How did the Dallas Police learn on Nov 22 that Oswald had driven a car on Nov 11?

[Greg Doudna]

In two studies I showed that Lee and Marina Oswald borrowed a car belonging to Michael Paine without Michael or Ruth's knowledge, parked in front of Ruth Paine's house, on the morning of Monday Nov 11, 1963, Veterans Day, when Ruth was gone much of that day. Marina was in the car giving directions to Lee driving, since Lee would not otherwise have known where to drive, to find a gunsmith to repair a damaged scope base mount on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. After removing the rifle from Ruth Paine's garage on the morning of Nov 11 and succeeding in getting the rifle repaired with apparent intent to prepare it for a sale or conveyance, there is a black hole of information on the whereabouts and custody of that rifle between Nov 11 and Nov 22--when it turned up on the 6th floor of the TSBD used in the assassination. There is no evidence the rifle was returned to the garage or was in the garage again after Nov 11. It could have been returned to the garage again but there is no evidence it was. 

The first of the two studies establishing this activity of Lee and Marina on Nov 11 involving Lee driving a car is "The Mystery of the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee and Marina Oswald and their children and its solution", https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/JFK-Furniture-Mart-mystery-105-pdf2.pdf.

The second is, "The Oswald rifle scope installation at the Irving Sport Shop of Monday, November 11, 1963", https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf.

The car Oswald drove, and was seen driving that day, was a blue-and-white 1955 Oldsmobile sedan. 

With that in mind, I believe there is a heretofore-overlooked reference on Nov 22, 1963, the evening of the day of the assassination, confirming that the Dallas Police had information from some witness who told of Lee driving that car on Nov 11. I believe this reference functions as corroboration of the correctness of the argument of my two studies on the existence of that driving excursion of Lee carrying Marina and their child and baby, on Nov 11.

From an Army 112th Intelligence Corps document citing information learned from Captain Doughty of the Dallas Police some time between 8 and 10 pm, Nov 22, 1963. 

"SUBJECT: Lee Harvey OSWALD ... SUBJECT's wife has signed a statement stating that subject owned the rifle which is believed to be the weapon that fired the shot that killed President Kennedy and wounded Gov Connally. (this info has not been released to the public) The rifle was manufactured in Italy in 1940 (6.5m). The police have interviewed a witness who has stated that a man fitting SUBJECT description in company of another man were observed by this witness on 20 Nov 63 in the immediate vicinity of the place where President Kennedy was killed. These men were observed sighting in a rifle at two silhouette targets. When the police arrived on the scene they realized they were in the direct line of sight so attempted to approach the car by circling around to their rear. When the two officers arrived at the spot where the men were last observed the men had disappeared. The witness further stated that he saw an old model car parked in the vicinity of where the two men were observed with the rifle. The description of the car fits the description of the car that SUBJECT was driving. Witness believes there was a man sitting in the car. (this info has not been released to the public) The slugs that killed President Kennedy and wounded Gov Connally have not been recovered ... SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Capt Dowdy ... TIME AND DATE INFORMATION RECEIVED BY REPORTING AGENCY: 2225 hrs, 22 Nov 63. COMMENT BY REPORTING AGENCY: Region II agents were cautioned that most of the above info was not public knowledge." (Kennedy Assassination Chronicles 7/4 [2001], 27, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4273#relPageId=28)

Comment: this information apparently derives from that early stage following the assassination before it was realized Oswald had no car and supposedly never drove on his own. The phrase "fits the description of the car that SUBJECT was driving" is to be interpreted as echoing what Capt. Doughty told them, an interpretation of the police (not of the unnamed witness of the silhouettes). This witness (unnamed) saw a certain "old model car" which Captain Doughty told these Army 112th Intelligence Corps persons "fits the description of the car that SUBJECT was driving", that is, Doughty was saying what this witness saw was a car which was in general agreement with what police had as a description of a car that Oswald had been seen or was known to drive.

