How did the Dallas Police learn on Nov 22 that Oswald had driven a car on Nov 11?

[Greg Doudna]

Just now, Steve Thomas said:

Greg,

I don't know how Green got his info from the DPD. He doesn't say.

I personally think it is highly significant that Oswald got picked up by a bus in front of the Rio Grande Building. To me, that's the only reason he headed east when he left the TSBD, but my view is not shared by very many other people.

He may have been intercepted out in the street by somebody who told him to make himself scarce and make his way to some pre-arranged pik-up point.

Do a Forum search for The Rio Grande Building.

Steve Thomas

Maybe it was reading something from you that put that into my mind, I don't remember, but I for one find your suggestion very plausible.

[Greg Doudna]

5 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg,

You place a lot of faith on Dial Duwayne Ryder's story. If you read through all the FBI reports, his WC testimony and the most damning the Hunter Schmidt testimony, you will find mega conflicting accounts. 

Even a Dallas FBI agent doubted it FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 160 (maryferrell.org)

Dallas Times Herald reporter Hunter Schmidt broke the story, after finally locating Ryder in Irving and calling him on the phone. Ryder then denied it. That's when Ryder began getting really fuzzy on details.  Liebler tried to get to the bottom on it, because one of them was obviously lying. Would a Times Herald reporter just make this story up out of the blue? Of course not.

I know Greener tried to paint Ryder in a good light, but the kid obviously got caught. 

Steve, I know that Dial Ryder and Hunter Schmidt episode well and discussed it in my Irving Sport Shop paper. Yes, obviously, of course, Hunter Schmidt was the truthful one and Dial Ryder was lying, between the two, in their conflict of testimony to the Warren Commission. Ryder had told Schmidt truthful things over the phone which Ryder then lied in denying he had told Schmidt. 

The kid was not caught lying to Schmidt in the phone call to Schmidt. He was caught lying in denying that he had participated in that phone call to Schmidt.

There really had been a customer, there was a written job ticket, etc., just as Schmidt reported from what Dial Ryder had told him. What Dial Ryder told Schmidt was true; it was Dial Ryder's denial that he had told Schmidt that, that was untrue. 

What happened was Schmidt woke Dial Ryder up and Dial talked to him over the phone (Schmidt sought out Dial, not vice versa, in that phone call, n.b.), then when Dial's boss Greener a few hours later read about it in the newspaper and it was national news--which Dial Ryder had already told the FBI but not his own boss Greener about--Greener asked Dial in what can only imagine might be colorful language, what was going on. That's when Dial Ryder attempted to backtrack, starting with lying to his boss Greener in denying any such phone call had occurred. But Dial was lying, there had been a phone call, Schmidt's story was true about what Dial had said in that phone call, and even more to the point, the content told by Dial Ryder in that phone call was true--the same content that Dial Ryder had already told to the FBI on Monday Nov 25 (again, n.b., the FBI seeking out Dial Ryder that day, not vice versa).  

The FBI/Warren Commission's suggestion that Dial Ryder fabricated the whole story for publicity (because they could not explain the story any other way and believed mistakenly that the story had to be untrue on other grounds) ... was just baseless, it really was. It was an invented explanation to account for a mystery to which they believed had no other good explanation, so they made that one up (that Dial Ryder invented the story for publicity, forged the job ticket, etc.). 

The reason it can be known Dial Ryder did not fabricate that Oswald job ticket, apart from lack of any evidence he did, is Oswald was witnessed at the Furniture Mart store before he went to the Irving Sport Shop at Furniture Mart store owner Edith Whitworth's direction, after Oswald had asked Edith Whitworth for a gunsmith. Dial Ryder did not put Edith Whitworth up to that. No, Dial Ryder simply happened to be there working the counter, alone that day, at the Irving Sport Shop that morning when Oswald walked in the door, after Edith Whitworth sent him there.

Truly Dial Ryder was the one lying and Hunter Schmidt the one telling the truth, to the Warren Commission, in that conflict of testimony to which you refer, but you have got it wrong on what Dial Ryder was lying about in that conflict of testimony to the Warren Commission. 

