What Ruth Paine Evidence/Testimony was designed to Support or Cover-Up a commie plot?

[Sandy Larsen]

We need to recognize that Ruth Paine was the one witness who was working for both sides of the coverup!

For the CIA coup plotters, Ruth was introducing fabricated evidence of Oswald being involved in a commie plot, the purpose of which was to create a pretext for invasion of Cuba, possibly even a first nuclear strike on the Soviet Union.

In contrast, for the FBI/WC coverup artists, Ruth may have been introducing fabricated evidence of Oswald being a lone gunman.

 

I want to make lists of fabricated evidence for each of these two cases and record them in the following post. I invite forum members to help me build the list.

Thanks!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Fabricated Evidence/Testimony Introduced by Ruth Paine

 

Pro-Conspiracy Evidence (for the coup plotters):

• Handed over a copy of the "Kostin/Kostikov" letter.

 

Anti-Conspiracy Evidence (for the coverup artists):

• Testified to the existence of the Carcano rifle.

 

[Greg Doudna]

When you say Ruth Paine introduced fabricated evidence, could you clarify whether you mean wittingly (she knew it was fabricated when she reported it) or unwittingly when she reported it?

And before, most recently from my memory, you have said you were not certain the Soviet Embassy letter was forged, as opposed to having been written by Oswald (in agreement with 100% of expert testimony, one, who have rendered an opinion on the handwriting as Oswald’s in all of history these past sixty years). 

If you have changed your view from uncertainty to certainty on that point, could you explain what changed your mind?

Finally, when you refer to “fabrication”, do you exclude that Oswald could have a role, such as in the writing, of that alleged fabrication (writing of the contents of that letter)?

But the main question is not whether Ruth Paine, against the wishes of Michael, reported the letter to the FBI, but whether you are ALSO explicitly claiming she knew it was allegedly forged and/or fabricated when she did so, and if so your basis for confidence in that belief.

My question is motivated from objection to seeing Ruth Paine, whom I knew, being unjustly smeared. But never mind the personal history, the questions are valid. 

[Denny Zartman]

As I see it, there was a covert explanation and an overt explanation for the assassination, both false. The overt one was Lone Nut. During the "investigation" anyone that doubted the overt LN story was then fed the covert false explanation: a Communist conspiracy leading to Russia and Cuba. They were then pressured to go along with the Lone Nut narrative in order to prevent the inevitable nuclear devastation that would accompany the revelation that the assassination was perpetrated by Russians and Cubans. It was effectively used as a lever to move the Lone Nut narrative into place. From what I've read LBJ started using this lever to control the flow of the story from the moment he became President. He used the fear of nuclear war to pressure Earl Warren and others into going along with the cover-up (selling the overt explanation), and he was still pushing the possiblity of an international conspiracy in his last recorded statements on the subject.

It seems Ruth obtained Marina's Russian translator for Marina's police interview, and also sat in during that interrogation, both actions important to shape whatever narrative was going to be sold.

Ruth, as we all know, cold-called Roy Truly and got LHO his job at the TSBD, which as I see it, served two functions - keeping Oswald in Dallas and placing the patsy on the motorcade route.

I believe Ruth was also used to keep Oswald anchored in Dallas by housing his family in her home.

The Paine's were also able to testify that LHO possessed a rifle. Tellingly, from what I understand, they never actually saw the rifle uncovered, allowing them deniability about the make & model. (I'm one of those people that strongly suspects a Mauser was originally intended to be used in the scenario and had to be changed later.)

I'm guessing the discovery of the Minox camera was unintentional.

[Sandy Larsen]

I want to rephrase my questions, this time being more precise and blunt so there can be no misunderstanding:

1. After the assassination, what falsehoods did the CIA coup plotters ask Ruth Paine to do or say to make it look like Oswald was in cahoots with the Cubans and Russians?
    
2. After the assassination, what falsehoods did the FBI/WC ask Ruth Paine to do or say to make it look like Oswald alone killed Kennedy.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

My question is motivated from objection to seeing Ruth Paine, whom I knew, being unjustly smeared.

 

I haven't said anything that smears Ruth Paine. I believe she worked for the CIA because she felt it was her patriotic duty to protect the world from communism. And I believe that she was willing to lie for the Warren Commission in order to protect the world from a potential WW3.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

As I see it, there was a covert explanation and an overt explanation for the assassination, both false. The overt one was Lone Nut. During the "investigation" anyone that doubted the overt LN story was then fed the covert false explanation: a Communist conspiracy leading to Russia and Cuba. They were then pressured to go along with the Lone Nut narrative in order to prevent the inevitable nuclear devastation that would accompany the revelation that the assassination was perpetrated by Russians and Cubans. It was effectively used as a lever to move the Lone Nut narrative into place. From what I've read LBJ started using this lever to control the flow of the story from the moment he became President. He used the fear of nuclear war to pressure Earl Warren and others into going along with the cover-up (selling the overt explanation), and he was still pushing the possiblity of an international conspiracy in his last recorded statements on the subject.