Nothing further is heard of this car identification again. But there is little other way to read this than that a report had come in to the Dallas Police, some time after Oswald's arrest and identification by name around 2 pm, but no later than 8-10 pm that day, Nov 22--some time in those few hours time frame--the Dallas Police had information that Oswald drove a car, and they had a description of what that car was like. It was "an old model car". That's all that this report says. 

The 1955 Olds that Oswald drove on Mon Nov 11 was "an old model". That matches. There is no other date Oswald can be known to have driven a car on his own in the greater Dallas area than this one time on Nov 11 (apart from his driving lessons with Ruth Paine, and a report that he test-drove a new car at a car dealership with a salesman in the passenger's seat). 

Therefore I interpret this as the Dallas Police having learned on Nov 22 of Oswald driving the car he did on Nov 11, 1963. Someone--we don't know who--was a source of information to the Dallas Police on that point, on Nov 22. How would the Dallas Police have learned that on Nov 22?

Note also that the location of this sighting of the two men sighting-in a rifle did not take place, as one might think from reading the above, very near the TSBD; it did not, according to an allusion to this same incident in an FBI report of Nov 27, 1963, which says it occurred on Continental Street which is on the other side of a freeway to the north of the TSBD, not immediately adjacent or adjoining the TSBD: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95672#relPageId=90. 

And both the persons and the car of the Wed eve Nov 20 sighting are not related to Oswald or to "the car that [Oswald] was driving" (on Nov 11). This was a sighting of something maybe a quarter of a mile away, in the midst of hunting season so not obviously sinister, and none of the persons were Oswald, the car was not the car Oswald had driven, and there is no reason to suppose that incident with the silhouettes had anything to do with anything with the assassination. (The FBI inability to get confirmation of the police check on it on Wed night Nov 20 as reported, could have been caused by a mistake in the date by one day in the witness's report.) But none of this is material to the point here, which is not the car of Nov 20, but rather DPD knowledge of the car Oswald drove on Nov 11--and how the DPD might have obtained that knowledge when they did.

And a possible second, independent allusion to Oswald and a car also at the Dallas Police station on Nov 22

I refer to the story of deputy sheriff Roger Craig who told of phoning Capt. Fritz, who had Oswald in his office questioning him, and then Craig went over and believed he identified Oswald as the man Craig had seen run to and get into a light-colored Rambler station wagon which Craig believed was Ruth Paine's station wagon (it was not). Craig was mistaken on both counts, on the identification of the man, and of the station wagon. But that is not the important point here, which is Roger Craig's account of a curious exchange, in which he says he heard Capt. Fritz ask Oswald (I am paraphrasing from memory), "What about this? This man saw you in that car/station wagon." And Oswald replies--very strangely and seemingly nonsensically--"that's Ruth Paine's car--keep her out of this!" And something about Oswald saying to Fritz, "I told you that!" Also something about Oswald looking dejected and saying "everyone will know who I am now", which Craig interpreted as if Oswald was regretting his cover (or something) would be blown or lost.

Everyone has read this as if Oswald believed he was answering a question concerning how he left the TSBD. 

But that makes no sense because there was no Ruth Paine car in front of the TSBD--there just wasn't--and there is no rational reason why Oswald would have thought so. Therefore, I don't think that is the question Oswald thought he was answering. And remember this is all hearsay from Roger Craig who could not figure what Oswald was meaning either, just reporting or paraphrasing what he remembered was said as best he could.

Before I saw the 112th Army Corps report explicitly referring to the Dallas Police having information and a description of a car driven by Oswald, I had already surmised that this Roger Craig exchange might actually reflect--even if neither Roger Craig nor later readers recognized it--Oswald referring to something to do with the car he drove on Nov 11. 

I surmised that that is what Fritz had been discussing with Oswald in the immediate seconds before Roger Craig poked his head in the door at Fritz's invitation and heard what he did. I believe Oswald interpreted the question or statement of Fritz to be as if Fritz was saying, "Mr. Oswald, this man saw you driving that car that another witness told us about". And Oswald, thinking the reference is Nov 11 when he was driving, does not want to have Ruth Paine involved in any trouble (Ruth Paine did not even know Oswald had driven the car that day--still does not know it to the present day--was not convinced by my papers explaining it 🙂 ). 