[Steve Roe]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

The reason it can be known Dial Ryder did not fabricate that Oswald job ticket, apart from lack of any evidence he did, is Oswald was witnessed at the Furniture Mart store before he went to the Irving Sport Shop at Furniture Mart store owner Edith Whitworth's direction, after Oswald had asked Edith Whitworth for a gunsmith. Dial Ryder did not put Edith Whitworth up to that. No, Dial Ryder simply happened to be there working the counter, alone that day, at the Irving Sport Shop that morning when Oswald walked in the door, after Edith Whitworth sent him there.

Truly Dial Ryder was the one lying and Hunter Schmidt the one telling the truth, to the Warren Commission, in that conflict of testimony to which you refer, but you have got it wrong on what Dial Ryder was lying about in that conflict of testimony to the Warren Commission. 

Greg, this is not making sense. Now you say Oswald did enter the Irving Sport Shop from the info provided by Ms. Whitworth, which is highly questionable itself. So, was the claim ticket for Oswald's gun or not?

And why would Ryder say in his testimony he hung up the phone on Schmidt with "no comment"? Jim Lehrer of the Times Herald witnessed the Schmidt to Ryder call, and it went on for a few minutes. Lehrer, James (maryferrell.org)

[Greg Doudna]

45 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg, this is not making sense. Now you say Oswald did enter the Irving Sport Shop from the info provided by Ms. Whitworth, which is highly questionable itself. So, was the claim ticket for Oswald's gun or not?

And why would Ryder say in his testimony he hung up the phone on Schmidt with "no comment"? Jim Lehrer of the Times Herald witnessed the Schmidt to Ryder call, and it went on for a few minutes. Lehrer, James (maryferrell.org)

What does not make sense? Have you read my two studies (links in the opening post)? Yes, the Oswald job ticket produced by Ryder was a real job ticket, Oswald was there, Ryder repaired and reinstalled the scope base mount and scope on Oswald's rifle.

You ask why did Ryder say in his testimony that he hung up the phone on Schmidt with "no comment"? Because he was lying, in keeping with his lying answer to Greener denying there had been a phone call. Greener strongly did not want his shop to have worked on the rifle that assassinated the president. Ryder was in hot water with his boss. I am agreeing with you that the phone call happened as Schmidt said, and am saying that what Ryder told Schmidt in that phone call was true. 

The information provided by Edith Whitworth is not highly questionable. She was an experienced business owner, her testimony is very credible, there is nothing questionable about it. Lee and Marina clearly were in that store on the morning of Mon Nov 11. My papers give the reasons on that.

[Greg Doudna]

MORE ON JOHN THOMAS MASEN

Two more photos never before posted, from high school years late 1950s (found through old high school yearbooks from a sidebar on ancestry.com). ATTU agent Frank Ellsworth said Oswald was a startling lookalike to Masen when he saw him. An informant of Ellsworth in late 1964 told Ellsworth that a man he and his wife thought had been Oswald had bought ammo from him in October 1963. Ellsworth drove the informant by Masen's gun shore in Dallas and the informant recognized Masen as the man he had thought was Oswald. From some things Masen said, Ellsworth believed Masen was the so-called "Oswald" seen at the Sports Drome Rifle range which several customers there were certain had been Oswald (not to mention a few decades of CTs wasted energies continuing to the present day on that--apart from the man at the Sports Drome never claimed to be Oswald, that man, like Masen, was a crack shot, which Oswald was not). 

There is no known photo of Masen in 1963 but we have Ellsworth's word for it that in 1963 this man looked strikingly like Oswald. 

There is no evidence or reason to suppose Masen ever impersonated Oswald. His striking resemblance to Oswald in 1963 is entirely coincidence and all who thought this man was Oswald were mistaken identifications. 

But I will ask this: is it possible Masen might be the Shasteen barber shop customer in Irving who Shasteen thought he recognized as Oswald on television on Friday afternoon, Nov 22, 1963? 

