A very faint lead, impossible to verify (re Oswald in Atsugi)

[Greg Doudna]

An older man, 80-plus, I have run into and become acquainted with in a coffee shop, like a lot of retirees who settle here from elsewhere, sometimes have interesting stories, and this was one. I will call him "R". What I recount happened earlier today, Sunday afternoon. 

R told me he knew a man long ago at Cal State LA, in East Los Angeles, where they were both students, who told him he had served with and knew Oswald at Atsugi, Japan, both doing radar work. This man had completed his term of service and was now at Cal State LA.

This man told R he had seen a paystub of Oswald. All the paystubs had on them the person's "MOS", Military Occupational Specialty designation, which in this man's and Oswald's case was radar something.

But this man told R he personally saw Oswald's, unlike his own paystub, had a second MOS listed for Oswald on Oswald's paystub, which was "Russian" language, which struck him as odd at the time. The MOS could affect pay scale.

This was at a time before Oswald supposedly learned Russian on his own in the Soviet Union. And I do not believe the Marines or military ever confirmed training Oswald in Russian.

R told me the name of this fellow service person with Oswald at Atsugi: "George Hayes". (R spelled it for me; that is the spelling as R told me.)

I asked if George Hayes had told this or been interviewed, and R said no, not that he knew of, he never went public with it. And I cannot find any reference to a "George Hayes" as a fellow serviceperson with Oswald, etc.

R said he did not keep in touch with George Hayes after those college days and they went their separate ways, no idea what became of him. R said George Hayes told him that in the cafeteria at Cal State LA where they ate.

Unfortunately the name "George Hayes" is sufficiently common that I am pessimistic he could be identified today. If he was identified, the next question is would he still be alive, and could he be interviewed on videotape for some historical record for whatever that might be worth. But even then, a witness telling what they remembered seeing on a document sixty years earlier is nothing to go on, impossible to verify.

But it is one of those random accidental wisps of life that happen now and then ... sixty years later... who knows the truth of these things. 

Edited July 8 by Greg Doudna

[Jean Ceulemans]

Thanks for sharing, one never knows.

IMO there has to be a little more to LHO taking that Russian language test. I have never read anything as to actually why he took it.  It could have been a financial incentive, yes, but would the "poor" score be enough for that? Don´t think so. So was there perhaps another test later on? Or was the first test to see at what level he could enter classes? Or just something he tried...

Now, I would consider it indeed odd for a person to have 2 MOS.  I have been looking at the 1960´s MOS codes and basically they are all jobs/rangs.

Any supplement would rather be noted as an allowance or bonus I think? Not a second MOS code IMO.  Odd it is.

So many questions...., we could fill a couple of books with questions about LHO. 

 

 

Edited July 8 by Jean Ceulemans
Add./correct.

[Gerry Down]

I wonder if Oswald felt he might have come under suspicion among his fellow marines and superiors for his unusual interest in Russian and so he felt obliged to take the marines Russian test to make it look like he was learning Russian as part of his future marine career when it was actually for his upcoming defection which he was keeping secret.

[Jonathan Cohen]

33 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

I wonder if Oswald felt he might have come under suspicion among his fellow marines and superiors for his unusual interest in Russian and so he felt obliged to take the marines Russian test to make it look like he was learning Russian as part of his future marine career when it was actually for his upcoming defection which he was keeping secret.

Gerry, are you implying Oswald was not a genuine defector?

[Greg Doudna]

I talked to “R” again. He says George Hayes did speak of seeing two MOS’s on the same paystub of Oswald, one of which had to do with Russian language. R who is himself a veteran said his own paystubs only had one MOS so that seemed unusual. He said George Hayes told him that in ca 1967-1968, reconstructing that timing based on toward the later part of R’s own time at Cal State LA ‘65-‘68. He said he and George Hayes took a trip to Esalen once. He said George Hayes was a major in psychology (field of study). He remembered George as about maybe 5’10”, clean shaven, military bearing. 

I’m half hoping some grandchild or family member may see this, recognize their family member, and say if George Hayes said or wrote anything about this to the family. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Gerry, are you implying Oswald was not a genuine defector?

No, I meant Oswald was keeping his upcoming defection secret from everyone. Only he knew about it.

[Jean Ceulemans]

His actual defection, he would have kept secret. But, early september his intention to go to Russia (and other countries, even Cuba) was known to the State (cfr. his passport application). 

[Jean Ceulemans]

41 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I talked to “R” again. He says George Hayes did speak of seeing two MOS’s on the same paystub of Oswald, one of which had to do with Russian language. R who is himself a veteran said his own paystubs only had one MOS so that seemed unusual. He said George Hayes told him that in ca 1967-1968, reconstructing that timing based on toward the later part of R’s own time at Cal State LA ‘65-‘68. He said he and George Hayes took a trip to Esalen once. He said George Hayes was a major in psychology (field of study). He remembered George as about maybe 5’10”, clean shaven, military bearing. 

