Possible New Identification of 2 Witnesses and Almost a Third One

[Cliff Varnell]

From HSCA report:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

II. PRESENCE OF POSSIBLE GUNMAN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL

(24) The committee also examined information about the presence of a man near the concrete structure on the grassy knoll near the area where some witnesses said they believed gunfire had originated.

(25) The photographic evidence panel examined photographs make by Phillip Willis of the area of the grassy knoll and concluded that a photograph taken by Willis did show a person standing behind the concrete wall on the knoll.(72) The panel determined that photograph was taken at approximately frame 202 of the Zapruder film, which was after President Kennedy received the neck wound but before the fatal head shot.(73) According to the results of the panel's photographic enhancement and analysis, the figure in the Willis photograph was consistent with that of an adult approximately 5 feet 6 inches to 6 feet in height (74) and wearing dark clothing.(75) The panel also noted that in another photograph by Willis, which was taken after the Presidential limousine had left Dealey Plaza, the figure standing behind the concrete wall had disappeared.(76) The panel concluded that movement by the object was consistent with the
presence of a human being.(77)

(26) The photographic evidence panel also noted that in the first Willis Photograph, which shows the person standing behind the concrete wall, there is visible, near the region of the hands of the person at the wall, "a very distinct straight-line feature," which extends from lower right to upper right.(78) Nevertheless, because of the blur of the object in the photograph, the panel was not able to determine the actual length of the object and could not conclude whether it was or was not a weapon.(79)

(27) The committee interviewed Willis' daughter, Rose Mary Willis, on November 8, 1978, at her home in Dallas. Ms. Willis stated that she was present with her father and a sister in the area of the grass section of the plaza at the time of the Presidential motorcade on November 22,1963.(80)  Ms. Willis explained that as the President's car approached, she ran alongside almost to the triple underpass. (81) 

(28)  Ms. Willis stated that during that time, she noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous."(82)  One was a man near the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening or closing the umbrella than dropping to the ground liked everyone else at the time of the shots.(83)  The other was a person who was standing just behind the concrete wall near the triple underpass.(84) That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."(85) Ms. Willis further described the location of this person as the corner section of the white concrete wall between the area of photographer Abraham Zapruder's right side and the top of the concrete stairway leading up to the center of the grassy knoll.(86)

 

Edited March 16 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

11 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I didn't say he was.  I correctly placed him behind the concrete wall in front of the picket fence.

BDM is seen only in Betzner 3 and Willis 5.

Behind the wall.  The soda was found in front of the wall, yes?

She dropped the bottle while she was sitting and then disappeared in an instant?

Factually incorrect.  BDM was behind the concrete wall.

Not all weapons are rifles.  All eyes were on the motorcade.  

BDM would have been in clear view of Zaptuder and Sitzman, and for the three men on the steps should they have looked in that direction after hearing a sound. Are you really pushing that they had a sniper out in public, who would have to run across 30 feet or more to get out of sight? And, if so, why would they have done that? The best angles for a sniper were from behind. Being that close while the limo was passing would make the tracking of their target much much harder, not easier. 

P.S. the HSCA panel looked into BDM at the urging of one of its members, Robert Groden, right? As I recall, Groden is among those who told me this issue had been resolved, as it was Faye Chism's brother's girlfriend, or wife, I don't remember. In any event, feel free to track down Groden and see if  he still believes "BDM" was part of the assassination team. I suspect he does not. But it's Groden. So who knows? 

Edited March 16 by Pat Speer

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

BDM would have been in clear view of Zaptuder and Sitzman, and for the three men on the steps should they have looked in that direction after hearing a sound. Are you really pushing that they had a sniper out in public, who would have to run across 30 feet or more to get out of sight?

He could have ducked down a few feet and been out of sight.  Rosemary Willis looked in that direction after hearing a sound and stated this "conspicuous"" person "disappeared in an instant".

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

And, if so, why would they have done that? The best angles for a sniper were from behind. Being that close while the limo was passing would make the tracking of their target much much harder, not easier. 

And you base this claim on your many years as a sniper?  Since the wound in his throat was not consistent with a conventional firearm, an unconventional weapon may have required the shooter to fire close in with the target moving toward them.

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

P.S. the HSCA panel looked into BDM at the urging of one of its members, Robert Groden, right?

Who cares?  They detected a "very distinct straight-line feature" in "the region of the hands."  Rosemary Wilis noted his rapid disappearance.  These points of information are inconsistent with your thinking on the matter.

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

 

As I recall, Groden is among those who told me this issue had been resolved, as it was Faye Chism's brother's girlfriend, or wife, I don't remember. In any event, feel free to track down Groden and see if  he still believes "BDM" was part of the assassination team. I suspect he does not. But it's Groden. So who knows? 