Masen did not live in Irving, Masen's gun store business was not in Irving, and I can find no connection of his then-wife Claudia or Claudia's family, Masen's in-laws, in Irving. But Masen's connection with ATTU centers around an Irving connection. An Irving Police officer told the FBI of having known Masen since February 1963. Ellsworth of ATTU working undercover presented himself to Masen as if he, Ellsworth, was a corrupt Irving Police officer, which Masen believed. 

Masen looked like Oswald, which could account for why Shasteen thought Oswald on television was his customer. Masen was in Mexico extensively in the summer of 1963, and Shasteen's customer had been in Mexico and was wearing yellow shoes he had brought back from Mexico. Masen returned from Mexico about the time Shasteen's customer started getting haircuts in Shasteen's shop in Irving. Masen was a fluent Spanish speaker which agrees with Shasteen's customer having been in Mexico and indicating to Shasteen he would be going to Mexico and doing more shopping there again. 

Shasteen described his customer's hair in some detail and it is not a description of Oswald's hair. Shasteen said his customer was meticulous about his hair in getting frequent, every two weeks' haircuts to trim the length precisely to where his hair would be just short enough to almost stand up but just long enough that it did not stand up straight but could be partially slicked back. Shasteen was very specific about that. Shasteen's description could describe the hair style preference of the man in the photos below fast forwarded 4-5 years. It is about the length Shasteen describes, slicked back.  

Shasteen's customer wore a jumpsuit, coveralls, a type of clothing which (like the customer's yellow shoes bought in Mexico) was never seen or known or recovered for Oswald. Shasteen said his customer came in nearly every time in those coveralls. Masen was running a gun supplies store and probably doing gunsmithing during weekdays at his place of business perhaps involving oils and grease and machining work. Would those coveralls agree with what Masen might wear at his business before coming to Irving after his store hours on Fridays in Sept-Nov 1963? 

Shasteen's customer drove a car which Shasteen thought was Ruth Paine's station wagon. Ruth Paine had a two-tone green (light green and dark green) 1955 Chevy BelAir station wagon. Shasteen had seen Ruth's car enough around town such that when Oswald came on the news linked to Ruth Paine's house in Irving on Fri afternoon Nov 22, Shasteen made the connection. Looked like Oswald ... driving Ruth Paine's station wagon ... Shasteen put it together, decided it had to be Oswald. Then Shasteen put that together with a 14-year old bright kid with an attitude who had mouthed off in his shop one day crazy stuff about thinking blacks should be equal with whites and workers should get paid more fairly, which infuriated Shasteen who thought that sounded like Communism. And that connected to Oswald too, to Shasteen. I think Shasteen may have created in his mind that that boy was connected to his customer. If the boy was connected to the customer then the customer probably was not either Oswald or Masen but some unknown family in Irving with the boy being the man's son. But if Shasteen created a connection that was not really there, then the 14-year old may not be relevant to the customer's identity.  

I am thinking now the report of the Nov 20, 1963 men with the rifle and the silhouettes about 1/4 mile away from Dealey Plaza, with one of the men there being thought by someone to have looked like Oswald, and the "old" car that was noted to look like the car Oswald drove (!), may have been Masen and Masen's car, earlier on the day before he was arrested later that day.

The question is where did the Dallas Police get the idea on Fri Nov 22 that Oswald drove a car for which they appear to have had some description?

Another possibility occurs as to the mechanism for that: is it possible Shasteen phoned in about his customer Friday afternoon Nov 22? Shasteen was FBI agent Odum's barber, as Shasteen said in his Warren Commission testimony re Odum, "I know how to call him at any time", and Shasteen was informing to the FBI on other things. So it would be natural for Shasteen, once he came to determine (mistakenly) that Oswald had been a customer in his shop, that he would report it. Maybe that is how word got to the DPD Fri afternoon Nov 22 that there was a certain car Oswald was driving ... that was told to Oswald by Fritz as to its make and description, and Oswald when told replied, "that's Ruth Paine's car--leave her out of this!"