I’m half hoping some grandchild or family member may see this, recognize their family member, and say if George Hayes said or wrote anything about this to the family. 

Been reading about MOS, it is/was possible to have more than one MOS it seems (primary, secondary and duty), just haven´t found a MOS yet that relates to something Russian.

[Gerry Down]

I wonder if the second MOS could refer to a second duty LHO had in Japan, which would be working as an intelligence asset at the Queen Bee. Is it possible that such intelligence roles had an obscure MOS to conceal the fact the marine was working in intelligence? In this case they might have taken advantage of the fact LHO was studying Russian and put down his second MOS as "Russian" as a cover for his intelligence work.

That might even be why LHO took the Russian language test even though the marines did not give him Russian lessons. The test was part of his cover as an intelligence asset so they could put down "Russian" as his second MOS and issue payment for that second role.

I don't know though if it was standard practise for intelligence assets to have such a second MOS concealed in this way.

[Jean Ceulemans]

In the actual codes from the 1950´s I do find Interpreter (linked to a spec. language) and Interrogator (id.).

But normally a secondary MOS has to do with the primary. In his case I don't see it (yet...). 

Otherwise there is just the bonus system for languages.

Edited July 8 by Jean Ceulemans

[Mike Aitken]

19 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

An older man, 80-plus, I have run into and become acquainted with in a coffee shop, like a lot of retirees who settle here from elsewhere, sometimes have interesting stories, and this was one. I will call him "R". What I recount happened earlier today, Sunday afternoon. 

R told me he knew a man long ago at Cal State LA, in East Los Angeles, where they were both students, who told him he had served with and knew Oswald at Atsugi, Japan, both doing radar work. This man had completed his term of service and was now at Cal State LA.

This man told R he had seen a paystub of Oswald. All the paystubs had on them the person's "MOS", Military Occupational Specialty designation, which in this man's and Oswald's case was radar something.

But this man told R he personally saw Oswald's, unlike his own paystub, had a second MOS listed for Oswald on Oswald's paystub, which was "Russian" language, which struck him as odd at the time. The MOS could affect pay scale.

This was at a time before Oswald supposedly learned Russian on his own in the Soviet Union. And I do not believe the Marines or military ever confirmed training Oswald in Russian.

R told me the name of this fellow service person with Oswald at Atsugi: "George Hayes". (R spelled it for me; that is the spelling as R told me.)

I asked if George Hayes had told this or been interviewed, and R said no, not that he knew of, he never went public with it. And I cannot find any reference to a "George Hayes" as a fellow serviceperson with Oswald, etc.

R said he did not keep in touch with George Hayes after those college days and they went their separate ways, no idea what became of him. R said George Hayes told him that in the cafeteria at Cal State LA where they ate.

Unfortunately the name "George Hayes" is sufficiently common that I am pessimistic he could be identified today. If he was identified, the next question is would he still be alive, and could he be interviewed on videotape for some historical record for whatever that might be worth. But even then, a witness telling what they remembered seeing on a document sixty years earlier is nothing to go on, impossible to verify.

But it is one of those random accidental wisps of life that happen now and then ... sixty years later... who knows the truth of these things. 

The internet has definitely made it a lot easier to find people these days…

www.familytreenow.com

www.whitepages.com

[Mike Aitken]

www.familytreenow.com has 34 listings for George Hayes and most are outside of the age range you’re looking for.  Any other information your friend may have, like where he was originally from, exact age, wife’s name, etc. would help in narrowing it down even further.

[Greg Doudna]

4 minutes ago, Mike Aitken said:

www.familytreenow.com has 34 listings for George Hayes and most are outside of the age range you’re looking for.  Any other information your friend may have, like where he was originally from, exact age, wife’s name, etc. would help in narrowing it down even further.

I called "R" again. He says now he thinks it was probably 1966 or 1967 when George Hayes told him that, he doesn't think it was as late as 1968. He says George Hayes was not married, no wife in the picture that he knew of, when he knew him. He did not know George's age, said his best guess would be about the same age as R was, which was 23 in 1966. By that estimate George Hayes' birth year would be estimated ca. 1943 plus or minus a few. However since he said he worked in radar with Oswald when Oswald was at Atsugi, that would be 1958-1959, and I would think someone in the armed forces would have to have been at least 18 by 1959, which would mean a birth year no later than ca. 1941. Therefore putting the two together it sounds to me like best estimate for year of birth would be ca. 1940-1942. I asked if he knew where George Hayes grew up and did he mention brothers or sisters or parents and he said he did not know on those questions, they just discussed current events.  

[Jean Ceulemans]

How about Cal State? In Belgium one can access the yearbooks in the libraries. Just an idea. Access to the registers listing all the students is usually restricted.

Edited July 9 by Jean Ceulemans