Do photos show Felipe Vidal Santiago as the Dark-Complected Man? And Roy Hargraves as the Umbrella Man?

[Ron Ege]

HSCA Volume IV 9/25/78:

" . . . Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you arrived at Elm Street? Mr. WITT. Well, I ended up turning left and going down into what is known as Dealey Plaza. The only reason I can think that I ended up down there was possibly I looked down there and saw an area where there were not a large group of people. There were people in that area but there was also in this area which later became known as the grassy knoll, there was no one out in that area in any great number. Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you reached the grassy knoll? Mr. WITT. I think I went sort of maybe halfway up the grassy area, somewhere in that vicinity. I am pretty sure I sat down . . ."

" . . . I THIK I WENT SORT OF MAYBE HALFWAY UP THE GRASSY AREA SOMEWHERE IN THAT VICINITY.  I AM PRETTY SURE I SAT DOWN . . ."  ???

 

" . . . Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw the motorcade coming into the area? Mr. WITT. Well, as I recall, the motorcade had already made the turn and was coming down Elm Street going west on Elm before I became aware it was there, and it would have been from a straight-line position off to my left about like this [indicating] when I saw it . Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw it approaching you? Mr. WITT. I think I got up and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward, walking toward the street. Mr. GENZMAN. You testified that you were opening the umbrella to use it as a symbol hoping to catch the President's eye? Mr. WITT. Yes, Sir. . ."

" . . . I THINK I GOT UP AND STARTED FIDDLING WITH THAT UMBRELLA, TRYING TO GET IT OPEN, AND AT THE SAME TIME I WAS WALKING FORWARD, WALKING TOWARD THE STREET. . . "  ???

". . .Mr. WITT. I beg your pardon? Mr. GENZMAN. What happened next? I believe you testified that you were moving forward opening your umbrella as the motorcade was approaching you? Mr. WITT. Yes. As I moved toward the street, still walking on the grass, I heard the shots that I eventually learned were shots. At the time somehow it didn't register as shots because they were so close together, and it was like hearing a string of firecrackers, or something like that. It didn't at that moment register on me as being shots. Mr. GENZMAN. Did you react in any way? Mr. WITT. No. I continued to move forward and finally got this umbrella up in the air. I think by the time I got the thing up in the air I was over and possibly standing on the retaining wall . . ."

" . . . Mr. GENZMAN.  Did you react in any way (after the shots)."

Mr. WITT:  NO.  I CONTINUED TO MOVE FORWARD AND FINALLY GOT THIS UMBRELLA UP IN THE AIR.  I THINK BY THE TIME I GOT THE THING UP IN THE AIR i WAS OVER AND POSSIBLY STANDING ON THE RETAINING WALL . . ."  ???

 

" . . .Mr. GENZMAN. What do you next recall happening? Mr. WITT. Let me go back a minute . As I was moving forward I apparently had this umbrella in front of me for some few steps. Whereas other people I understand saw the President shot and his movements; I did not see this because of this thing in front of me. The next thing I saw after I saw the car coming down the street, down the hill to my left, the car was just about at a position like this [indicating] at this angle here. At this time there was the car stopping, the screeching of tires, the jamming on of brakes, motorcycle patrolman right there beside one of the cars. One car ran upon the President's car and a man jumped off and jumped on the back. These were the scenes that unfolded as I reached the point to where I was seeing things . Mr. GENZMAN. What did you hear at that time? Did you hear any voices? Mr. WITT. I don't recall any voices at that particular time. After I finally became aware that something had happened, you know, something terrible had happened, I just sat down . I was standing on the retaining wall, and I just sat down, just right straight down, and apparently-I don't know if I had laid the umbrella down or dropped it or what I did. Nevertheless, I think it ended up on the sidewalk, and I just sat there. . ."

" . . . Mr. Whitt.  WHERE AS OTHER PEOPLE SAW THE PREIDENT SHOT SHOTS AND HIS MOVEMENTS; I DID NOT SEE THIS BECAUSE OF THIS THING (the umbrella) IN FRONT OF ME . . ."  ???

" . . .Mr. Witt.  Sometime later after the cars moved out, this is when all the activity in the cars stopping and the cars moved out, I recall a man  sitting down to my right and he said something like : They done shot them folks. He repeated it two or three times but it was repetitious of him saying the same thing. Mr. GENZMAN. What was he saying? Mr. WITT. They done shot them folks-something to this effect. Mr. GENZMAN. Can you describe this man? Mr. WITT. I remember him as being a Negro man. I don't know if I ever actually looked at him for any length of time or not. . ."

Mr. WITT.  " . . .THEY DONE SHOT THEM FOLKS . . ."   ??? Really?

Was Mr. Witt suffering from a poor or false memory?

I dunno.

Color me curious.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Regarding the suggestion DCM might be Joannadies, he doesn't look very dark complected in this picture.

[Matt Cloud]

14 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Regarding the suggestion DCM might be Joannadies, he doesn't look very dark complected in this picture.

Right, Ron, the things is as I mentioned in one of my posts on whether it was Joannides I pointed out the possibility that he was in make-up.  There is a picture out there with DCM in Dealey Plaza where it looks like he's wearing a Groucho Marx nose -- meaning his nose is of a noticeably different and lighter shade than the rest of his face.  The implication being that his makeup by the time the photo was taken was starting to wipe away.  Also, Joannides could have spent all summer and fall in Florida and the Caribbean, training BoP exiles.  

 

I would agree that Joannides looks a little fuller in face and body than DCM too, although within a few short years Joannides would lose that roundness, as you can see by one of the (few) photos of him just a few years later, in Vietnam.