All that needs to be supposed is that Masen drove some old station wagon that by coincidence had some resemblance to Ruth Paine's station wagon... and that Masen was somehow spending time in Irving on some weekends in the Sept-Nov 1963 time frame. Masen was married and had one or two small children by this time so if he was in Irving would it be with his wife and children?--this is the weak point because I can't find any reason why Masen would be in Irving on some weekends stronger than the two Irving connections with Masen's gunrunning friends (which I admit is a bit weak).  

I don't know ... its a conjecture. I know the customer wasn't Oswald. Could he be Masen and have all these various points fall into place? Or is Masen another "false positive" on that Shasteen barbershop customer? Anyway, this is a fresh conjecture to either fly or be shot down, whatever the truth may be on this one.   
Edit March 12, 2024: an objection to Masen being the Shasteen barbershop customer is Shasteen said the hair color of his customer was “black-headed”, not jet black but “a shade of black”, and the customer would come in with hair uncombed and unoiled. But a physical description of Masen provided the FBI by Irving Police officer Snoga, who knew Masen, describes Masen’s hair as “sandy” in color. 

 

 

Edited March 13 by Greg Doudna

[Steve Roe]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:32 PM, Greg Doudna said:

What does not make sense? Have you read my two studies (links in the opening post)? Yes, the Oswald job ticket produced by Ryder was a real job ticket, Oswald was there, Ryder repaired and reinstalled the scope base mount and scope on Oswald's rifle

Greg, there's a problem with this. This claim ticket mentions: $4.50 for "drill/tap" new mounting holes ($1.50 per hole Hutson, T. A. (maryferrell.org) ) for the side mounted scope and $1.50 for bore sighting the rifle, grand total of $6.00.

Here's the problem, the scope on Oswald's Carcano has only 2 mount screws. That is confirmed here. Hutson, T. A. (maryferrell.org)

Additionally, I did check with a friend of mine that has the exact model scope on a model 91/38 Carcano......two mounting screws. 

Something's not adding up here. This call from WFAA Channel 8, which DPD Detective Fay Turner got the tip from (Ray John WFAA) was either a hoax, or a big misunderstanding. 

Edited March 11 by Steve Roe
Correct name

[Greg Doudna]

Steve R., the screw holes make sense as explained in my Irving Sport Shop paper at www.scrollery.com. I go into that in detail. The job ticket was writeup at intake at the counter with quoted price which is not necessarily what actually was done for which there was no record. The cash went into Ryder’s pocket and there was also no record of that. The anonymous phoned in tip was no hoax, though it is a puzzle who phoned it in. There is no evidence or reason Dial Ryder would or did initiate calls to any reporter over something that got him in a lot of hot water. Please I don’t mind criticism of my argument but ask that you read and know what you are criticizing first. 

Edited March 11 by Greg Doudna

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Steve R., the screw holes make sense as explained in my Irving Sport Shop paper at www.scrollery.com. I go into that in detail. The job ticket was writeup at intake at the counter with quoted price which is not necessarily what actually was done for which there was no record. The cash went into Ryder’s pocket and there was also no record of that. The anonymous phoned in tip was no hoax, though it is a puzzle who phoned it in. There is no evidence or reason Dial Ryder would or did initiate calls to any reporter over something that got him in a lot of hot water. Please I don’t mind criticism of my argument but ask that you read and know what you are criticizing first. 

My apologies Greg, I only scanned through your document. You indeed address this screw hole issue with this on page 18 of this link:

Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf (scrollery.com)

 

 

[Steve Roe]

On 3/11/2024 at 12:42 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Please I don’t mind criticism of my argument but ask that you read and know what you are criticizing first. 

Valid point Greg. Here's my first observation (there are others). It all boils down to whether Oswald drove Michael Paine's 1955 Oldsmobile sedan to the Furniture Mart. 

As per your article: Mrs. Whitworth, Warren Commission testimony: “I would say it was a blue and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth—it was something with fins on it.” 

