JFK and the Neocons-- Two New DiEugenio Essays

[Kevin Balch]

4 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Where did the buck stop?

He got tricked by WASP elite types.  Same thing with the Bay of Pigs.

The buck stopped with JFK -- and the hero worship is over the top.

In his private notes he recorded after Diem’s death, he admits it was a badly worded telegram and a xxxx up implicitly sharing the blame.

You are certainly right in pointing out over the top JFK worship.

[W. Niederhut]

48 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Yes. If he couldn’t make the case before the American people, he should have respected the overwhelming sentiments. Remarkable that those that that lament “foreign interference” in US affairs and the sanctity of democracy are very likely to support FDR’s subterfuge.

Rather bizarre logic.

In essence, you're arguing that FDR should have simply accepted Hitler's blitzkrieg in Poland, and his subsequent invasion of Belgium and France, in addition to his bombings of Rotterdam and Great Britain, because many Americans didn't want to get involved in defending the "sanctity of democracy" in Europe from militant fascism?

[Kevin Balch]

6 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Rather bizarre logic.

In essence, you're arguing that FDR should have simply accepted Hitler's blitzkrieg in Poland, and his subsequent invasion of Belgium and France, in addition to his bombings of Rotterdam and Great Britain, because many Americans didn't want to get involved in defending the "sanctity of democracy" in Europe from militant fascism?

So you don’t believe in democracy? And you would also like to ally with the nation that helped start the war and with nations that had colonies across the globe?

Edited 14 hours ago by Kevin Balch

[Ron Bulman]

17 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

So you don’t believe in democracy?

That is a rather slanderous statement to a moderator whose father served as a tank commander in WWII.

[Kevin Balch]

3 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

That is a rather slanderous statement to a moderator whose father served as a tank commander in WWII.

How so?

[Kevin Balch]

By the way, the godfather of neoconservatism (Leo Strauss) held that it is a moral virtue to tell a “noble lie” for your cause.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/article_1542jsp/

[Ron Bulman]

As far as FDR wanting to enter the war to stop fascism, I'm down with that.   

[W. Niederhut]

12 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

So you don’t believe in democracy? And you would also like to ally with the nation that helped start the war and with nations that had colonies across the globe?

Britain started WWII?

Did they blitzkrieg Poland, or what, exactly?

As for "democracy," it was destroyed in Germany when Hitler and the Nazis burned the Reichstag and ended the Weimar Republic.

Edited 1 hour ago by W. Niederhut

[Kirk Gallaway]

On 7/11/2024 at 11:34 AM, W. Niederhut said:

I was unaware that Churchill and the British Ambassador to the U.S. were involved in the push to replace Henry Wallace on FDR's 1944 Presidential ticket.

What? this Stevenson memo? To be clear, Jim Di has not at all conclusively proved Britain had any role at all in replacing Wallace. in 1944. The U.S.was in the driver's seat. Britain was in debt to the U.S. for becoming the critical piece in the turning of WW2. And both FDR and Wallace were anti colonialist.

It was all domestic U.S. It was the Dem party bosses that were concerned about Wallace splitting off the Southern wing of the party , so they put in a Missourian , Truman.

*****

Cliff:

Where did the buck stop?

He got tricked by WASP elite types.  Same thing with the Bay of Pigs.

The buck stopped with JFK -- and the hero worship is over the top.

 

I agree with Cliff. Is JFK ever going to stop being characterized here as an innocent victim being betrayed by all of his appointments and everybody else around him? Then we hear endlessly that JFK surrounded himself with the ivy league "best and the brightest"?

But FDR never had these problems, his cabinet was largely a grass roots of people throughout the country. Including Wallace who graduated from Iowa State university and whose first job was working for his family's farm Journal, and then he  started a hybrid corn company.

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

What? this Stevenson memo? To be clear, Jim Di has not at all conclusively proved Britain had any role at all in replacing Wallace. in 1944. The U.S.was in the driver's seat. Britain was in debt to the U.S. for becoming the critical piece in the turning of WW2. And both FDR and Wallace were anti colonialist.

It was all domestic U.S. It was the Dem party bosses that were concerned about Wallace splitting off the Southern wing of the party , so they put in a Missourian , Truman.

 

I dunno, Kirk.

Let's recall that Churchill wanted the U.S. to nuke the Soviet Union after WWII, and he was utterly delighted when Truman came out swinging against our allies, Stalin and Molotov, in Potsdam.

Most people don't know that Churchill also dropped poison gas bombs on the Bolsheviks during the Russian Revolution.

And he was very reluctant to open a Second Front for Stalin in WWII.

It was FDR who responded to Stalin's request for a Second Front in Western Europe-- which is the main reason that my dad and the American GIs under Patton landed in North Africa in 1943.

IMO, Churchill wanted the Nazi Wehrmacht to destroy Bolshevism.

Then, after the Red Army defeated the Wehrmacht in Stalingrad, and started to roll the Nazis back 1,000 miles to Berlin, Churchill feared that the Reds would occupy the entire European continent.

Many people still don't realize how massive the Red Army was by 1945.

[Kevin Balch]

10 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Britain started WWII?

Did they blitzkrieg Poland, or what, exactly?

As for "democracy" it was destroyed in Germany when Hitler and the Nazis burned the Reichstag and ended the Weimar Republic.

Maybe you need a reminder of some basic historical facts.

The Reichstag was burned by a communist, not a false flag operation by the Nazis. Hitler just exploited the act and cited provisions in the Weimar constitution that gave him dictatorial powers.

The Soviets helped to rearm Germany in violation of the Treaty of Versailles a decade before Hitler even came to power ie. under your vaunted Weimar Republic. The Soviets allowed Germany to set up arms plants and training facilities in Soviet territory in return for access to German military technology.

The Soviets entered into the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact which agreed upon a joint invasion of Poland as well as supplying Germany with the raw materials vital to the invasions of all the subsequent countries invaded by Germany. 

The Soviets themselves invaded/conquered several nations themselves during this period. The Soviets were eventually ejected from the League of Nations.

In the meantime, the Soviets pursued a vigorous propaganda campaign in the US to keep the US neutral.

The Soviets directed US Treasury official Harry Dexter White to direct US policy toward Japan to take a hard line on economic sanctions to increase the chances that Japan would strike the US rather than the USSR. At the time, there was a debate between the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy on whether to attack the USSR or whether to launch a preemptive strike on the US Pacific fleet, the goal being oil resources in the USSR or in southeast Asia.

Yet not only did we ally with the Soviets, we even included them as judges in the Nuremberg Tribunals!

[W. Niederhut]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Maybe you need a reminder of some basic historical facts.

The Reichstag was burned by a communist, not a false flag operation by the Nazis. Hitler just exploited the act and cited provisions in the Weimar constitution that gave him dictatorial powers.

 

Yeah, Kevin, we all know that Goering propaganda trope.

Claiming that the socialists burned down the Reichstag is like claiming that Antifa attacked the U.S. Capitol on January 6th.

Goering was a master of false flag concepts.

 

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Yeah, Kevin, we all know that Goering propaganda trope.

Claiming that the socialists burned down the Reichstag is like claiming that Antifa attacked the U.S. Capitol on January 6th.

Goering was a master of false flag concepts.

 

Van der Lubber was arrested in the Reichstag (there for an after-hours tour?) and had  committed arson several times previously.

Just a coincidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_van_der_Lubbe#:~:text=On 27 February 1933%2C van der Lubbe was,building%2C soon after the building had begun burning.

What about the other points I raised?