It seems Ruth obtained Marina's Russian translator for Marina's police interview, and also sat in during that interrogation, both actions important to shape whatever narrative was going to be sold.

Ruth, as we all know, cold-called Roy Truly and got LHO his job at the TSBD, which as I see it, served two functions - keeping Oswald in Dallas and placing the patsy on the motorcade route.

I believe Ruth was also used to keep Oswald anchored in Dallas by housing his family in her home.

 

Denny,

You believe much the same as a lot of JFKA researchers, that the communist angle in the plot was a poison pill designed to get the government to cover up the assassination rather than investigate it.

I don't believe in that theory because evidence for the commie angle continued coming forth well after the Johnson Administration decided on the coverup. And Angleton and David Phillips continued pushing the commie angle, I think for years.

 

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

The Paine's were also able to testify that LHO possessed a rifle. Tellingly, from what I understand, they never actually saw the rifle uncovered, allowing them deniability about the make & model. (I'm one of those people that strongly suspects a Mauser was originally intended to be used in the scenario and had to be changed later.)

 

That's a good point about the rifle. I will put it on my list.

 

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm guessing the discovery of the Minox camera was unintentional.

 

[Bill Fite]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I believe she worked for the CIA because she felt it was her patriotic duty to protect the world from communism. And I believe that she would be willing to lie for the Warren Commission in order to protect the world from a potential WW3.

 

 

Along those lines, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that

* the Paines were involved w LHO in an effort to to protect the world from Communism - an effort directed by someone above the 3

* this might explain - Michael taking LHO to various 'subversive' mtgs and a college campus to infiltrate / monitor the radicals and commies & Ruth taking in Marina and the kids 

* then once they see what happened to LHO they are then manipulated / managed to produce evidence / testimony to save the world (let alone their own lives) from nuclear destruction

or is that out of the realm of possibility?

It's a really weird thought, I know.

[Denny Zartman]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You believe much the same as a lot of JFKA researchers, that the communist angle in the plot was a poison pill designed to get the government to cover up the assassination rather than investigate it.

I don't believe in that theory because evidence for the commie angle continued coming forth well after the Johnson Administration decided on the coverup. And Angleton and David Phillips continued pushing the commie angle, I think for years.

It's certainly reasonable to believe that before and after the assassination the conspirators were setting up Russia & Cuba to take the blame, and that the conspirators wanted war with Russia & Cuba as a result. Especially if the whole LHO Mexico City visit was fabricated after the fact as some people believe.

The question then becomes: why did the conspirators fail in getting Russia & Cuba to take the blame if that was their plan? Who overrode the conspirators and decided that it was to instead be blamed entirely on one psycho acting alone? Because it sure seems to me that efforts to buttress the lone nut narrative started almost immediately. (In my opinion, too soon to be merely damage control or emergency implementation of plan B.)

If the conspirators wanted the assassination to look like a conspiracy with multiple shooters (as there were), why then would they bother to remove JFK's body from Dallas at all, much less forcibly? They could have let the autopsy proceed in Dallas and let it reveal that there were multiple shooters firing from different angles. It seems a lot easier than taking the body and performing surreptitious pre-autopsy surgery to remove evidence indicating conspiracy.

It doesn't make much sense to me that there would be such efforts expended to make the JFKA seem like a Russian/Cuban conspiracy, yet individuals were there on the scene ready to take immediate actions to cover up any evidence of conspiracy.

[Ron Bulman]

I guess this would be an example of Michael Paine pushing Oswald as a Communist the afternoon/evening of November 22, 1963.  I've made a few posts related to that in a thread I started several years ago about small file boxes in the Paine's garage.  This is from memory but it's documented.  

Michael arrived at their house shortly after police on 11/22.  He had a conversation with Dallas Police Officer or a Dallas Sherriff's Officer over an ironing board in the kitchen near the door to the garage.  In it he mentioned Oswald talked about Castro and Communism being better than capitalism.  That he didn't like such talk.

I think this may have been related to the discovery of the file boxes, in that they contained information on Cuban-US citizens.  He was asked what the files were all about.  He said they were Oswald's.  The files were loaded into the trunk of a Sheriff's office car and taken to Dallas.  Decker wanted nothing to do with them, take them to the DPD.  Where they disappeared.  Then one reappeared, empty.  Then Ruth remembered two, in her closet.  One of correspondence from friends, one of record albums.  These would have been 8 1/2' X 11" files, they wouldn't hold albums.

The existence of the files is documented by the reports of a at least one DPD officer and one SO, I think mentioned in one others.  I believe Michael was questioned about or mentioned it himself in his WC testimony.  Ruth's two in the closet may be from her WC testimony as well, but then again it may be from Max Good's interview.

Anyway, it seems Michael was implicating Oswald as a Communism/Castro on 11/22/63. 