In Michael Paine's WC testimony, he was a little wishy-washy on what year that Oldsmobile was (1955 or 1956). As you mentioned in your article, the DPD did observe it as a 1955 Oldsmobile. Let's assume that as fact. 

In your article you mention correctly, Ms. Hunter's account of the vehicle:

“By letter dated August 6, 1964, the President’s Commission advised Mrs. Gertrude Hunter, Irving, Texas, had furnished certain information alleging she had observed Lee Harvey Oswald in Irving, Texas, in November 1963, in an automobile she believed was a 1957 Ford, blue and white in color. Mrs. Hunter expressed the opinion this automobile was similar to an automobile owned by a Houston couple whom she identified as ‘Mr. and Mrs. Dominick’ [sic; Dominey] (…) Mrs. Dominey was questioned regarding the description of all automobiles owned by her family during 1963 (…) the only passenger automobile owned by the family during 1963 was a 1958 model Ford sedan. This automobile was purchased in 1958 and the color was originally turquoise and white.” (FBI, 8/14/64, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=492

My point here is that 1955 Oldsmobiles did not have fins as described by Mrs. Whitworth. They in fact had rounded tail ends. 1957 and 1958 Fords did have noticeable tail end fins. You can check me out on that to verify. 

 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

Valid point Greg. Here's my first observation (there are others). It all boils down to whether Oswald drove Michael Paine's 1955 Oldsmobile sedan to the Furniture Mart. 

As per your article: Mrs. Whitworth, Warren Commission testimony: “I would say it was a blue and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth—it was something with fins on it.” 

In checking on Google Images for 1955 Oldsmobiles it can look like it has fins from a certain angle (from the right front looking back on the right side). The taillights look raised a little. The description of the way the car was parked suggests it was angle parking in front of the store such that that could have been what gave Edith Whitworth that idea.

But let’s back up on a point prior to the question of what blue and white sedan old car the driver was driving. 

Do you accept that was Lee and Marina Oswald? If not, who do you think it was? 

You know the two women identified Marina in a later face to face, and the woman in the store did not talk and was sullen which sounds like Marina. You know the man looked like Oswald according to the two women, and said they were planning a move to an apartment, and that he had just had a baby girl born two weeks earlier, which matches Lee and Marina who had baby Rachel born Oct 20, 1963.

You know this Furniture Mart visit occurred just before a man gave a name of “Oswald” to a gunsmith down the street from where Edith Whitworth directed this man, who wrote down that name “Oswald” on a job ticket, the same man who minutes earlier had been in the Furniture Mart with the new baby girl and was last seen by the two women driving in the direction Mrs. Whitworth told the man to go to find that gunsmith.

You know the man and woman who looked like Lee and Marina and had a new baby also had a 2-3 yr old girl with them which matches Lee and Marina’s 2-yr old June.

You know the FBI tried very hard by checking birth records for a recent birth to find some other family in the area other than Lee and Marina, that could be another possibility for the identification of that family, without success. 

Do you suppose it was a freak-coincidence family matching Lee and Marina, that not even the FBI could identify from area county birth records?

What would be your main reason, if so—not the Warren Commission’s, but your main one—for rejecting that that was Lee and Marina?

The answer to the prior question of whether this was Lee and Marina will affect assessment of the identification of the car driven. 

[Steve Roe]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

In checking on Google Images for 1955 Oldsmobiles it can look like it has fins from a certain angle (from the right front looking back on the right side). The taillights look raised a little. The description of the way the car was parked suggests it was angle parking in front of the store such that that could have been what gave Edith Whitworth that idea.

But let’s back up on a point prior to the question of what blue and white sedan old car the driver was driving. 

Do you accept that was Lee and Marina Oswald? If not, who do you think it was? 

You know the two women identified Marina in a later face to face, and the woman in the store did not talk and was sullen which sounds like Marina. You know the man looked like Oswald according to the two women, and said they were planning a move to an apartment, and that he had just had a baby girl born two weeks earlier, which matches Lee and Marina who had baby Rachel born Oct 20, 1963.

