Pre-arranged Planted Witnesses @ Tippit killing.

[Pete Mellor]

Australian researcher Gavan McMahon, a retired law enforcement officer, recently had a 60 page article printed in November 2023 in the 'Garrison' journal Issue 15.

McMahon has held interviews with surviving family members of Helen Markham and William Scoggins who have given statements that both Markham & Scoggins were planted witnesses for the arrest of Oswald at 10th & Patton.  William Scoggins, was previously paid by Ruby to recommend the Carousel club to his taxi pick-ups.  According to his grandson Ken, who was told by his father that Scoggins was contacted by a Ruby associate and instructed to be at 10th & Patton that day, no reason given.  Scoggins always took his lunch break at his home, but on the 22nd took his lunch to work with him so he could eat his sandwiches during his lunch break at the Oak Cliff location. He told family that he saw two men running from the Tippit killing in two different directions. At the time, Scoggins was warned that if he told what happened he would disappear.  Later, for his silence, he was rewarded with a high paid job with General Dynamics.

Today, (2nd March) Dealey Plaza U.K. held a four hour recorded Zoom conference with McMahon, soon to be loaded onto D.P.U.K.'s You Tube channel.  Other McMahon articles on his research are soon to be loaded on D.P.U.K.'s web pages.

[David Andrews]

Well, how could Ruby predict Oz would take the dogleg off North Beckley over to 10th and Patton?

Unless Oz was told to expect a car pickup near that location, with Texas Theater the default.  But - tradecraft be damned - if someone told me that the day before, I'd go another way to the default, especially if I'd been told DPD would be picking me up.  Better to be just another working stiff at lunch, walking in the crowds of tragedy-distracted people on Jefferson Blvd.

[Donald Willis]

4 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Australian researcher Gavan McMahon, a retired law enforcement officer, recently had a 60 page article printed in November 2023 in the 'Garrison' journal Issue 15.

McMahon has held interviews with surviving family members of Helen Markham and William Scoggins who have given statements that both Markham & Scoggins were planted witnesses for the arrest of Oswald at 10th & Patton.  William Scoggins, was previously paid by Ruby to recommend the Carousel club to his taxi pick-ups.  According to his grandson Ken, who was told by his father that Scoggins was contacted by a Ruby associate and instructed to be at 10th & Patton that day, no reason given.  Scoggins always took his lunch break at his home, but on the 22nd took his lunch to work with him so he could eat his sandwiches during his lunch break at the Oak Cliff location. He told family that he saw two men running from the Tippit killing in two different directions. At the time, Scoggins was warned that if he told what happened he would disappear.  Later, for his silence, he was rewarded with a high paid job with General Dynamics.

Today, (2nd March) Dealey Plaza U.K. held a four hour recorded Zoom conference with McMahon, soon to be loaded onto D.P.U.K.'s You Tube channel.  Other McMahon articles on his research are soon to be loaded on D.P.U.K.'s web pages.

I doubt both stories.  Markham I believe did not even get to 10th & P in time to see the shooter, only a vigilante (probably Scoggins), with Tippit's revolver.  If Scoggins were a plant he would have ID'd Oswald at the first Friday lineup.  As his testimony indicates, he knew Tippit, and went on 2 or 3 searches for the killer, the first (as I indicated) on foot, the 2nd with Callaway, the third with a cops.

[Pete Mellor]

D.P.U.K.'s recorded Zoom with Gavan McMahon (Part 1)

 

[Pete Mellor]

& D.P.U.K.'s recorded Zoom with Gavan McMahon (Part 2)

 

[Greg Doudna]

Very interesting article and presentations of Gavan McMahon. 

On Scoggins being asked in advance by a Ruby associate to be parked there with his cab at the time Tippit was shot, as told by his grandson, the story is believable but the interpretation of that as a planted witness seems to be the wrong interpretation of the fact cited. 

As a later questioner in the video commented, Scoggins (parked around the corner) was not in a good position to witness directly. That is not what that would have been about. Instead, it would be to have the option of a cab at hand for a killer to have for a getaway. 

Scoggins surely had no knowledge there was going to be a killing. Scoggins told of after hearing the shots, of getting out of and away from his cab immediately as part of cabbie street sense, because of a high risk of being carjacked or forced to drive at gunpoint if the cabbie remains in the car. By getting out of his cab immediately, Scoggins removed the ability of the Tippit killer to utilize him as a driver in that way, if the killer had so wished.

If the grandson’s story is true of what his grandfather told his father, it supports what other grounds indicate, that the Tippit killing was a premeditated execution. 

The Helen Markham family story of Helen’s story, as told in the interviews of McMahon, is interesting but must be suspected to have some mistaken interpretations of family members mixed in not from Helen, or not from Helen's personal knowledge. I personally think the James Markham Oswald gang member and Tolliver story is completely bogus (James came up with that in prison and it sounds like total fabrication) and I doubt it stems from any firsthand knowledge of Helen even if the daughter-in-law today thinks so. 

