The JFK Assassination Dissected Cyril Wecht and Dawana Kaufmann

[Ron Bulman]

First, has anyone else here read this?  I'm just finishing it, 10 pages to go, many flagged/highlighted passages.  Three from the latter part I thought I'd share for now.

One.  "During the period when de Mohrenschildt gave testimony to the Warren Commision, he told me that on more than one occasion he would privately eat lunch with Allen Dulles, I was stunned to hear the former CIA director would extend an invitation for an off the record meeting with any witness."  Page 241.

I was stunned too reading this, but maybe I shouldn't have been. GDM met Allen in about 1917 at about 10-12 years old in Russia/Belarius where his dad managed an oil field during the Russian revolution which Allen was seeking an interest in on behalf of Sullivan and Cromwell/the Rockefellers of Wall Street.  From memory, correct me, Devil's Chessboard, Talbot.

Two.  My lunch with Marina, beginning page 260.  I thought this had been put to rest in discussions on the forum, in the opposite direction, apparently, I was wrong.  To summarize, Wecht surprisingly got a call from Marina in 1991, he had never talked to her.  But she had read and seen his work.  She had agreed to an interview she didn't want to do and asked him to do it for her, which he did.  They agreed to speak again in more detail in the future.  That happened in November 1992 in a "quiet corner" of a restaurant Marina chose over a leisurely meal with Wecht's wife Sigrid also present.  A very interesting lunch, as Dr. Wecht says, she was a very astute scholar of the assassination.

"As she had said over the phone, Oswald was never a verry good husband, but now she added more details.  He beat her, including while she was pregnant, and would force himself on her . . .

I thought that was dispelled.  But she seems very credible, down to earth and knowledgeable and open in this lunch with the esteemed Dr. Wecht.

Three.  Page 279.  President Nixon seemed star stuck by Connally, the handsome Texan with the bigger-than-life personality.  Despite the latter's decades long obeisance to the Democratic party, Nixon offered to appoint Connally as U.S. secretary of the treasury.  But Connally would only take the job if Nixon could find a nice gig for George H. W, Bush . . .  a one term congressman who had lost two senatorial bids.  Nixon appointed him Ambassador to the United Nations, kicking his political profile into high gear."  Onwards and backwards to the CIA?

[Sandy Larsen]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"As she had said over the phone, Oswald was never a verry good husband, but now she added more details.  He beat her, including while she was pregnant, and would force himself on her . . ."

 

I don't believe it.

I think Marina said that because the alternative story has her looking bad.

 

[Greg Doudna]

Even his friend and advocate (posthumously anyway) in the manuscript “I’m a Patsy!”, de Mohrenschildt, said Oswald was a hitter of Marina when he was angry, and de Mohrenschildt told him that was wrong. Marina apparently got some hits in on Lee too when they fought. I knew a man in Ohio who ran a shelter for troubled people in transition and he told me they had one couple in one room that to this day he honestly could not tell whether it was mutual battery or rough sex, every night, sounds from their room.

[Sandy Larsen]

Yelling and arguing are one thing. Beating is quite another. And there was only gossip that that happened.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

I don't recall in which thread it is, but a recent post showed that Ruth Paine said Lee was a loving husband.

 

[Pat Speer]

21 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

First, has anyone else here read this?  I'm just finishing it, 10 pages to go, many flagged/highlighted passages.  Three from the latter part I thought I'd share for now.

One.  "During the period when de Mohrenschildt gave testimony to the Warren Commision, he told me that on more than one occasion he would privately eat lunch with Allen Dulles, I was stunned to hear the former CIA director would extend an invitation for an off the record meeting with any witness."  Page 241.

I was stunned too reading this, but maybe I shouldn't have been. GDM met Allen in about 1917 at about 10-12 years old in Russia/Belarius where his dad managed an oil field during the Russian revolution which Allen was seeking an interest in on behalf of Sullivan and Cromwell/the Rockefellers of Wall Street.  From memory, correct me, Devil's Chessboard, Talbot.

Two.  My lunch with Marina, beginning page 260.  I thought this had been put to rest in discussions on the forum, in the opposite direction, apparently, I was wrong.  To summarize, Wecht surprisingly got a call from Marina in 1991, he had never talked to her.  But she had read and seen his work.  She had agreed to an interview she didn't want to do and asked him to do it for her, which he did.  They agreed to speak again in more detail in the future.  That happened in November 1992 in a "quiet corner" of a restaurant Marina chose over a leisurely meal with Wecht's wife Sigrid also present.  A very interesting lunch, as Dr. Wecht says, she was a very astute scholar of the assassination.

