The Hidell ID: what is the current timeline and did anyone else use it?

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Martin Nee said:

Hi Greg so I found a reference to this in a biography of Thornley on Internet Archive. 
https://archive.org/details/pranksterconspir0000gori/mode/1up?q=Ravenhurst

from page 39 on covers the story: Thornley created a fake marine named Omar Kahiyyam Ravenhurst while in MABS-11 and his other marine buddies participated in the hoax including creating fake documents for him. Not sure if Oswald would have been there at the time.

Thanks Martin, I read it. As you note it seems to have occurred in Thornley's outfit in Japan with Oswald not involved or part of it. In fact I can find only references to Thornley and Oswald being together at El Toro, not together in Japan at all. It is a great parallel in the imaginary hoax creation of a fake person who does not exist, but hard to reconstruct any actual connection or influence on Oswald's similar fictitious "Alek Hidell".

One other detail I noticed in the Gorightly book: that Eurasian woman Oswald was said to have been involved with while at Atsugi ... this book says she was teaching Oswald Russian. I wonder if that is true and if anyone knows if that woman was ever identified.  

[Greg Doudna]

David Josephs, you can go on saying every piece of evidence was forged involving casts of thousands, with no evidence ever come forth of a command central or nerve center coordinating all the witnesses and forged document coordination that your scenario presupposes... nope, I don't buy it. Its not plausible and there is no other comparative example in all of history for the scale of "all the evidence is forged" such as some imagine happened with Oswald and JFK. Oswald ordered a rifle, the order is in his handwriting, it is shipped to his PO Box, Marina told all about it against self-interest, nobody compelled or coerced or suborned perjury on that scale of testimony out of her as if she was a marionette who was scripted and rehearsed and learned her lines in secret practice sessions. Jeanne de Mohrenschildt saw the rifle. Oswald was photographed with it. George de Mohrenschildt knew about it, received a BYP in April 1963 before going to Haiti, and probably told the Dallas CIA Domestic Contacts office about it in early 1963 since he probably was keeping them otherwise informed on Oswald. Oswald told Fritz in interrogation that the revolver was his, though he dissembled on how he had obtained it. The rifle was shipped to Hidell at Oswald's PO Box, and REI would have sent a postcard to Hidell at Oswald's PO telling him his package had arrived.

You assert that the Post Office would not have put any mail addressed to Hidell in Oswald's PO Box, and would have returned such mail to the sender. Of course they would deliver mail to Hidell to Oswald's PO Box if Hidell's name was on the PO Box as authorized to receive mail there.

Then all Oswald had to do was show his photo ID of Hidell with his, Oswald's, picture on it to a hurried counter person who was not up to speed on the finer points of military ID forgery detection, and he's got his goods shipped in any larger packages. 

I believe I have advanced the issue of Oswald and the rifle on one thing related to Nov 11, 1963, though for some reason it has not seemed to resonate with either LN people or non-LN people for different reasons, even though it makes extremely good sense to me and I am "sure" it is correct. https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf.

[Martin Nee]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Thanks Martin, I read it. As you note it seems to have occurred in Thornley's outfit in Japan with Oswald not involved or part of it. In fact I can find only references to Thornley and Oswald being together at El Toro, not together in Japan at all. It is a great parallel in the imaginary hoax creation of a fake person who does not exist, but hard to reconstruct any actual connection or influence on Oswald's similar fictitious "Alek Hidell".

One other detail I noticed in the Gorightly book: that Eurasian woman Oswald was said to have been involved with while at Atsugi ... this book says she was teaching Oswald Russian. I wonder if that is true and if anyone knows if that woman was ever identified.  

Yeah it’s an interesting parallel but I don’t see any direct reference to Oswald without forcing one. Although he and Thornley were in conversation quite a bit so I could see a world in which it was a well known humorous anecdote told by Thornley or other marines involved that Oswald may have been aware of, but that’s as far as I’d go. 
 

Thornley in general is probably a less than reliable witness given his personality and excessive drug use over the years and passion for creating hoaxes and discord. In that book I believe he claims that E. Howard Hunt was also at the base at the time (I’ve never heard this before so not sure if there’s independent corroboration), and I know Thornley later claimed Hunt was influencing him as part of some Nazi based plot. I am very wary of Thornley but I think there can always be some truth in the fiction and chaos. 