Technically the car Lee drove on Nov 11, the '55 Olds, was not Ruth's but registered to Michael Paine, but it was always parked at Ruth's place indefinitely so it would be easy for Oswald to refer to it to Fritz as "that's Ruth Paine's car".

Without the interpretation I have given--that Oswald thought he was answering something to do with Nov 11, not Nov 22, in his "that's Ruth Paine's car" answer--the answer of Oswald makes no sense. Ruth Paine, and her car (and Michael Paine's '55 Olds) were all in Irving all day, nothing to do with being in front of the TSBD nor would Oswald think so. But what makes this sensible is linking it backward to Nov 11 and also forward a few hours later to the Capt. Doughty reference to police knowledge of a car that Oswald drove--an "old" model car ... the car Oswald drove on Nov 11.

How did Fritz and Doughty of the Dallas Police learn on Nov 22 of Oswald driving a car in Irving on Nov 11?

Once I established from the above items that the Dallas Police had some source of information regarding Oswald driving on Nov 11, I wondered how that could have happened. There is no certainty here but I will run down my thinking. It will not have been Marina because Marina wasn't telling anything that first day, there is no record she did, and she consistently denied it later when asked if she was where Oswald drove her on Nov 11. So Marina is out. So are Ruth or Michael Paine, who did not know Lee and Marina had borrowed the car without permission. At the Furniture Mart where two women had seen Oswald arrive and leave driving Michael Paine's blue-and-white 1955 Olds, it will not have been Gertrude Hunter because she said she did not see a picture of Oswald for several days at which point she recognized him. And it will not have been store owner Edith Whitworth because she said she did recognize Oswald quickly from the news as having been in her store but did not phone it in to the police or FBI, told no one except her husband. And it will not have been Dial Ryder at the Irving Sport Shop who worked on Oswald's rifle making the repair, because Ryder hardly remembered anything and was inside the shop and specifically denied when asked if he had seen a car or how Oswald had arrived, he did not know. 

Was it volunteered by Oswald himself? (That could possibly relate to what Roger Craig heard Oswald say to Fritz, "I told you I did".) If he did, the point would not be because the car was important, but it would have to be some unreported part of the 90% of Oswald's 12 hours of interrogation time which is unknown because the reported questions and answers only account for about 10% of the total time of Oswald's interrogation according to one published estimate. Oswald's reported interrogation questions and answers are woefully inadequate and incomplete, leaving basic things unasked and not followed up on, probably not because Fritz (or whoever) never asked, but more likely because not everything was reported. 

And consider this fascinating article, "Oswald: Why I think he talked to Will Fritz", by Alaric Rosman (Dealey Plaza Echo, 2012), https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146599#relPageId=22 . 

Or maybe Oswald talked to Hosty after Hosty was officially ordered not to be part of the DPD interrogation any further with Fritz or to tell the DPD anything--but Hosty still was around in the offices there for several more hours... lots of opportunity for Hosty and Oswald to have some off-the-record private talk if there was a need for it ... Fritz claimed he was there all the time except for the times he stepped out ...  

Or maybe Oswald talked to ATTU (Alcohol Tobacco Tax Unit; ATF today) agent Ellsworth who is not known in any Oswald interrogation accounts but who by his account a few years later to Dick Russell told of having gone over there at Fritz's request to talk to Oswald about the rifle, or something. That occurred Friday afternoon or evening too, Nov 22. For all we know Ellsworth could have just been there and left just before Roger Craig showed up. What was said between Oswald and Ellsworth? No one knows.

Or maybe he talked to Fritz, as Alaric Rosman supposed. But Rosman gives some argument that Oswald did talk to someone about what was really going on, along with the rest of what Oswald is reported to have said and answered, including some things which were not only untrue but had to have been known by Oswald could be found quickly to be untrue. Rosman argues for the possibility that Oswald was assured he would be released shortly, but asked to maintain his cover just a little longer until he was released. Rosman focuses on the press conference late Friday night and Oswald's look of utter desolation upon being informed by reporters that he was being charged with the President's death. Rosman interprets that as Oswald in despair because he did not think that was going to happen, because he had been told, or anticipated, a promised intervention which would get him released.  