Edited June 9 by Matt Cloud

[Cliff Varnell]

Okay.  So Umbrella Man was Roy Hargraves and Dark Complected Man was Felipe Vidal Santiago (or Gordon Novel and George Joannides).

What were they doing there?  Signaling?  To whom?  The shooters?  The shooters were watching Hargraves, Santiago and Kennedy at the same time?  If they were signaling to a spotter standing next to a shooter -- what could they possibly signal that the spotter couldn't see thru binoculars?

So after the murder of a US President two of the conspirators casually took a seat on the curb where they could be photographed.  Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?

As odd as Witt's Chamberlain-umbrella-shaming story seems, the above scenario is pure bonkers.

BTW, Umbrella Man and Louis Witt had prominent noses, Hargraves did not.

[Matt Cloud]

16 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Okay.  So Umbrella Man was Roy Hargraves and Dark Complected Man was Felipe Vidal Santiago (or Gordon Novel and George Joannides).

What were they doing there?  Signaling?  To whom?  The shooters?  The shooters were watching Hargraves, Santiago and Kennedy at the same time?  If they were signaling to a spotter standing next to a shooter -- what could they possibly signal that the spotter couldn't see thru binoculars?

So after the murder of a US President two of the conspirators casually took a seat on the curb where they could be photographed.  Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?

As odd as Witt's Chamberlain-umbrella-shaming story seems, the above scenario is pure bonkers.

BTW, Umbrella Man and Louis Witt had prominent noses, Hargraves did not.

"Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?"

 

That's exactly what they did.  

[Cliff Varnell]

1 minute ago, Matt Cloud said:

"Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?"

 

That's exactly what they did.  

How is sitting down on the curb getting away from the scene ASAP?

[Matt Cloud]

1 minute ago, Cliff Varnell said:

How is sitting down on the curb getting away from the scene ASAP?

uh .. because running from a shooting looks bad?  Why not sit a few moments, see if anyone is taking notice of you, the gently get up and walk off in separate ways and never be heard from again.  That's the definition of getting away "as soon as possible."  Not immediately.  But when it's possible.  When the coast is clear.

 

Oy!

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

uh .. because running from a shooting looks bad?

Why run?  Calmly walk away.

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

 

  Why not sit a few moments, see if anyone is taking notice of you, the gently get up and walk off in separate ways and never be heard from again.

Because you could be photographed.  Why not immediately saunter off and not give anyone time to notice you?

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

 

  That's the definition of getting away "as soon as possible."  Not immediately.  But when it's possible.  When the coast is clear.

 

Oy!

 

 

The coast was clear.  Attention was directed toward the grassy knoll.

[Cliff Varnell]

Matt, what was the Hargraves/Santiago function? 

Is that how a military style ambush proceeds -- spotters out on the street separate from the shooters?

[Matt Cloud]

5 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Matt, what was the Hargraves/Santiago function? 

Is that how a military style ambush proceeds -- spotters out on the street separate from the shooters?

I don't know.  You're the true detective.  But I say he's Joannides.  I say a guy with his hand up in the road the moment the president gets shot is suspicious.  You don't, evidently. 

 

I'm not so sure I agree 100% with your policework there Cliff.

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I don't know.  You're the true detective.

Ah, so you can't address the issue so it's straight to snark.

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

But I say he's Joannides. 

Doing what?

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I say a guy with his hand up in the road the moment the president gets shot is suspicious.  You don't, evidently. 

He held up his fist after the first shot -- that's a military signal for hold fire.

Are you sure "people-raising-their-arms-as-the-President-passes" is where you want to plant your flag?

Edited June 10 by Cliff Varnell

[Matt Cloud]

13 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Ah, so you can't address the issue so it's straight to snark.

Doing what?

He held up his fist after the first shot -- that's a military signal for hold fire.

Are you sure "people-raising-their-arms-as-the-President-passes" is where you want to plant your flag?

Yes, I'm sure, especially at that point along Elm street.

But now I am decidedly less sure of any coherence on your part.  First I thought you were pleading his innocence. Now you're saying he's signaling to "hold fire."  Which is it?  If the latter, then we're in agreement -- at least as to the possibility of some involvement, in some way, signaling perhaps something.   

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

There is zero hard evidence to support the notion that Louis Witt was not the Umbrella Man.

[Cliff Varnell]

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Yes, I'm sure, especially at that point along Elm street.

A few other people had raised arms.

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

But now I am decidedly less sure of any coherence on your part.  First I thought you were pleading his innocence.

I plead innocence for Umbrella Man.

I'm agnostic about DCM.

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Now you're saying he's signaling to "hold fire."  Which is it? 

I'm trying to coax out of you a cogent scenario wherein George Joannides stood on the curb or in the street holding his fist in the air.  The shooting had already started and a raised fist is a military signal for "hold fire."

And then sit down out in the open for several minutes where he could be photographed.

Edited June 10 by Cliff Varnell

[Matt Cloud]

26 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

A few other people had raised arms.

I plead innocence for Umbrella Man.

I'm agnostic about DCM.

I'm trying to coax out of you a cogent scenario wherein George Joannides stood on the curb or in the street holding his fist in the air.  The shooting had already started and a raised fist is a military signal for "hold fire."

And then sit down out in the open for several minutes where he could be photographed.

You are a complete and utter time-waster, on this and other threads.  I don't know who it was or what if anything they may have been signaling.  I propose expanding possible candidates to Joannides, based on clothing and other factors.  Why that possible avenue of exploration bothers you or anyone else you and they will have to explain.