I care less and less about the opinions of "JFK researchers" as time goes by...

[Cliff Varnell]

Discovery:


Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS;
ZAPRUDER Film Documented .2nd. Head Snap:
West, Ultrafast, 1and Directly Towards
the Grassy Knoll

https://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

by Donald Roberdeau, 2001

On November 21, 2001, I publicly provided the following discovery with respect to Rosemary Willis's Zapruder film documented, clearly seen, ultrafast, second head snap.

Whatever it was that caused the ten-years-old girl's first slowing then stopping and measurably slower head turn reaction from Zapruder film frame # 190 to 213, her first reaction is not the most important Zapruder film documented reaction with respect to Dealey Plaza assassination very close witness, Rosemary Willis.

The most important documented reaction, by far, with respect to Rosemary is what caused and attracted her second Zapruder film documented reaction, that was a much, much faster, most likely impulsive reaction, that Rosemary displayed in an extremely rapid westward head snap that we can see with her head snap concluded with her very suddenly facing a line of sight aligned directly towards Mr. Abraham Zapruder and the grassy knoll picket fence corner location.

In 2001 while researching individual Zapruder film frames between Z-190 and 223, a second extremely fast, Rosemary Willis head snap became evident to me that had gone completely un-noticed and government investigations un-reported by dedicated researchers and "official" investigators since the assassination 38 years prior.

Please examine the ellipse circled Rosemary Willis in the key individual Zapruder frame numbers 214 through 223 between-the-sprocket-holes area, provided for you in the following frames, or, viewable even larger in another followup window, linked here....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location where Rosemary stated to U.S. government assassination investigators that she watched a person who had been located behind a "wall," suddenly and quickly disappear from her view right after she heard a gunshot audible muzzle blast, or, mechanically suppressed-fired "silenced" bullet bow shock wave [1]....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = where several photographic evidences captured a person positioned in that same specific location in one instant, but, who quickly moved away (or escaped) and disappeared from that very same specific grassy knoll location within seconds (rapidly hiding into a closeby car trunk, or, a closeby station wagon's rear pre-hollowed-out and large hatch-covered compartment?) after the last of the assassins volley’s of shots when President Kennedy's head exploded....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = where many attack witnesses stated that they heard, at least, one shot fired from....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = from where attack witnesses maintained that they also observed gun smoke lingering close to....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = from where attack witnesses smelled gun smoke close to....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = where, even though witnesses were standing much, much closer to the Depository and even though witnesses were at least 61’ below the Warren Commission-apologists, supposed, “lone-nut” “snipers lair” window....many witnesses, many gunfire experienced witnesses, and many law enforcement professionals experienced in gunfire, also first chose to run towards the grassy knoll....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = where a U. S. Secret Service Agent documented in writing on 11-22-63 that, instead of from the Depository located several hundred feet to his left and front while filming, Mr. Zapruder stated that a shot did originate from behind Mr. Zapruder [2]........

This is the exact same grassy knoll and parking lot locations = where prior to the assassination and immediately afterward, multiple still-unknown “agents” were encountered by several witnesses, even though all documented assignment location records for all U.S. government and Dallas local law enforcement persons thoroughly document that not even one real “agent” nor police officer was ever pre-JFK-elimination stationed inside Dealey Plaza, nor stationed in nor atop any of its surrounding buildings....

This is the exact same grassy knoll picket fence corner location = where the second, and most recent, Kennedy assassination government investigation scientifically determined to more than a 95% probability that a shot was fired from [3]........


Rosemary’s second head snap reaction directly towards the grassy knoll picket fence location at and after Zapruder film frame Z-214 is an important, very primary and very key consideration that carries infinitely more potent and stronger weight than her, measurably, much slower and leisurely first reaction seen earlier from frames Z-190 to 213.

Edited March 16 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

He could have ducked down a few feet and been out of sight.  Rosemary Willis looked in that direction after hearing a sound and stated this "conspicuous"" person "disappeared in an instant".

And you base this claim on your many years as a sniper?  Since the wound in his throat was not consistent with a conventional firearm, an unconventional weapon may have required the shooter to fire close in with the target moving toward them.

Who cares?  They detected a "very distinct straight-line feature" in "the region of the hands."  Rosemary Wilis noted his rapid disappearance.  These points of information are inconsistent with your thinking on the matter.

I care less and less about the opinions of "JFK researchers" as time goes by...

It's not "opinions, Cliff. You have cited two of the three researchers who told me about Chism's brother and his girlfriend as support for your fantastical idea the BDM was a shooter, when I feel certain these men don't believe this. They told me this after talking to Faye Chism. I think the three men who told me this were Groden. Brownlow and Roberdeau. But I could be mistaken. Maybe it was only two of the three. But if Groden did not tell me this, then I feel fairly certain he does not believe BDM was a shooter, because I have stood by him in his booth and talked to tourists with him, and he has always pointed out the picket fence as the likely location for a shooter. If you can get him to claim otherwise, and that BDM was a shooter, well, I'd be surprised. But not shocked. 