It seems the source of information that Oswald drove a car on Nov 11 in Irving would have to come from either Oswald himself, or from someone who had met or knew of Oswald's driving on Nov 11, such as a recipient of the rifle which Oswald was spending money to have repaired so he could convey it.

The existence and identity of a recipient of the rifle on Nov 11 is pure speculation, but the rifle had to go somewhere after Oswald paid $6.00 at the Irving Sport Shop and got it back, scope base and scope repaired and installed, rifle sighted-in by bore sighting. Oswald was not seen taking it with him in Buell Frazier's car the next morning, Nov 12, riding in to work. Either Oswald on Nov 11 returned it to the garage, put it in a storage locker at a bus station, or met someone that same day for a sale or conveyance of the rifle. 

Speculation on how the rifle got from Point A to Point B

I'm going to suggest just as a conjecture that what happened next with the rifle, after Oswald had it repaired on the morning of Nov 11, was the last of the three possibilities just named, and in thinking over who that person, if so, might possibly have been, I'm going to take a wild guess and consider John Thomas Masen.

Masen was a gun dealer, a dealer in Mannlicher-Carcano rifles. So he was someone knowledgeable about Mannlicher-Carcanos, one of the few people in Dallas in the business of buying and selling such, I believe one of the only two dealers in ammo for Mannlicher-Carcanos in Dallas. And according to Ellsworth, it was Masen, not Oswald, who the people at the Sports Drome rifle range thought was Oswald--that Sports Drome shooter who was a crack shot and looked like Oswald, easy to mistake for Oswald by looking at him (said Ellsworth, and supported from the only known photo of him, his high school photo). Ellsworth told Dick Russell that Masen had confirmed that it was he at the Sports Drome, to Ellsworth. Oswald never practiced with that rifle after Nov 11 that he spent money to have repaired on Nov 11. He repaired it on Nov 11 in order to sell it. 

Masen was under surveillance by Ellsworth working undercover, and Ellsworth said he was in Fritz's office talking to Oswald somewhere in there late Friday afternoon or early evening, perhaps just before the Roger Craig Fritz/Oswald exchange that Craig heard. 

Masen, although there is no reason to suppose he was involved in the assassination himself, claimed he was in touch with and doing gun-running and weapons acquisition on request, to order, for anti-Castro Cubans who were dead set on invading Cuba and also killing Kennedy, i.e. Masen could have been in contact with the assassins of Kennedy, and he certainly was obtaining weapons on order on request from killer types with motivation and wish to kill Kennedy.

Masen could have been the means by which Oswald's rifle, removed from Ruth Paine's garage on the morning of Nov 11 (fact), ended up eleven days later in the TSBD used in the assassination on Nov 22 (fact). 

And according to disputed reports, Masen was in the custody of the Dallas Police on Fri Nov 22. He was certainly in custody on Wed Nov 20 because Ellsworth arrested him then; released Thu by a lawyer; but there is documentation referring to an arrest of Masen on Fri Nov 22. Either that is a second arrest or some mistaken reference to a one and only first arrest of Nov 20, I don't know which. If Elrod's "Oswald" of La Fontaines' fame was actually Masen who looked like Oswald, then Masen was in jail at the Dallas Police station on Nov 22.

So Masen could possibly be another conceivable source, other than Oswald, for the Dallas Police's information concerning a car driven by Oswald on Nov 11, since he may have been at the police station and questioned on Nov 22, if Masen was the mysterious Y party conjectured to be the recipient of a rifle Oswald had repaired on Nov 11 in order to convey in what may have been a solicited sale of his rifle (or something along that line).

Whatever the mechanism, Doughty and Fritz of the Dallas Police knew, on Nov 22, that Oswald had driven a car, which was on Nov 11. The only mystery is how they knew that, what was the source of that information on Nov 22. 