"As she had said over the phone, Oswald was never a verry good husband, but now she added more details.  He beat her, including while she was pregnant, and would force himself on her . . .

I thought that was dispelled.  But she seems very credible, down to earth and knowledgeable and open in this lunch with the esteemed Dr. Wecht.

Three.  Page 279.  President Nixon seemed star stuck by Connally, the handsome Texan with the bigger-than-life personality.  Despite the latter's decades long obeisance to the Democratic party, Nixon offered to appoint Connally as U.S. secretary of the treasury.  But Connally would only take the job if Nixon could find a nice gig for George H. W, Bush . . .  a one term congressman who had lost two senatorial bids.  Nixon appointed him Ambassador to the United Nations, kicking his political profile into high gear."  Onwards and backwards to the CIA?

Wait. When did Wecht speak to DeMohrenschildt? 

The phrasing makes it sound like 1964. Wecht was not a leading light of the research community at that time. I highly doubt he spoke to DeMohrenschildt in 1964, let alone about Dulles. 

[Ron Bulman]

45 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Wait. When did Wecht speak to DeMohrenschildt? 

The phrasing makes it sound like 1964. Wecht was not a leading light of the research community at that time. I highly doubt he spoke to DeMohrenschildt in 1964, let alone about Dulles. 

1977.  The comma is the key Pat.  I should have put the quote in a greater context, I can see how it might look like Wecht was talking about 1964.  Which he was, about what George said, in 1977.

To summarize a little greater detail from what I just re read and I'm referring to as I type:

In early 1977 Wecht got a call out of the blue from Willem Oltmans whom he'd heard of but never spoken with.  Oltmans was staying at de Mohrenschildt's in Dallas audio recording George's story over the years for a planned autobiography.  Oltman's said George was fearful about his upcoming HSCA testimony, would Wecht be willing to talk to him about what he thought George might expect?  To quote Cyril "I wasn't going to turn down the opportunity to meet both these men, so I flew there and spent a long afternoon with them at de Mohrenschildt's home, which he designed." 

Wecht says his request to testify to the HSCA had not yet been granted so he couldn't speak from personal experience.  But from reading the WC report he knew GDM had testified for two full days.  Wecht was puzzled why he seemed so unnerved, GDM's responses to the Warren panel had been so assured.  "he was kicking himself now over answers to the WC which now seemed glib to him now".  He advised him to take an attorney he trusted and tell him his story beforehand.

He asked him if he was or ever had been a CIA agent he denied it but admitted he had encountered agents in his travels and been debriefed after foreign trips.  That (Dallas CIA head) J Walton Moore insisted Oswald was "a harmless lunatic" and encouraged them to stay in the ex-Marine's life.

The comes the "During the period when de Mohrenschildt gave testimony to the Warren Commission,  he told me that on more than one occasion he would Privately eat lunch with Allen Dulles."  

[Pat Speer]

14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

1977.  The comma is the key Pat.  I should have put the quote in a greater context, I can see how it might look like Wecht was talking about 1964.  Which he was, about what George said, in 1977.

To summarize a little greater detail from what I just re read and I'm referring to as I type:

In early 1977 Wecht got a call out of the blue from Willem Oltmans whom he'd heard of but never spoken with.  Oltmans was staying at de Mohrenschildt's in Dallas audio recording George's story over the years for a planned autobiography.  Oltman's said George was fearful about his upcoming HSCA testimony, would Wecht be willing to talk to him about what he thought George might expect?  To quote Cyril "I wasn't going to turn down the opportunity to meet both these men, so I flew there and spent a long afternoon with them at de Mohrenschildt's home, which he designed." 

Wecht says his request to testify to the HSCA had not yet been granted so he couldn't speak from personal experience.  But from reading the WC report he knew GDM had testified for two full days.  Wecht was puzzled why he seemed so unnerved, GDM's responses to the Warren panel had been so assured.  "he was kicking himself now over answers to the WC which now seemed glib to him now".  He advised him to take an attorney he trusted and tell him his story beforehand.

He asked him if he was or ever had been a CIA agent he denied it but admitted he had encountered agents in his travels and been debriefed after foreign trips.  That (Dallas CIA head) J Walton Moore insisted Oswald was "a harmless lunatic" and encouraged them to stay in the ex-Marine's life.

The comes the "During the period when de Mohrenschildt gave testimony to the Warren Commission,  he told me that on more than one occasion he would Privately eat lunch with Allen Dulles."  

Thanks. Very interesting. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

IMO, GDM was being the type of liaison-officer he always had been.  The one guy that knew them ALL.  The guy that travelled everywhere.  Since his years in Belgium he always had a cover-job that would get him where he needed to be. But before he left Belgium he was sure to learn his girlfriend how to make money with insurances...  Within months of GDM leaving she got robbed twice...  The last one didn´t hold up in court, goods found, charges dropped, no insurance money...  auch...