Instead, what McMahon (in the Garrison article) tells from the family, of Helen’s “second gunman” with Oswald, the “Italian” or mob-related man that Helen recognized but not in her son's gang, sounds like a description by Helen of the real killer (just as was Helen’s physical description to Odum Nov 22, and to Croy at the crime scene), which has mistakenly been mixed up in the family telling into a doubled figure standing with Oswald as Oswald shot Tippit. I strongly doubt Oswald was there at all. There was only one gunman, Helen’s public and questionable identification of Oswald, and Helen's private description of the killer to family, the “Italian” of darker complexion even though a white man, and thicker and bushier and darker hair than Oswald. 

The story of the allegedly separate 10th and Marsalis stabbing and loading of a body into a station wagon reads to me as mistaken, as an early misunderstood hearsay report of the ambulance removing Tippit’s body itself, not some separate incident at the same time for which there is zero police report evidence and no credible witness testimony stronger than ancient misunderstanding of hearsay in the minutes following the Tippit killing as the news spread, "have you heard...?". 

But the family story that Helen Markham said she had been asked in advance to be there; her closer vantage point where she stood when the killing happened; and the implied if not actual threat concerning her witness identification, combined with the family claims that Helen received sums of money as apparent rewards related to her testimony, sound possible. 

The claim that Helen saw two police officers standing nearby at the time of the killing, who watched but did not intervene or chase the killer, sounds like the Doris Holan story, hard to know how to interpret that. Doris Holan’s story of seeing a patrol car which was not Tippit's and movements of two men across from her window is believable but Doris Holan was living on Patton not Tenth at the time (also in the Doris Holan story the two men are not identified necessarily as police officers). Perhaps Helen’s story of the two officers on Tenth as told by the family which sounds almost exactly like the Holan story, is a mixture of Helen describing her real memories of Croy the first officer at the Tippit crime scene, and the separate Doris Holan story, mistakenly conflated in the family telling. McMahon notes that Virginia Davis said when she and her sister went out of their house on Tenth there were police already there but was Virginia correct on that detail. Perhaps Croy was there earlier than he said, or Helen's time sense was distorted in those minutes of trauma, or she confused Callaway who went to the body of Tippit with the officer Helen said went to the body of Tippit before leaving and then returning again (which is what Callaway did, Callaway who was mistakenly thought to be an officer by Scoggins).

One thing McMahon brings out is that Myers was just wrong in saying the Doris Holan story told by Brownlow and Pulte was not credible on any level. 

According to McMahon, Lad Holan Jr's sister says today her mother’s story was told by her mother and was true, and that she (Lad’s sister) tried to tell that to Myers at the time Myers was writing his article to no avail. That sounds a bit different than Myers ringing conclusion of his article (after a correct repositioning of where the Holan family was living on Nov 22) that there was nothing to the Doris Holan story as told by Brownlow and Pulte “on any level”, even though the essential points of the Doris Holan story, told as Mrs. Holan knew she was dying, make better sense from the correct Patton Street address window’s vantage point as a witness, than from the incorrect mistaken address. 

It is interesting that three members of Helen’s son’s criminal gang, according to McMahon’s information, were Tenth and Patton vicinity witnesses (Smith, Smith, and Burt). Jimmy Burt’s car was seen by another witness parked in an unusual way next to Tippit’s patrol car only seconds after the shot although Jimmy Burt himself gave conflicting stories. I don’t believe James Markham’s street gang of petty crime carried out the professional execution of officer Tippit, an extremely serious thing, but the Helen Markham story (as refracted through the telling of the family now later) raises questions whether gang members were enlisted in some role not realizing it would be a murder. 

Edited March 9 by Greg Doudna

[Pete Mellor]

17 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Very interesting article and presentations of Gavan McMahon. 

On Scoggins being asked in advance by a Ruby associate to be parked there with his cab at the time Tippit was shot, as told by his grandson, the story is believable but the interpretation of that as a planted witness seems to be the wrong interpretation of the fact cited. 

As a later questioner in the video commented, Scoggins (parked around the corner) was not in a good position to witness directly. That is not what that would have been about. Instead, it would be to have the option of a cab at hand for a killer to have for a getaway. 

Scoggins surely had no knowledge there was going to be a killing. Scoggins told of after hearing the shots, of getting out of and away from his cab immediately as part of cabbie street sense, because of a high risk of being carjacked or forced to drive at gunpoint if the cabbie remains in the car. By getting out of his cab immediately, Scoggins removed the ability of the Tippit killer to utilize him as a driver in that way, if the killer had so wished.

If the grandson’s story is true of what his grandfather told his father, it supports what other grounds indicate, that the Tippit killing was a premeditated execution. 

The Helen Markham family story of Helen’s story, as told in the interviews of McMahon, is interesting but must be suspected to have some mistaken interpretations of family members mixed in not from Helen, or not from Helen's personal knowledge. I personally think the James Markham Oswald gang member and Tolliver story is completely bogus (James came up with that in prison and it sounds like total fabrication) and I doubt it stems from any firsthand knowledge of Helen even if the daughter-in-law today thinks so. 