[Denny Zartman]

I think part of what keeps me interested in this case is that there's all this sober, detailed discussion and careful analysis of every detail by so many intelligent individuals over the decades, but major aspects of this case remain as fanciful as something from a fairy tale. (or is that Ferrie tale?)

Other than a straight-up military invasion, I can hardly think of a bigger provocation than one country assassinating the leader of another country. Imagine that the JFKA really was engineered by the USSR and/or Cuba. What incredible good fortune they had. They managed to get the American president killed, and not only did the new American president not retaliate, he began twisting arms to help them get away with it.

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It doesn't make much sense to me that there would be such efforts expended to make the JFKA seem like a Russian/Cuban conspiracy, yet individuals were there on the scene ready to take immediate actions to cover up any evidence of conspiracy.

 

I agree with you 100% Denny. And yet the evidence for the Cuban/Russian angle in the plot is very real. This is a quandary that I've been trying to resolve. It's good to see that I'm not the only one who recognizes this problem.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I guess this would be an example of Michael Paine pushing Oswald as a Communist the afternoon/evening of November 22, 1963.  I've made a few posts related to that in a thread I started several years ago about small file boxes in the Paine's garage.  This is from memory but it's documented.  

Michael arrived at their house shortly after police on 11/22.  He had a conversation with Dallas Police Officer or a Dallas Sherriff's Officer over an ironing board in the kitchen near the door to the garage.  In it he mentioned Oswald talked about Castro and Communism being better than capitalism.  That he didn't like such talk.

I think this may have been related to the discovery of the file boxes, in that they contained information on Cuban-US citizens.  He was asked what the files were all about.  He said they were Oswald's.  The files were loaded into the trunk of a Sheriff's office car and taken to Dallas.  Decker wanted nothing to do with them, take them to the DPD.  Where they disappeared.  Then one reappeared, empty.  Then Ruth remembered two, in her closet.  One of correspondence from friends, one of record albums.  These would have been 8 1/2' X 11" files, they wouldn't hold albums.

The existence of the files is documented by the reports of a at least one DPD officer and one SO, I think mentioned in one others.  I believe Michael was questioned about or mentioned it himself in his WC testimony.  Ruth's two in the closet may be from her WC testimony as well, but then again it may be from Max Good's interview.

Anyway, it seems Michael was implicating Oswald as a Communism/Castro on 11/22/63. 

 

Thanks for that info, Ron.

I'm not going to  put it on my list, though, because it looks like it just could have happened that way accidentally. The files were discovered and so Michael wormed his (or Ruth's) way out of it. After which he had no choice than to follow up when asked about it in his WC testimony.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

They managed to get the American president killed, and not only did the new American president not retaliate, he began twisting arms to help them get away with it.

 

Ha! Exactly!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It doesn't make much sense to me that there would be such efforts expended to make the JFKA seem like a Russian/Cuban conspiracy, yet individuals were there on the scene ready to take immediate actions to cover up any evidence of conspiracy.

 

Hey Denny,

Here's a thought.

Suppose that the assassination plot was designed by the CIA. (This is what I believe.) And the goal of the plot was to create a pretext for invasion of Cuba or war with Russia... two things that the Generals wanted at the time.

Suppose also that thee plan did NOT call for making it look like Oswald was the lone killer. So, for instance, the Feds wouldn't have taken JFK's body by force. Rather, the autopsy would have been performed by Dallas doctors.

There are two possible ways the Johnson Administration would have proceeded after the assassination. They could have taken advantage of the pretext and attacked Cuba or Russia. Or they could have rejected the pretext, for fear of a potential WW3. Now, suppose they chose to do the latter.

What would have happened after that?

(First, I suspect that they would have figured out that the whole thing was a CIA operation.)

Would the government have told the American people about the Cuban/Russian plot? Of course not. Because if they did, there would be an public outcry against those countries and a demand for retribution. So the government would have covered up the Cuban/Russian plot.

Naturally the American people would have expected there to be a thorough investigation. Something that the CIA plotters would NOT have wanted to happen. Right? Because they were the perpetrators!

 

The CIA plotters were not stupid. They considered that the above scenario might happen. So what they did was build into their plot a way for the government to blame Oswald in the event that they didn't act on the pretext for invasion/war. In order to do that, they needed to clean up right away, after the assassination, any OVERT evidence of a conspiracy. For example, entrance bullet holes on the front side of Kennedy's head. They had to control the autopsy.

That way, to the American people it would look like a lone gunman killed Kennedy. But to the government -- whose FBI was uncovering evidence of a Cuban/Russian plot -- it would look like just that!

I just recalled your Overt/Covert theory (a few posts up), and re-read it. What I'm saying is almost the same as that. The difference being that you believe the plotters ultimately did NOT want to have an invasion/war, and I believe they ultimately DID want that, but weren't obliged by the Johnson Administration.