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Martin Nee said:

Yeah it’s an interesting parallel but I don’t see any direct reference to Oswald without forcing one. Although he and Thornley were in conversation quite a bit so I could see a world in which it was a well known humorous anecdote told by Thornley or other marines involved that Oswald may have been aware of, but that’s as far as I’d go. 

I wondered about that too but from what I reconstructed the timeline won't work. Oswald was in Atsugi, then El Toro, in that order. Oswald and Thornley overlap at El Toro, only time they are in contact in the Marines, then Thornley goes to Japan, where the fake "Ravenhurst" Marine hoax happens, after any contact in the Marines with Oswald. So Oswald would not know of this in the Marines. Later, Thornley said he knew Oswald was in New Orleans when he was, and had thought of visiting him but never did, which of course was disputed. If there was any knowledge of Oswald of the Ravenhurst hoax Marine identification prank, it seems it could only happen in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans if Thornley or someone who also knew Thornley told Oswald about it, which is very tenuous.

Incidentally, on the idea of Oswald doing informant work related to the Dodd committee investigation of mail-order gun sales, consider this of Oswald in New Orleans from Alba of the Crescent City Garage:

"He recalled that on one occasion, the exact date of which he could not set, he had ordered a carbine from the National Rifle Association at a cost of $30.00. In discussing this, Oswald wanted to know if Alba could get one for him also. Mr. Alba stated he advised Oswald that he could get this gun at this price as a member of the National Rifle Association and each member was allowed to purchase only one. He continued that Oswald told him to go ahead and get the carbine and that he, Oswald, would make an offer on the gun that Mr. Alba could not afford to turn down." (FBI, 11/23/63, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4254#relPageId=28)

This from the frugal Oswald? Oswald who had no obvious use for a rifle (no known target range practice, no known gun club membership, no known hunting expeditions [after the one day with his brother on military leave that time])? And he already has a rifle. It looks like Oswald could be continuing informant/intelligence work in New Orleans related to mail-order gun purchasing. In this case, if this had gone through with Alba, could it show how ripe for abuse the mail-order system could be with his ability to get a rifle like that? Something like that? 

[Jean Ceulemans]

I have little knowledge on the Dodd comm. invest., but are there reports mentioning like "we had our assets mail-order guns"?

In order to proof their point they would need like at least a dozen or more cases.  Or known examples, or examples initiated by themselves.

Now I can see they would remove reports containing Hidell/LHO, but there would be others?

 

[Martin Nee]

33 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I wondered about that too but from what I reconstructed the timeline won't work. Oswald was in Atsugi, then El Toro, in that order. Oswald and Thornley overlap at El Toro, only time they are in contact in the Marines, then Thornley goes to Japan, where the fake "Ravenhurst" Marine hoax happens, after any contact in the Marines with Oswald. So Oswald would not know of this in the Marines. Later, Thornley said he knew Oswald was in New Orleans when he was, and had thought of visiting him but never did, which of course was disputed. If there was any knowledge of Oswald of the Ravenhurst hoax Marine identification prank, it seems it could only happen in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans if Thornley or someone who also knew Thornley told Oswald about it, which is very tenuous.

Incidentally, on the idea of Oswald doing informant work related to the Dodd committee investigation of mail-order gun sales, consider this of Oswald in New Orleans from Alba of the Crescent City Garage:

"He recalled that on one occasion, the exact date of which he could not set, he had ordered a carbine from the National Rifle Association at a cost of $30.00. In discussing this, Oswald wanted to know if Alba could get one for him also. Mr. Alba stated he advised Oswald that he could get this gun at this price as a member of the National Rifle Association and each member was allowed to purchase only one. He continued that Oswald told him to go ahead and get the carbine and that he, Oswald, would make an offer on the gun that Mr. Alba could not afford to turn down." (FBI, 11/23/63, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4254#relPageId=28)

This from the frugal Oswald? Oswald who had no obvious use for a rifle (no known target range practice, no known gun club membership, no known hunting expeditions [after the one day with his brother on military leave that time])? And he already has a rifle. It looks like Oswald could be continuing informant/intelligence work in New Orleans related to mail-order gun purchasing. In this case, if this had gone through with Alba, could it show how ripe for abuse the mail-order system could be with his ability to get a rifle like that? Something like that? 