Instead, what McMahon (in the Garrison article) tells from the family, of Helen’s “second gunman” with Oswald, the “Italian” or mob-related man that Helen recognized but not in her son's gang, sounds like a description by Helen of the real killer (just as was Helen’s physical description to Odum Nov 22, and to Croy at the crime scene), which has mistakenly been mixed up in the family telling into a doubled figure standing with Oswald as Oswald shot Tippit. I strongly doubt Oswald was there at all. There was only one gunman, Helen’s public and questionable identification of Oswald, and Helen's private description of the killer to family, the “Italian” of darker complexion even though a white man, and thicker and bushier and darker hair than Oswald. 

The story of the allegedly separate 10th and Marsalis stabbing and loading of a body into a station wagon reads to me as mistaken, as an early misunderstood hearsay report of the ambulance removing Tippit’s body itself, not some separate incident at the same time for which there is zero police report evidence and no credible witness testimony stronger than ancient misunderstanding of hearsay in the minutes following the Tippit killing as the news spread, "have you heard...?". 

But the family story that Helen Markham said she had been asked in advance to be there; her closer vantage point where she stood when the killing happened; and the implied if not actual threat concerning her witness identification, combined with the family claims that Helen received sums of money as apparent rewards related to her testimony, sound possible. 

The claim that Helen saw two police officers standing nearby at the time of the killing, who watched but did not intervene or chase the killer, sounds like the Doris Holan story, hard to know how to interpret that. Doris Holan’s story of seeing a patrol car which was not Tippit's and movements of two men across from her window is believable but Doris Holan was living on Patton not Tenth at the time (also in the Doris Holan story the two men are not identified necessarily as police officers). Perhaps Helen’s story of the two officers on Tenth as told by the family which sounds almost exactly like the Holan story, is a mixture of Helen describing her real memories of Croy the first officer at the Tippit crime scene, and the separate Doris Holan story, mistakenly conflated in the family telling. McMahon notes that Virginia Davis said when she and her sister went out of their house on Tenth there were police already there but was Virginia correct on that detail. Perhaps Croy was there earlier than he said, or Helen's time sense was distorted in those minutes of trauma, or she confused Callaway who went to the body of Tippit with the officer Helen said went to the body of Tippit before leaving and then returning again (which is what Callaway did, Callaway who was mistakenly thought to be an officer by Scoggins).

One thing McMahon brings out is that Myers was just wrong in saying the Doris Holan story told by Brownlow and Pulte was not credible on any level. 

According to McMahon, Lad Holan Jr's sister says today her mother’s story was told by her mother and was true, and that she (Lad’s sister) tried to tell that to Myers at the time Myers was writing his article to no avail. That sounds a bit different than Myers ringing conclusion of his article (after a correct repositioning of where the Holan family was living on Nov 22) that there was nothing to the Doris Holan story as told by Brownlow and Pulte “on any level”, even though the essential points of the Doris Holan story, told as Mrs. Holan knew she was dying, make better sense from the correct Patton Street address window’s vantage point as a witness, than from the incorrect mistaken address. 

It is interesting that three members of Helen’s son’s criminal gang, according to McMahon’s information, were Tenth and Patton vicinity witnesses (Smith, Smith, and Burt). Jimmy Burt’s car was seen by another witness parked in an unusual way next to Tippit’s patrol car only seconds after the shot although Jimmy Burt himself gave conflicting stories. I don’t believe James Markham’s street gang of petty crime carried out the professional execution of officer Tippit, an extremely serious thing, but the Helen Markham story (as refracted through the telling of the family now later) raises questions whether gang members were enlisted in some role not realizing it would be a murder. 

Very interesting comments Greg.  I do think that the events at Tenth & Patton were as contentious as Dealey Plaza.  As for McMahon's presentation, the two parts lasted over four hours and I missed a couple of small sections.  I do need to repeat Part II, especially the Markham gang stuff.  I would really like to read the Garrison article too. So far I'm not sure what to make of McMahon's research, but I'm past the point of being surprised by anything in this case.  

 

[Tom Gram]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:45 PM, Greg Doudna said:

According to McMahon, Lad Holan Jr's sister says today her mother’s story was told by her mother and was true, and that she (Lad’s sister) tried to tell that to Myers at the time Myers was writing his article to no avail.

Interesting. As you know, I disagree that Doris Holan’s placement on Patton by Myers is an established fact. I agree that it’s possible, and even quite probable given the range of dates in question, but it is not and should not be considered a “correct” and established fact; and I think the available evidence proves that very specific but important point. 

The only credible item of evidence Myers presents is the Christmas letter, which dates the move to Patton to around December 21st-24th, at the latest. A post-assassination move in the prior 3-4 week window is not at all impossible, especially considering the circumstances. 