Edited March 9 by Greg Doudna

[Robert Burrows]

"...a man fitting SUBJECT description in company of another man were observed by this witness on 20 Nov 63 in the immediate vicinity of the place where President Kennedy was killed. These men were observed sighting in a rifle at two silhouette targets. When the police arrived on the scene they realized they were in the direct line of sight so attempted to approach the car by circling around to their rear. When the two officers arrived at the spot where the men were last observed the men had disappeared."

From an Army 112th Intelligence Corps document: prima facie evidence of a conspiracy.

Edited March 7 by Robert Burrows

[Greg Doudna]

3 minutes ago, Robert Burrows said:

"...a man fitting SUBJECT description in company of another man were observed by this witness on 20 Nov 63 in the immediate vicinity of the place where President Kennedy was killed. These men were observed sighting in a rifle at two silhouette targets. When the police arrived on the scene they realized they were in the direct line of sight so attempted to approach the car by circling around to their rear. When the two officers arrived at the spot where the men were last observed the men had disappeared."

From an Army 112th Intelligence Corps document: Prima facie evidence of a conspiracy.

I don't think so Robert. This sighting was a number of blocks away from Dealey Plaza on Continental Street to the north, and assuming the suspected Oswald identification was mistaken, as it probably was like so many others (why would he be on Continental Street?), there is nothing there to connect it to the assassination. Any real assassins of course would sight in rifles but there is no good reason to assume several blocks away to the north of Dealey Plaza is where that would be done.

[Robert Burrows]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don't think so Robert. This sighting was a number of blocks away from Dealey Plaza on Continental Street to the north, and assuming the suspected Oswald identification was mistaken, as it probably was like so many others (why would he be on Continental Street?), there is nothing there to connect it to the assassination. Any real assassins of course would sight in rifles but there is no good reason to assume several blocks away to the north of Dealey Plaza is where that would be done.

That may be true, but the document claims that it was witnessed 

"...in the immediate vicinity of the place where President Kennedy was killed."

[Greg Doudna]

Maybe the witness who reported seeing someone who looked like Oswald in the Nov 20 “silhouettes” sighting was a witness of the Nov 20 arrest of Masen by ATTU Ellsworth and fellow ATTU agents? That would agree with the date (Nov 20); could account for the DPD unable to find records or patrol officers who remembered it if it was really ATTU agents not DPD (ATTU agents had legal authority to make arrests); and it involved someone who looked like Oswald (Masen).

Ellsworth and one other ATTU agent did an undercover sting on Masen, they pretending to be what Masen thought were corrupt Irving police officers, in the weeks running up to the Nov 20 arrest of Masen by ATTU.

Does the “Irving” connection of the ATTU undercover sting on Masen make more plausible that Masen (who did not live or work near Irving) could have been in Irving where Oswald on Nov 11 was driving with a freshly repaired and sighted Mannlicher-Carcano in the car prepped for a sale to somebody—such as, say, a gun dealer such as Masen?

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Maybe the witness who reported seeing someone who looked like Oswald in the Nov 20 “silhouettes” sighting was a witness of the Nov 20 arrest of Masen by ATTU Ellsworth and fellow ATTU agents? That would agree with the date (Nov 20); could account for the DPD unable to find records or patrol officers who remembered it if it was really ATTU agents not DPD (ATTU agents had legal authority to make arrests); and it involved someone who looked like Oswald (Masen).

Ellsworth and one other ATTU agent did an undercover sting on Masen, they pretending to be what Masen thought were corrupt Irving police officers, in the weeks running up to the Nov 20 arrest of Masen by ATTU.

Does the “Irving” connection of the ATTU undercover sting on Masen make more plausible that Masen (who did not live or work near Irving) could have been in Irving where Oswald on Nov 11 was driving with a freshly repaired and sighted Mannlicher-Carcano in the car prepped for a sale to somebody—such as, say, a gun dealer such as Masen?

Greg - are you certain it was Ellsworth who arrested Masen?

[Steve Thomas]

Greg,

I appreciate the hard work you put into this. Your citation of the 112th Spot Report raised several questions in my mind.

1. Why was this information about the "Subject" attributed to a Captain "Dowdy"? Obviously, the person at the 112th who was relaying this information was not familiar with the Dallas Police personnel. If it indeed come from Captain Doughty of the Crime Search Section, why him, and not somebody in Special Services?