None of his so called business ventures were very succesfull... imo just covers to pay for his expenses, sometimes he would get a nice bonus that could keep his (expensive) lifestyle going.  

His job in the oil business... he takes a couple of classes, gets a degree, and next?  Not much... unless... they needed "a specialist" to sign off an oil prospect (oil depletion allowance)...

But whenever GDM left, it was sure there was trouble around the corner.... (we all know the examples). 

 

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks. Very interesting. 

As you know, George, by that time, was no longer the man he used to be. He was going dowhill, and IMO hanging around with Oltmans was a bad idea. Oltmans had been pushing him, GDM only getting more nervous, Oltmans all of a sudden introducing him to a Russian was enough to scare GDM for good and have another nervous breakdown.  Ran off with the help of an old (Polish) college friend that still lived in Belgium.  

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/17/2024 at 4:55 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't believe it.

I think Marina said that because the alternative story has her looking bad.

 

IDK Sandy.  I know you've debated with several others on this in depth before.  I don't remember all the details.  As I alluded to, I thought it was pretty well settled he didn't beat her.  So, this surprised me too.

Technically not an interview maybe, but a long lunch widely ranging conversation.  I was impressed the way Wecht described it with her possibly being more candid, open and mature at that point than in say her Warren Commission testimony and the Priscilla McMillan period.

First, she called him because she trusted him after watching him on TV and reading some of his work to ask a favor.  She had been asked to be on a TV show "but didn't feel right about doing it and wondered if I would fill in for her."  He did.  As they talked further, he gathered "Marina appreciated my open-mindedness about her former husband, and as we spoke it became clear that she was an astute scholar of the case.  She recalled everything I had ever said with remarkable clarity and expressed that same knowledge of other people's comment in TV and radio interview, books and magazine articles.  They agreed to meet in person the next time Wecht was "in her neck of the woods."

November 1992, he had a lecture to do in Dallas.  He invited her to lunch with him and his wife.  Marina made arrangements at a local restaurant where they could have a leisurely meal.  The found her in a "booth in a quiet corner."  They shared photographs of children, the women bonded a bit the way it sounds.  "June and Rachel spoke with typical Texas twangs."  "Marina had saved every book and magazine article on Oswald and the Kennedy assassination, expecting that they might one day want to learn about him."

To follow up on my original quote starting the tread, "he constantly insulted her . . . After they moved from Russia to the United States, he made fun that she couldn't speak English but didn't want her to learn the language (some have asserted she did already know it).  He criticized the way she handled their babies . . ."

"I asked Marina if she thought her husband had shot the president.  Surely, she <did> . . . when she talked to authorities and the Warren Commission early on."  At our lunch she stated that she now believed Oswald was tellin the truth when he said he was a "patsy."  "Marina asserted that U.S. government had lied to both her and her late husband."

"Marina, Sigrid and I tried to talk it through.  why would the U.S. government go to the expense of training someone to become a double agent . . ."  "We reasoned that if Oswald's chosen profession was more than that of a shipping clerk at a book warehouse, he had to know what he was part of.  Maybe not everything, but enough to recognize that he had to keep his mouth shut and do what was needed."

"Marina was familiar with my spiel on the magic bullet," she'd seen the Zapruder film on Geraldo in 1975.  She knew about front right, grassy knoll.  Lee's trip down the stairs to the lunchroom.  He also asked if she knew about a Lee calling the FBI to warn about a Chicago attempt on JFK.  She did as well as Thomas Edward Vallee.

"Oswald sneered that she didn't understand politics . . . Marina just wasn't smart enough to know how the world worked, he insisted.  The remembrance of that upset her.  She dabbed at her watery eyes and reached for a cigarette, her go to habit when she felt stress." 

As Marina offered her views on these issues, I was in awe of how she could so astutely separate fact from conjecture . . . 

 

[Ron Bulman]

When I first started reading this book, I thought it was a good introduction to the assassination.  But it grew into more.  The "chapters" are short some only 2-3 pages, a couple at 10, and 12 but they are concise and intense, full of relevant information, some new to me.  There are 52 of them. 

The autopsy report was the most detailed description I've ever seen of it which he describes in layman terms.  He was livid over the shortness of its length.   My Lecture at the Acadamy of Forensic Sciences was particularly interesting too.  As well as Tracking JFK's Brain, The Lunch with Marina and several others.  Well worth the read imho.    

Edited 2 hours ago by Ron Bulman