This McMahon anecdote about Lad Holan’s sister, if credible, which is a big if, adds weight to the notion of a post-assassination move. The sister was Myers’ source for the Christmas letter. Doris Holan’s story, as told by Pulte and Brownlow without any unsubstantiated garbling of the basic street address, places her on 10th street directly across the street from the Tippit shooting. Your analysis that the “essential points” make more sense from Patton is definitely interesting, but far from conclusive. Also, Doris Holan did live on 10th street directly across the street from the Tippit shooting in 1963. The only thing in question is the exact date of the move. 

If the sister really tried to tell Myers that her mother told the truth to Pulte and Brownlow, does that mean she disputed her brother Lad’s highly questionable 58-year-old memory of an earlier move to Patton? She must’ve been aware of Myers’ thesis, right? Myers included the following line in his article, but he has not released tapes and/or transcripts of his interviews with either Lad or the sister, so we have no idea what was actually said by either of them.

Lad and his youngest sister both told me that their mother was lucid and in full control of her mental faculties right up until the end. [79]

[79] Interview of Lad A. Holan, Jr., June 6, 2020, p.20; Interview of Holan family member, June 3, 2020, p.10

It also looks like Myers interviewed the sister before he ever interviewed Lad, but never reinterviewed her, which is kind of interesting. 

This was discussed a while back in a different thread, but deserves repeating. Dale Myers’ discussion of the canvassing dates for the ‘64 Dallas City Directory is at best misleading and at worst a deliberate deception. The following FBI document confirms that the canvassing months for the 1964 Polk Dallas City Directory began in December ‘63. The ‘64 edition was not ready for agents to view on 5/7/64, so they reviewed the 1963 edition instead. The canvassing months for the 1963 directory began in September ‘62. Credit goes to @Tony Krome for tipping me off to this. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=568

The only potential confusion is that the agents refer to the ‘63 edition they reviewed as the “Greater Dallas” city directory, whereas the Polk representative Miss Gabriel did not use the word “Greater”. Since the “Greater” directory included metropolitan Dallas, it makes little sense that there would be an entirely separate canvassing and earlier released edition of a Polk “Greater Dallas” city directory with a majority of duplicate entries to a later released “Dallas” directory that included only metropolitan Dallas. 

This is not 100% clear, but unless someone can prove otherwise, I think the evidence indicates that the 1964 Polk “Greater Dallas” and “Dallas” city directories are one and the same.

However, according to the FBI document, there was a 1964 “Greater Dallas Alphabetical Telephone” directory with a May ‘64 edition that was available for viewing by the FBI agents on 5/7/64. The canvassing months for this telephone directory are not listed, but it did contain address information. Would there be separate address canvassing months for both the Polk telephone and city directories in a particular year? Wouldn’t that be a massive waste of resources? This is speculation, but it seems to me like the full directory may have just taken a bit longer to publish due to additional content, but both publications relied on the same source material obtained from the same canvassing months. 

So why does any of this matter? One of Myers’ primary items of “evidence” for his Doris Holan article was his “determination” that the canvassing months for the 1964 Dallas City Directory covered the period of the assassination. Myers describes his source for the Holans’ Patton St. address in his article as the “1964 R.L. Polk city directory”, or the “1964 Dallas City Directory” i.e. NOT the Alphabetical Telephone Directory. He also does not mention anything about a separate Polk “Greater Dallas” directory: 

Questions about the Holan family’s residency arose almost immediately when it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory (which covered the period of the assassination) [117] showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue – around the corner from the Tippit shooting scene.

Fig.13 - Dallas City Directory listing for Doris E. Holan (the middle initial 'C' is incorrect).

[117] The R.L. Polk Company was contacted regarding canvasing for the 1964 Dallas City Directory. They stated that “those types of records/information are not available anywhere. With the company being sold a few times over the last 15 years, this type of information was not saved.” I subsequently searched the Dallas Morning Newsnewspaper archives for two days looking for articles or ‘want ads’ relating to canvasing by the R.L. Polk Company during the years 1905-65 with an emphasis on the period 1962-1965. I was able to determine the following: The listings for R.L. Polk & Company’s Greater Dallas City Directory were compiled between late September and mid-December the year prior to publication. Persons were hired to canvas residential areas door-to-door. Two attempts were made to contact residents and then a card was left to be filled out and mailed back. The directory was then published and distributed about 7 months later. Consequently, the Greater Dallas 1964 directory listings were gathered in September-December of 1963 and published in early June, 1964.

The 1964 Polk Dallas City Directory did NOT “cover the period of the assassination”, so Myers’ endnote here is more than a little dubious. The relevant canvassing months for the ‘64 directory were available in a quick search of the MFF website. IF Myers knew that the ‘64 canvassing months began in December ‘63, he straight up lied to his readers. If he didn’t, his article is still inaccurate and misleading.

The above linked FBI document is a WC Exhibit, CE1334, and is literally the first result that pops up on MFF for a query of “Polk and canvass”. I’ll leave it at that. 

I know I’m splitting hairs here to establish a 3-4 week window for a completely hypothetical post-assassination move to Patton, but imagine if it was the other way around and a pro-conspiracy writer made the same type of “mistake”, and that “mistake” just happened to bolster their case…

If I’m missing any details or am wrong about anything, I’ll be happy to correct it. 