2. Did you catch the date at the top of the Spot Report? Also, look closely at the date of the "sighting" of the two guys sighting a rifle. Does the 63 date look odd?

3. I need to look at my notes of the roster of 112th Region II. Was there a Lieutenant Green on that Roster?

4. The timing on this Spot Report is suspiciously close in time with the information supposedly provided by Detective Stringfellow of Special Services to the effect that 5'10", 165 lb. Harvey Lee Oswald had been arrested.

5. In his article on the 112th, Larry Hancock asked why, either a) the Dallas Police were deliberately feeding the 112th false information, or b) the 112th was deliberately garbling the information the were gett8ng from the DPD.

Steve Thomas

 

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Greg - are you certain it was Ellsworth who arrested Masen?

Not sure, cannot find the answer to that question.

"On 2/11/64, Frank Ellsworth, ATTU, Dallas, Texas, advised SA Richard L. Wiehl that subsequent to the arrest of John Thomas Masen on 11/20/63 for violation of the Federal Firearms Act, Masen was taken to the ATTU offices for questioning. During this questioning it was determined that Masen was of strong 'right-wing' beliefs and inclinations. Masen stated that there was in the Dallas area a small 'elite group' of patriots who were arming for the defense of the country inasmuch as the Government was being infiltrated by Communists ..." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=136322#relPageId=21)

Here is an article with two high school pictures of Masen from 1958: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16255#relPageId=28.

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Greg,

I appreciate the hard work you put into this. Your citation of the 112th Spot Report raised several questions in my mind.

1. Why was this information about the "Subject" attributed to a Captain "Dowdy"? Obviously, the person at the 112th who was relaying this information was not familiar with the Dallas Police personnel. If it indeed come from Captain Doughty of the Crime Search Section, why him, and not somebody in Special Services?

2. Did you catch the date at the top of the Spot Report? Also, look closely at the date of the "sighting" of the two guys sighting a rifle. Does the 63 date look odd?

3. I need to look at my notes of the roster of 112th Region II. Was there a Lieutenant Green on that Roster?

4. The timing on this Spot Report is suspiciously close in time with the information supposedly provided by Detective Stringfellow of Special Services to the effect that 5'10", 165 lb. Harvey Lee Oswald had been arrested.

5. In his article on the 112th, Larry Hancock asked why, either a) the Dallas Police were deliberately feeding the 112th false information, or b) the 112th was deliberately garbling the information the were gett8ng from the DPD.

Steve Thomas

I had not noticed that Nov 22, 1961 date instead of 1963 as it should read. Did typists for the 112th not proofread their work after typing? Good question on why Captain Doughty, and your other comments.

[Steve Thomas]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I had not noticed that Nov 22, 1961 date instead of 1963 as it should read. Did typists for the 112th not proofread their work after typing? Good question on why Captain Doughty, and your other comments.

Greg,

I think I got one of my questions answered.

There was a First Lieutenant Green posted to Dallas.

It looks like he was transferred to Fort Wolters in August, 1964.

Steve Thomas

[Jamey Flanagan]

On 3/7/2024 at 3:09 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Gary Mack: "The wife of one of [Dallas Police Captain Will] Fritz's best friends recently told researchers that Fritz had secretly recorded his Oswald interrogations [Nov 22-24, 1963]. Only one other DPD employee even knew about the recording equipment, which was in a small room or closet adjoining Fritz' office. The tapes are supposedly safe. She added that Fritz was afraid for the safety of his family and relatives, and that Oswald had admitted being a member of the intelligence community. There is no known reason to doubt the credibility of the woman or her husband."

There are some very interesting details in this post, but for me the above was the most interesting! I had never heard that before. How explosive would those tapes be if they ever surfaced?

Edited March 8 by Jamey Flanagan
Spelling

[Greg Doudna]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:52 AM, Jamey Flanagan said:

There are some very interesting details in this post, but for me the above was the most interesting! I had never heard that before. How explosive would those tapes be if they ever surfaced?