Edited March 16 by Pat Speer

[Cliff Varnell]

15 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It's not "opinions, Cliff. You have cited two of the three researchers who told me about Chism's brother and his girlfriend as support for your fantastical idea the BDM was a shooter, when I feel certain these men don't believe this. They told me this after talking to Faye Chism. I think the three men who told me this were Groden. Brownlow and Roberdeau. But I could be mistaken.

Until you can cite Roberdeau and Groden you're just talking smack.

15 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Maybe it was only two of the three.

Maybe you should just stick to the facts.

15 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

But if Groden did not tell me this, then I feel fairly certain he does not believe BDM was a shooter, because I have stood by him in his booth and talked to tourists with him, and he has always pointed out the picket fence as the likely location for a shooter. If you can get him to claim otherwise, and that BDM was a shooter, well, I'd be surprised. But not shocked. 

Burden of proof is on you.  Did Groden write the HSCA photo-analysis?  Did Don Roberdeau disavow his 2001 discovery?  When you get the answers to those questions get back to us -- otherwise spare us your butt-hurt Pet Theories.

[Pat Speer]

53 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Until you can cite Roberdeau and Groden you're just talking smack.

Maybe you should just stick to the facts.

Burden of proof is on you.  Did Groden write the HSCA photo-analysis?  Did Don Roberdeau disavow his 2001 discovery?  When you get the answers to those questions get back to us -- otherwise spare us your butt-hurt Pet Theories.

You're being weird here, Cliff. The belief among many that shots came from the front has almost nothing to do with the BDM. Everyone I've ever known who thought shots came from the front, with the possible exception of...you...believed the shooter was either behind the fence or on the South Knoll. In the eyes of these people, pretty much everyone, BDM is a distraction. Heck, the HSCA, which you seem to believe suspected BDM was a shooter, said nothing of the sort. 

As far as Groden and Roberdeau...they thought the shots came from the front, from behind the picket fence. I don't recall either of them saying they believed BDM was a shooter. 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:00 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

I think that what Virginia Rachley Baker saw wasn't actually a bullet, although that was her impression, because what she saw hit the street looked "like sparks" that she imagined a bullet would have made if it had struck there. What I think she saw was the "skull fragment" (Mark Lane's words) or the "whatever it was" (Charles Brehm's words--actually a skull fragment, subsequently picked up by Seymour Weitzman) that landed on the street near Brehm's feet. A splash of red from the fragment landing may have added to the impression that it was "sparks." But I am pretty sure she actually saw a skull fragment land on the street rather than a bullet hitting the street.

Oswald's shot-1 at about pseudo Z105 ricocheted off the overhead signal arm near Rachley/Rackley & made a hole in the floorpan of the jfklimo, & probly rattled around off the driveshaft. I doubt that Rachley/Rackley would have seen any sparks under the limo (unless she was low down on her knees).

No other shot hit Elm St near the TSBD -- Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.

But one or two of SSA Hickey's shots from his AR15 might have hit Elms St or Main St at about Z303 &/or Z306. 

Hickey's JFK headshot was at Z312/Z313, & the chrome trim dent was at about Z309.

Edited March 16 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Cliff Varnell]

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

You're being weird here, Cliff.

That's rich coming from you.

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The belief among many that shots came from the front has almost nothing to do with the BDM.

So what?  You appear incapable of dealing with the evidence.  You going to ever get beyond Pat Speer says Robert Groden says (maybe) that Faye Chism says (maybe) that she was Black Dog Man (maybe)?

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Everyone I've ever known who thought shots came from the front, with the possible exception of...you...believed the shooter was either behind the fence or on the South Knoll.

What part of the HSCA photo-analysis or Don Roberdeau's discovery do you not grasp?

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

 

In the eyes of these people, pretty much everyone, BDM is a distraction. Heck, the HSCA, which you seem to believe suspected BDM was a shooter, said nothing of the sort. 

They said the photo wasn't clear enough -- but they didn't discount the possibility, did they?  They describe a very distinct straight line feature which is in no way consistent with a bottle of pop.

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Groden and Roberdeau...they thought the shots came from the front, from behind the picket fence. I don't recall either of them saying they believed BDM was a shooter. 

So you couldn't be bothered to read his paper on the 2nd Rosemary Willis head snap at Z214.  Typical.

[Cliff Varnell]

I'm not claiming as a fact that BDM was a shooter,  I'm pointing to the evidence consistent with that conclusion.

Unlike Pat Speer I don't marry Pet Theories.