Edited March 10 by Tom Gram

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

This was discussed a while back in a different thread, but deserves repeating. Dale Myers’ discussion of the canvassing dates for the ‘64 Dallas City Directory is at best misleading and at worst a deliberate deception. The following FBI document confirms that the canvassing months for the 1964 Polk Dallas City Directory began in December ‘63. (. . .) Credit goes to @Tony Krome for tipping me off to this. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=568

Correct that that document shows the 1964 Polk Dallas directory canvassing "was initiated December 1963" and was completed in March 1964. Myers erred in claiming, based on not getting specific answer from the Polk Company directly on the question of the "when" of the canvassing, giving the usual range of months of canvassing for Polk Dallas directories in most years as Sept-Dec. But forget the deliberate deception, it was clearly an oversight in that Myers missed that document.

6 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Interesting. As you know, I disagree that Doris Holan’s placement on Patton by Myers is an established fact. I agree that it’s possible, and even quite probable given the range of dates in question, but it is not and should not be considered a “correct” and established fact; and I think the available evidence proves that very specific but important point. 

The only credible item of evidence Myers presents is the Christmas letter, which dates the move to Patton to around December 21st-24th, at the latest. A post-assassination move in the prior 3-4 week window is not at all impossible, especially considering the circumstances. 

This McMahon anecdote about Lad Holan’s sister, if credible, which is a big if, adds weight to the notion of a post-assassination move. The sister was Myers’ source for the Christmas letter. Doris Holan’s story, as told by Pulte and Brownlow without any unsubstantiated garbling of the basic street address, places her on 10th street directly across the street from the Tippit shooting. Your analysis that the “essential points” make more sense from Patton is definitely interesting, but far from conclusive. Also, Doris Holan did live on 10th street directly across the street from the Tippit shooting in 1963. The only thing in question is the exact date of the move.

(. . .)

I know I’m splitting hairs here to establish a 3-4 week window for a completely hypothetical post-assassination move to Patton, but imagine if it was the other way around and a pro-conspiracy writer made the same type of “mistake”, and that “mistake” just happened to bolster their case…

If I’m missing any details or am wrong about anything, I’ll be happy to correct it. 

Myers did incorrectly cite an incorrect date for the canvassing of Sept-Dec, as support for his argument that the Holans were living on Patton on Nov 22, 1963. You raise the question of evidence, contending it is not proven that the family was on Patton on that date, instead of 10th Street of the Brownlow-Pulte retelling of Doris Holan's story.

Your comments sent me back to Myers' article again, which is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=568.

But the hard facts are that there is a late 1962 listing of the Holans at the 10th St. address and no hard confirmation that they are there later than late 1962. There is the Holan daughter's Christmas letter establishing the Patton Street address in mid-Dec 1963. And they moved from 10th to Patton some time between those two dates. But there is this:

• Lad Holan Jr. says he and his mother and siblings were living at the Patton Street address on Nov 22, 1963, because he remembers that day.
• Lad's mother's car, Doris Holan's car, is photographed on Nov 22, 1963 parked in front of the Patton Street address, and not parked on 10th Street even though other photos of that day show no difficulty in finding parking on 10th Street.
• No surviving Holan family member says otherwise on where they were living on Nov 22, 1963.
• Myers says one unidentified Holan family member today told him the Holans moved to Patton in Sept 1963, which would be a second current Holan family member today, in addition to Lad Jr., who says they were at Patton on Nov 22, 1963, with no family member known saying differently.

I don't think this leaves ambiguity about it.

The only argument for a 10th Street address for the Holans on Nov 22 that I can see are two things: the first is the Brownlow-Pulte claim that that is where the Holans were living on Nov 22, which cannot be known to come from Doris Holan, but one might argue could have come from Doris Holan, as one way of accounting for why Brownlow-Pulte thought that. But because Brownlow makes other mistakes, is citing hearsay, there is no recording or transcription of the interview, and the 10th Street address is contradicted by all of the above, the obvious explanation is Brownlow superimposed that 10th Street address mistake mixed into his retelling of the real Doris Holan story which should be understood from the Patton Street address's window's vantage point.

The other is McMahon reports, primarily from a daughter-in-law of Helen Markham, a claim that Helen Markham saw a police car and two officers on 10th Street, similar to the Doris Holan story told by Brownlow-Pulte which they also believed Doris Holan had on 10th. Again, the argument here is these distant hearsay reports are too weak to overcome the hard evidence--two living Holan family members today say they were living on Patton on Nov 22, 1963 (how would one get that wrong for that date?) with no family member today or any direct statement from any family member ever claiming otherwise; Doris Holan's car photographed parked on Patton on Nov 22; a postmarked letter confirms them at Patton mid-Dec 1963 only 3-4 weeks later.  