Thanks Jamey for your comment, but I am taking that out of my piece; here is why. For sure it would be explosive if it surfaced or (it must be said) if it existed. After a flurry of leaks and promised imminent disclosure of such Fritz tapes those decades ago so far as I can see everything went dark/silent about that story ever since. First question: can it be verified that a wife of a DPD friend of Fritz told any researcher what Gary Mack reported? Mack refers to researchers plural who heard what Mack reports, but to my knowledge neither the wife’s name, the name of the Fritz friend, or the name of any researcher who personally heard the wife say that, is known. (Mack does not seem to say explicitly that he did.) What became of that story? Why didn’t the researchers who allegedly heard the wife firsthand tell further or name the names? Or was it a plant of a rabbit hole that was nothing, a hoax story? Unless some verification comes forward that a wife of a friend of Fritz said any such thing, I don't think this is usable or citeable. 

Edited March 9 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:00 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Greg,

I think I got one of my questions answered.

There was a First Lieutenant Green posted to Dallas.

It looks like he was transferred to Fort Wolters in August, 1964.

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve for finding that. It would be interesting to know how that information was communicated from Doughty to Lt. Green, whether Green of the 112th was in the Dallas Police station or whether it was via a phone call (if so who initiated the call?), etc.

Also I have been intrigued that the "112th Intelligence Corps Group"'s Dallas office was located in the Rio Grande Building and that, whether by coincidence or not, Oswald upon leaving the TSBD on Nov 22 walked directly to the location of the Rio Grande Building, before getting on a bus in the vicinity there. The timeline of Oswald's movements is so constrained there is hardly time for him to have gone into the building to try unsuccessfully to find someone known to him there, but still, it seems an odd coincidence that that is where he walked first thing before getting on the bus.

And there is the whole deal with Powell of the 112th, taking all those valuable photos, first of JFK's arrival at Love Field, then of the TSBD windows at the time of the shots in Dealey Plaza, supposedly on a day off not on work time (and so his superiors legitimately have no idea what he was up to on his own time) and Powell's full photo set was never disclosed nor known today.

Still, so many of these possible leads (such as Powell) just don't seem to go anywhere substantial, either because too much information is missing or because there was nothing actually there, whichever it is.  

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Thanks Steve for finding that. It would be interesting to know how that information was communicated from Doughty to Lt. Green, whether Green of the 112th was in the Dallas Police station or whether it was via a phone call (if so who initiated the call?), etc.

Also I have been intrigued that the "112th Intelligence Corps Group"'s Dallas office was located in the Rio Grande Building and that, whether by coincidence or not, Oswald upon leaving the TSBD on Nov 22 walked directly to the location of the Rio Grande Building, before getting on a bus in the vicinity there. The timeline of Oswald's movements is so constrained there is hardly time for him to have gone into the building to try unsuccessfully to find someone known to him there, but still, it seems an odd coincidence that that is where he walked first thing before getting on the bus.

Greg,

I don't know how Green got his info from the DPD. He doesn't say.

I personally think it is highly significant that Oswald got picked up by a bus in front of the Rio Grande Building. To me, that's the only logical reason he headed east when he left the TSBD, but my view is not shared by very many other people.

He may have been intercepted out in the street by somebody who told him to make himself scarce and make his way to some pre-arranged pick-up point.

Do a Forum search for The Rio Grande Building.

Steve Thomas

Edited March 9 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Roe]

Greg,

You place a lot of faith on Dial Duwayne Ryder's story. If you read through all the FBI reports, his WC testimony and the most damning the Hunter Schmidt testimony, you will find mega conflicting accounts. 

Even a Dallas FBI agent doubted it FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 160 (maryferrell.org)

Dallas Times Herald reporter Hunter Schmidt broke the story, after finally locating Ryder in Irving and calling him on the phone. Ryder then denied it. That's when Ryder began getting really fuzzy on details.  Liebler tried to get to the bottom on it, because one of them was obviously lying. Would a Times Herald reporter just make this story up out of the blue? Of course not.

I know Greener tried to paint Ryder in a good light, but the kid obviously got caught.