You know this Furniture Mart visit occurred just before a man gave a name of “Oswald” to a gunsmith down the street from where Edith Whitworth directed this man, who wrote down that name “Oswald” on a job ticket, the same man who minutes earlier had been in the Furniture Mart with the new baby girl and was last seen by the two women driving in the direction Mrs. Whitworth told the man to go to find that gunsmith.

You know the man and woman who looked like Lee and Marina and had a new baby also had a 2-3 yr old girl with them which matches Lee and Marina’s 2-yr old June.

You know the FBI tried very hard by checking birth records for a recent birth to find some other family in the area other than Lee and Marina, that could be another possibility for the identification of that family, without success. 

Do you suppose it was a freak-coincidence family matching Lee and Marina, that not even the FBI could identify from area county birth records?

What would be your main reason, if so—not the Warren Commission’s, but your main one—for rejecting that that was Lee and Marina?

The answer to the prior question of whether this was Lee and Marina will affect assessment of the identification of the car driven. 

First of all, I enjoy this discussion and puzzle solving if you will. This story pique my interest because the manager of the Wyatt's Grocery Store in Plymouth Park Center in Irving, (same place Ruth Paine took Oswald for driving lessons), Edward Leon Humberson, was a distant relative of mine (now deceased). Wyatt's Grocery store was a Kroger food chain store, now gone. 

I agree there were similarities, apartment, one baby, one girl child. It looks like a case of mistaken identity to me as I find it hard to believe both of the ladies made the story up, but Mrs. Gertrude Hunter apparently had an over-active imagination.

I have no idea who that couple were, but it could have been anyone. Perhaps the man was getting ready for deer season, which was mid-November in 1963. As I looked through the record, I don't recall either lady mentioning the Oswald name or Lee/Marina while in the Furniture Mart. They were both going on sight only. 

So, was the FBI search on the Baby/Family Oswald name only? I know they did a search of Oswald's in the general area and couldn't find anyone who had been to Irving Sport Shop in the Oswald name.

The reason I reject this sighting of the Oswalds in the Furniture Mart is the inconsistencies put forth. As you know Ruth Paine flatly denied it happened for her own reasons. When the WC got Marina, Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter all together (July 24, 1964), here's one inconsistency. The time Mrs. Whitworth said they came into the store, 3:00 to 4:00 in the afternoon. That of course doesn't jive with Ruth Paine returning at 2:00 PM. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Here's another inconsistency, Mrs. Hunter said she recalled the day was on Wednesday or Thursday right before they discussed getting football tickets. That doesn't jive because November 11, 1963 (when Oswald was at the Paine home) was on a Monday. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) And here when Mrs. Hunter testified by herself (after 2:00 PM) Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Now let's discuss a pivotal point here, that football game both ladies mention and attended, Richland Hills (In Fort Worth) and Irving. They were very specific on that football game. That seems like a solid anchor to me on timing. When was that game? It was on November 8, 1963. Both teams were 4A in the same division. Source of that was Fort Worth Telegram, Friday November 8th. I have the clipping mentioning the game to be played that night. Mrs. Whitworth backs up the football game story here: Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) And she states it here on timing: Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Here's where it gets weird Greg, maybe you can comment on this. Mrs. Hunter declares she saw Marina several times before this Furniture Mart event. See the inconsistency? All of a sudden from recognizing her on TV, she comes up with this story. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org). Keep scrolling to see this story, just amazing. 

Here's another inconsistency, Mrs. Whitworth claimed "Lee" said they were living in an apartment. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) 

Back to your car question, Mrs. Hunter says it was a Ford Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

I strongly encourage you and others to read through the testimony of Whitworth, Hunter, Marina, Liebeler (WC), William McKenzie (Marina's lawyer) and Peter Gregory (interpreter for Marina). It all falls apart, like a hard-shell taco in your hand. As much as I would like to pile more evidence on top of Oswald's guilt, I can't buy into this at all. 