Gavan McMahon's article reporting his research and interviews with the Markham family and other Tippit crime scene witness discussion appears in the current, Dec 2023 issue of Garrison, available as electronic download here (for $12.99): https://www.lulu.com/shop/midnight-writer-news-publications/garrison-the-journal-of-history-deep-politics-issue-015-ebook/ebook/product-rmmzwwm.html?page=1&pageSize=4. The McMahon article is 57 pages in length, pp. 154-211. McMahon writes, pp. 174-75:

"Doris Holan's son, Lad Holan, was 13 years old on November 22, 1963. He was on his way home from school in Oak Cliff when he came across the Tippit scene, just after the shooting. Lad said that his mother didn't discuss with him what she saw that day. However, according to Lad, his mother did discuss with Lad's sister (name withheld) what she saw that day at the Tippit scene.

"According to Lad's sister, this is what her mother, Doris Holan, told her:

1) She was on the second floor.

2) She saw two men on a corner.

3) She was looking out a window and saw Oswald quite clearly.

4) He was running toward/between the houses.

5) A police car drove through the driveway.

6) She told the police this and they told detectives. She didn't think they passed it on to anyone else.

7) She said it was like they didn't want Oswald caught.

(Interview and written correspondence -- Lad Holan and Gavan McMahon)

"Holan's daughter has confirmed that her mother told her she was at the Tippit scene at the time of the shooting, saw two men on a corner, saw Oswald and told police what she saw. Importantly, she has also provided further corroboration of a second police car, driving through a driveway, between the houses.

"Dale Myers published an article on November 19, 2020, refuting the claims of Brownlow and Pulte. In the final paragraph of his article Myers states, in part, 'The Doris E. Holan story--as presented by Pulte, Brownlow and their surrogates--is not credible on any level.' Given Holan's daughter's statements, it is clear the Doris Holan story is very credible at all levels.

"In his 2020 article, Myers made the following comment about Lad, and his sister. 'I found the recollections of the Lad A. Holan, Jr., and other family members to be highly credible.' This statement about the credibility of Lad and his sister is accurate. But apparently, according to Lad Holan, his sister said she told Dale Myers, in 2020, what her mother had told her she saw at the Tippit scene. If this is correct, then this means that Myers failed to disclose in his 2020 article, the information that Doris Holan's daughter told him, as outlined above i.e., she was at Tippit scene, saw two men on a corner, saw Oswald, and saw a second police car drive through a driveway. This information was at the crux of the research and should have informed the Myers article. Why did Myers not publish what Lad's sister told him? This is quite disturbing if correct. It is incumbent on researchers to provide full research findings or risk losing credibility."

McMahon does not take a position on the Holans' address on Nov 22, 1963 in his article so far as I can tell. But McMahan states one point on which he and Myers are in agreement: that both Lad Holan Jr. and his sister are credible. It is practically certain that sister of Lad Jr, who in both Myers' and McMahon's studies requested not to be named and that request was honored, is the unnamed family member cited by Myers who told Myers the Holan family moved from 10th to Patton in Sept 1963. And Lad Jr. was emphatic and is on the record that he as well as his mother and family were living at the Patton Street address on Nov 22, 1963.

I know where I was living when I was 9 years old on the day President Kennedy was assassinated. I don't think Lad Jr. was mistaken on what he repeatedly told Myers was his certainty on where he and his mother were living on Nov 22, 1963. 

I conclude that the Helen Markham story as told by the family is a mixture of some valuable true information mixed with unfortunately heavy doses of mistaken information, and discussions will undoubtedly go on for some time attempting to decipher what is real there from what is mistaken or bogus. I don't believe the Helen Markham story as mediated through the family today is sufficient cause to overthrow the solid grounds for the Patton Street address for the Holan family on Nov 22, 1963. I think Myers got that address for the Holans right, he broke that story and was right on that, and because of the importance of these witness stories, it matters to get that location of Doris Holan right. 

And a thank you to Gavan McMahon for the hard work and labor and the publication of the interviews, and to the family members for telling what they know, of these fragments of oral history, flawed as they may be, captured in time before they slowly fade away forever. 

Edited March 10 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Kalin]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Correct that that document shows the 1964 Polk Dallas directory canvassing "was initiated December 1963" and was completed in March 1964. Myers erred in claiming, based on not getting specific answer from the Polk Company directly on the question of the "when" of the canvassing, giving the usual range of months of canvassing for Polk Dallas directories in most years as Sept-Dec. But forget the deliberate deception, it was clearly an oversight in that Myers missed that document.

An oversight that Myers missed a critical document? Not likely. An ace investigator/researcher should have been conversant with CE1334. Regardless, please let me know when he slipstreams this correction into his weblog.

A question relevant to the police car in the driveway story is how did it exit? Passage to the alley running between Patton & Denver may have been possible on foot, but it's doubtful that a car could get through. See Duke Lane's comment posted 11/23/05.

[Tom Gram]

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Myers says one unidentified Holan family member today told him the Holans moved to Patton in Sept 1963, which would be a second current Holan family member today, in addition to Lad Jr., who says they were at Patton on Nov 22, 1963, with no family member known saying differently.

