged by what he learned from Heilberger, the one who ran the tests. Heilberger concluded in his report (PC-78378) that the lead alloy in the Walker bullet was different from the lead alloy of the two large bullet fragments recovered from under the left jump seat of the presidential limousine. (pp. 48-50)

          In 1979 Walker was watching a televised session of the House Select Committee on Assassinations when Robert Blakey, the committee’s chief counsel, held up CE 573 as a visual aide to augment his narrative on the firearms evidence in the Kennedy assassination.

          Walker, a thirty-year career army officer with extensive combat experience in World War II, and with more than a passing familiarity with military weaponry, was stunned. According to Walker, what Blakey represented as the bullet fired into his home bore no resemblance to the piece of lead the police had recovered, which he had held in his own hand and closely examined. (p. 52)

McKnight also deals at length with the highly suspicious “discovery” of the alleged Oswald note, the absence of Lee and Marina’s prints on the note, the eyewitness testimony that two men were involved and that neither looked like Oswald, and the pressure that was applied to Marina.

 

I didn't realise the internal partition wall in Walkers house was masonry. I assumed it was a timber stud wall.