There's one way we can get to the bottom of this Greg, I can make some inquires to Ruth Paine what color Michael's 1955 car was. Both ladies were adamant about a white over blue two-tone vehicle. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by Steve Roe
Correct grammar

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

First of all, I enjoy this discussion and puzzle solving if you will. This story pique my interest because the manager of the Wyatt's Grocery Store in Plymouth Park Center in Irving, (same place Ruth Paine took Oswald for driving lessons), Edward Leon Humberson, was a distant relative of mine (now deceased). Wyatt's Grocery store was a Kroger food chain store, now gone. 

I agree there were similarities, apartment, one baby, one girl child. It looks like a case of mistaken identity to me as I find it hard to believe both of the ladies made the story up, but Mrs. Gertrude Hunter apparently had an over-active imagination.

I have no idea who that couple were, but it could have been anyone. Perhaps the man was getting ready for deer season, which was mid-November in 1963. As I looked through the record, I don't recall either lady mentioning the Oswald name or Lee/Marina while in the Furniture Mart. They were both going on sight only. 

So, was the FBI search on the Baby/Family Oswald name only? I know they did a search of Oswald's in the general area and couldn't find anyone who had been to Irving Sport Shop in the Oswald name.

The reason I reject this sighting of the Oswalds in the Furniture Mart is the inconsistencies put forth. As you know Ruth Paine flatly denied it happened for her own reasons. When the WC got Marina, Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter all together (July 24, 1964), here's one inconsistency. The time Mrs. Whitworth said they came into the store, 3:00 to 4:00 in the afternoon. That of course doesn't jive with Ruth Paine returning at 2:00 PM. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Here's another inconsistency, Mrs. Hunter said she recalled the day was on Wednesday or Thursday right before they discussed getting football tickets. That doesn't jive because November 11, 1963 (when Oswald was at the Paine home) was on a Monday. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) And here when Mrs. Hunter testified by herself (after 2:00 PM) Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Now let's discuss a pivotal point here, that football game both ladies mention and attended, Richland Hills (In Fort Worth) and Irving. They were very specific on that football game. That seems like a solid anchor to me on timing. When was that game? It was on November 8, 1963. Both teams were 4A in the same division. Source of that was Fort Worth Telegram, Friday November 8th. I have the clipping mentioning the game to be played that night. Mrs. Whitworth backs up the football game story here: Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) And she states it here on timing: Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

Here's where it gets weird Greg, maybe you can comment on this. Mrs. Hunter declares she saw Marina several times before this Furniture Mart event. See the inconsistency? All of a sudden from recognizing her on TV, she comes up with this story. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org). Keep scrolling to see this story, just amazing. 

Here's another inconsistency, Mrs. Whitworth claimed "Lee" said they were living in an apartment. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org) 

Back to your car question, Mrs. Hunter says it was a Ford Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XI (maryferrell.org)

I strongly encourage you and others to read through the testimony of Whitworth, Hunter, Marina, Liebeler (WC), William McKenzie (Marina's lawyer) and Peter Gregory (interpreter for Marina). It all falls apart, like a hard-shell taco in your hand. As much as I would like to pile more evidence on top of Oswald's guilt, I can't buy into this at all. 

There's one way we can get to the bottom of this Greg, I can make some inquires to Ruth Paine what color Michael's 1955 car was. Both ladies were adamant about a white over blue two-tone vehicle. 

I appreciate your engagement of this case too and you have an edge, your Dallas personal and family history. 

I believe the FBI sought to find any record of a birth of a baby girl within the ca. late October approximate time frame, part of a family which also had a ca. 2-3 year old girl, that could be another hypothetical possibility for the family in the Furniture Mart, but failed to come up with anything. Of course you can suppose the FBI missed something, or maybe there was an unreported home birth, or it was visitors from outside the area.