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

It is practically certain that sister of Lad Jr, who in both Myers' and McMahon's studies requested not to be named and that request was honored, is the unnamed family member cited by Myers who told Myers the Holan family moved from 10th to Patton in Sept 1963.

We’ve been over this before, and Myers’ endnote on this is about as vague as it gets. His only citation on the endnote in question goes to the 3/26/21 interview of Lad Holan. (Separate issue but I seem to remember this endnote previously citing one of the earlier Holan interviews). 

[28] Interview of Lad A. Holan, Jr., March 26, 2021, Pt.2, p.24

[29] Ibid.

[30] Ibid., p.25

[31] Ibid., p.4 [NOTE: According to one family member, the Holan family was living at 113 ½ S. Patton by September, 1963, although the exact date could not be confirmed by other family members.]

Myers’ 6/3/20 interview with the sister is cited separately, repeatedly, and as I quoted in my previous comment in tandem with interviews of Lad on other endnotes. If the sister was the source, why wouldn’t Myers just say so? Why use a “NOTE:” in this specific instance that is so important as evidentiary support for Myers’ thesis? Is it just a coincidence that “by September” happens to line up with Myers’ falsely reported canvassing months for the ‘64 Dallas City Directory? Did Myers’ share that incorrect information with this “one family member” prior to inquiring about the date of the move?  

Also I have to agree with Michael on this. You yourself have expressed skepticism that Myers could have missed Markham’s initial FBI interview for his book. It is not “clearly an oversight” that Myers missed CE1334 in researching his Holan article. That document was very easy to find. It is reasonable to question that anyone specifically researching Dallas city directory canvassing months, especially an experienced JFK nut like Myers could have missed it. It is an unknown - an either/or situation. 

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

“Why did Myers not publish what Lad's sister told him? This is quite disturbing if correct. It is incumbent on researchers to provide full research findings or risk losing credibility." - Gavin McMahon

McMahon is absolutely correct. This is why nothing Myers says on this should be taken at face value without tapes or verified transcripts of his interviews. Is it really that big of a jump from not disclosing critical, contradictory testimony from an interview to not disclosing a critical contradictory document on the canvassing months? 

Again, based strictly on probability, we’re on the same page on the address, but it is not a certainty, and I think it’s reasonable to be skeptical of Myers’ “evidence” here. 

Bottom line, Myers needs to correct his article and release his interview tapes. 

Edited March 10 by Tom Gram

[Greg Doudna]

Tom G., I know how often I despite best efforts will fail to find some document or make mistakes so I hesitate to interpret what is easily explained as oversight as wilful malevolence on the part of others, unless there is a certain threshold of compelling reason to suppose so which I don't see in this instance. Its the easiest thing in the world to find some inadvertent error in someone's work and call them a liar, and how does someone prove their innocence from such a charge, and its a conversation stopper. A charge that another writer is lying, like crying "wolf", is a serious charge to be done only sparingly with a high threshold of confidence.

In this case Myers says he contacted the Polk Directory publishers attempting to answer the specific question at issue and, with Polk now under changed ownership since then, was told there was no specific information for 1963 from the company. That Myers might not then think to also go search on MFF for a document which in fact did give the answer to that question that the Polk company itself was unable to provide when asked directly is not so hard for me to imagine since if I had got that answer from Polk I don't know that I would think the answer was anywhere else. And most important of all, it is not a critical point in Myers' argument, it is not as if anything depends on the point; the (mistaken) "Sept-Dec" canvassing does not conclusively prove the Holans were canvassed prior to Nov 23, 1963 (could have been after a move Dec 1 if that "Sept-Dec" canvassing dates were all there was), and Myers' establishment of the Holans' Patton Street address on Nov 22, 1963 is established independently on other grounds which are unaffected. So it does not add up to me that Myers was wilfully cooking his evidence deceptively on this point in a way that sharp-eyed critics would easily find and call him out--which few writers enjoy being on the receiving end of because it is embarrassing--on that point. I am just telling what runs through my mind when I see this. (Also, in the interests of accuracy could you edit your final quotation of me in your above to make clear that is not my words saying that about Myers but McMahon's words from his article? Thanks.) 

Edited March 10 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

I agree with you on this though Tom:

6 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Bottom line, Myers needs to correct his article and release his interview tapes. 

To my knowledge Myers has never released tapes or transcripts of the enormous quantity of interviews he has carried out, and no known statement of intention to do so or arrangements to donate his papers and materials to a university archive to be made accessible to researchers in the future. He has carried out and reported a ton of research and yet as with 90% of published JFK research, in the end it depends on trust in the honesty and competence of the reporter. As the saying goes, its not that one doesn't trust, its that one wishes one didn't have to. 

It is ironic that Myers in his Doris Holan piece eviscerates Brownlow, gives him no quarter. And yet Brownlow in his "Shattered Friday" videos published more interviews of witnesses, more verifiable primary data, than Myers, who has published no videos or recordings or full transcripts of interviews.

At the end of his evisceration of Brownlow and Pulte, Myers takes Pulte to task for not being responsive to his request for a transcript of their interview with Doris Holan.

"My written request for a transcript of the interview or any documentation that would support Doris E. Holan living at 409 E. Tenth Street on November 22, 1963, was also ignored by Professor Pulte. To date, neither Pulte nor Brownlow have produced anything to support the contents of what Doris Holan reportedly told them."

Its a fair inquiry, but it is ironic that it comes from a researcher who has never made available a full interview transcript of his own, or "produced anything to support the contents of what" some of his witnesses have told him.  

[Tom Gram]

Myers corrected his article: 

Questions about the Holan family’s residency arose almost immediately when it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue – around the corner from the Tippit shooting scene. 

While it was initially thought that the 1964 Dallas City Directory listings were gathered between September and December 1963 (which covered the period of the assassination), and therefore was indicative of the Holan’s living on Patton on November 22, 1963, it was subsequently learned that the listings were gathered between December 1963 and March 19, 1964, and therefore did not reflect where the Holan’s were living on the day of the assassination. [117]

Myers used the CD number instead of the CE number as his primary revised citation, but at least he mentioned both: 

[117] CD1066, p.213 (FBI Report, Interview of Naomi Gabriel, May 8, 1964, p.2) [Note: In the original version of this article, I reported: “…it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory (which covered the period of the assassination) showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue.” In the original footnote to that statement, I reported: “The R.L. Polk Company was contacted regarding canvasing for the 1964 Dallas City Directory. They stated that ‘those types of records/information are not available anywhere. With the company being sold a few times over the last 15 years, this type of information was not saved.’ I subsequently searched the Dallas Morning Newsnewspaper archives for two days looking for articles or ‘want ads’ relating to canvasing by the R.L. Polk Company during the years 1905-65 with an emphasis on the period 1962-1965. I was able to determine the following: The listings for R.L. Polk & Company’s Greater Dallas City Directory were compiled between late September and mid-December the year prior to publication. Persons were hired to canvas residential areas door-to-door. Two attempts were made to contact residents and then a card was left to be filled out and mailed back. The directory was then published and distributed about 7 months later. Consequently (I concluded at the time), the Greater Dallas 1964 directory listings were gathered in September-December of 1963 and published in early June, 1964.” On March 9, 2023, critics noted that a 1964 FBI report (published as CE1334) stated that “The canvas for the 1964 [R.L. Polk] Dallas Directory was initiated December 1963 (no specific date included) and completed March 19, 1964…The directory is expected to be delivered to directory customers around June 1, 1964.” (CD1066, p.213; also, 22H539 CE1334, p.16) This article was subsequently revised to reflect this information.

The document was incredibly easy to find. It was a WC Exhibit and literally the #1 result on MFF for multiple basic queries including “directory and canvass”, “Polk and canvass”, “Polk and directory“, and even just “Dallas City Directory”. It strains credulity that Myers could have missed it, especially since according to Myers, the canvassing dates were one of the primary reasons he decided to research the Doris Holan story in the first place.

Just to be clear though, I never accused Myers or “charged” him with lying. I only stated that IF Myers knew about CE1334, he lied to his readers, which is a fact, not an accusation. Myers, to use Greg’s word, has “eviscerated” other researchers for sloppy mistakes in the past, questioned their credibility, and so on. Especially with this new information from Gavan McMahon on Lad Holan’s sister corroborating Pulte and Brownlow in her interview with Myers, I don’t think it’s inappropriate to ask the same types of questions about Myers that Myers regularly asks about others. 

Also dangit, I didn’t get any credit. I’m devastated. Original credit goes to Tony Krome though, so I guess “critics noted” is fair enough. Myers got the date wrong too, which is kind of amusing. He wrote critics noted on “March 9, 2023”, not 2024. EDIT: Myers subsequently fixed the date. 

The canvassing error was originally discussed by Tony and myself in November 2023. I subsequently posted CE1334 in Tony’s thread on the vacant house with the Randle phone number. To be fair, I was surprised I hadn’t seen it earlier too - but I was never specifically looking for that info until Tony brought it up. Myers supposedly went through all the trouble of contacting the R.L. Polk company and digging through newspaper archives without doing a single MFF search. 

Tony wondered why Myers would focus on the years 1962-1965 and not just ‘63 - 64. Now I’m kind of curious again to see what Myers actually used from those DMN archives to conclude that the ‘64 canvassing dates began in September ‘63: 

Now where are those interview tapes? 

Edited March 12 by Tom Gram

[Michael Kalin]

8 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Myers corrected his article: 

Questions about the Holan family’s residency arose almost immediately when it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue – around the corner from the Tippit shooting scene. 

While it was initially thought that the 1964 Dallas City Directory listings were gathered between September and December 1963 (which covered the period of the assassination), and therefore was indicative of the Holan’s living on Patton on November 22, 1963, it was subsequently learned that the listings were gathered between December 1963 and March 19, 1964, and therefore did not reflect where the Holan’s were living on the day of the assassination. [117]

So Tarquinius Superbus eats humble pie! Thanks for posting this, Tom.