On what you regard as inconsistencies, I go into all of those thoroughly. The times and the date uncertainty I go into, how the two women came up with the estimates they did. In one piece of analysis I believe is original with me, I showed why it is certain that the Furniture Mart episode took place on a morning not later than about 10 or 10:30 am--not in the afternoon as Mrs. Hunter mistakenly thought and Edith Whitworth who didn't remember assumed from Mrs. Hunter. Why? Weather history data. The women remembered the little girl wearing a light coat. The women remembered the temperature was slightly cool, just cool enough that one wears "a light wrap". But weather records show every single day in that time frame was blazing hot by midday and afternoon, 80s, 90s--sweating temperature if one was not in air conditioning. Only in the early morning hours before ca. 10 or 10:30 am was it below 70 F, in the 60's F, consistent with "light wrap" temperature of the temperature remembered. And that time is the exact time consistent with the window of opportunity on Mon Nov 11 after Ruth Paine took her children next door for babysitting and left in her station wagon at about 8:45-9:00 am for a trip into Dallas that would take a certain number of hours.

The only reason Ruth Paine said she was sure Lee and Marina never went to a furniture store is because she knew they had not gone any time other than Monday morning Nov 11, and she believed Lee and Marina would have told her if they had gone Mon Nov 11, which Lee and Marina did not. They were there when she got home. Ruth had no knowledge of Lee ever driving a car on his own and it did not occur to Ruth that Lee and Marina would find a key to Michael's blue-and-white sedan parked in front of the house without telling her and drive that car somewhere. In other words Ruth had no actual basis for her knowledge on this point apart from trust, for where Lee and Marina were for the morning of Mon Nov 11.

And there is no need to ask Ruth Paine to learn the color of Michael Paine's 1955 Oldsmobile sedan, parked in front of Ruth Paine's house on Nov 11 after Ruth drove off in her green station wagon. That has already been answered. Michael's 1955 Olds was reported by the Dallas Police, from seeing it, as "blue and white"(https://whokilledjfk.net/ruth_paine.htm). 

If this man, woman, small girl and baby girl, positively identified as Lee by the women from television recognition and positively identified as Marina by the women from face-to-face followup contact--if it was a random mistaken identification of other persons who had a newborn baby girl at the same time Lee and Marina's baby was born--isn't that a bit of a coincidence that the doppelganger man who looks like Lee, woman who looks like Marina and doesn't talk English, 2-3 yr old girl and 2-3 week old baby girl, also arrived in the identical color of old car that matches the only possible car Lee and Marina could have had access that morning and the only possible means by which they could have got to the Furniture Mart that morning?

On Mrs. Hunter, I believe her that she had seen Marina and spoken to her on another occasion prior to the Furniture Mart. I discuss all that, and Marina's odd reactions. 

Fri Nov 8 as the date of the game indeed is an anchor point. This is a case where witnesses remembered another event but not exactly when it occurred other than approximately, so witnesses try to reconstruct by association to fix when in the past something else happened.

Edited March 14 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

Gertrude Hunter only went to visit Whitworth at the Furniture Mart on a Wednesday or Thursday, or if there was a charter bus for football, she would be there Friday morning.

Unless someone can show that the Furniture Mart was open for business on the public holiday (Mon 11th Nov), one must assume it was closed for the day.

[Greg Doudna]

8 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Gertrude Hunter only went to visit Whitworth at the Furniture Mart on a Wednesday or Thursday, or if there was a charter bus for football, she would be there Friday morning.

Unless someone can show that the Furniture Mart was open for business on the public holiday (Mon 11th Nov), one must assume it was closed for the day.

Disagree. Furniture stores, like car dealerships and other large-ticket retail outlets, holidays and long weekends are peak sales, should by default be assumed OPEN on a Veterans Day unless shown closed.

[Tony Krome]

13 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Disagree. Furniture stores, like car dealerships and other large-ticket retail outlets, holidays and long weekends are peak sales, should by default be assumed OPEN on a Veterans Day unless shown closed.

Then if both ladies were there on the Monday, the memory would be clear. It would have been very usual for Hunter to be there, being a Monday, plus it was Veterans Day.