I was actually just reading some of Weisberg’s unpublished manuscript of “Hoax” (which became “Case Open”) where in chapter (9 available on the hood college website) talks about Weisberg having witnesses independently identify photos of Kerry Thornley out of multiple options as most resembling the man who gave the name Osbourne and picked up the FPCC handbills at the Jones printing company. I think it is well within the realm of possibility that Oswald encountered Thornley in New Orleans, however if this has any relevance to the Hidell ID and it’s timeline I don’t know.

In regards to Alba, Henry Hurt in ReasonableDoubt  covers some interesting points about him and possible Dodd connections: 
- an unidentified man referring to himself as one of Albas “very best friends” showed up at 9AM on 11/23/63 while Alba wasn’t there and said he was there to borrow some magazines, and proceeded to browse through them and leave before the FBI got there. As of the printing of “reasonable doubt” the stranger is unidentified.

- the FBI lab found the June 1963 issue of American rifleman from albas garage had Oswald’s thumbprint and a Klein’s coupon torn from it that was later found in Oswald’s possession. But Klein’s later records showed the rifle had been ordered from the February issue

- the Dodd Comittee had hired unpredictable and unsavoury characters in the past including one who had gotten into violent altercations and been arrested. This same person was released after trying to bring machine guns, a pistol and ammunition through Hyannis Port while JFK was visiting there.

he makes the same point as you that it is odd Oswald often discussed getting weapons by mail with Alba when he supposedly already has two

[Greg Doudna]

Martin Nee, and Jean Ceulemans--

George Evica went into the Dodd Committee possible connection probably the most detail of anyone. See here: 

 

Two excerpts from that discussion, both sensational but ultimately disappointing in that never were sources or evidence shown. The first is George Evica:

"Beyond speculation, however, I have learned that according to two unimpeachable sources, Senator Thomas Dodd indeed caused at least one Mannlicher Carcano to be ordered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald (or in the name of "Alek Hidell") sometime in 1963."

(Evica died never having named those two sources, who remain unidentified to the present day.)

And the second is Charles Drago:

"I can state for the record that, when Professor Evica wrote "[W]ere Senator Thomas Dodd and his anti-communist allies made mute on any Dodd committee access to Lee Harvey Oswald in the aftermath of the JFK assassination?", he was not simply posing a question." 

(Unaware of any further elaboration from Drago on that.)

My comment:

Who knows what information or sources were underlying Evica's and Drago's claims uttered with utmost gravity yet never confirmed. In the second case, of the idea of Dodd committee access to Oswald after--after--the assassination, I can imagine only one obvious mechanism: the secret (unreported) visit of Alcohol, Tobacco and Tax Unit (precursor of today's ATF) agent Frank Ellsworth, to interview Oswald, on the afternoon of Nov 22, 1963.

He told Dick Russell in 1975 that he was called over by Fritz to interview Oswald regarding the rifle (https://ia601200.us.archive.org/27/items/nsia-OswaldLeeHarveyFalse/nsia-OswaldLeeHarveyFalse/Oswald Lee H False 103_text.pdf). There is nothing in extant records or notes of Oswald's interrogation about that. 

[Karl Kinaski]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:01 PM, Jean Ceulemans said:

And the infamous DR AJ HIDEEL vaccination card with the "brush in can" stamp 😀 btw: they still sell those

Judyth Baker  in her book ME AND LEE, quote: 

Quote

About  the  same  time, (mid June of 1963)  Lee  created  a
fake  health  card  for  himself  so  he’d  have vaccination  ‘proof’—  necessary  for  travel to  backward  countries.  His  vaccinations were up-to-date, thanks to Dr. Ochsner, but he  couldn’t  put  that  name  on  his  health card.  Instead,  he  used  the  fake  name  “Dr. A.J.  Hideel.”  There  was  that  name  again!
I’d seen it on the third floor at Banister’s, and a variation on a fake FPCC membership card Lee carried. “Hidell,” Lee told  me,  was  a  ‘project  name’  used  on  fake  ID’s  to  access  certain  funds. Further, he said he was not the only person using the name.

 

[Karl Kinaski]

Another angel, quote Jim Marrs AFTERWORD of Judyth Bakers book ME AND LEE:

Quote

I  have (Marrs)  interviewed  hundreds  of  witnesses,  like  Dallas  Police  officers who  told  me  of  a  mysterious  letter  they  had  received  about  two  weeks before the assassination from an A. J. Hidell (Lee Oswald’s alias) warning of  an  attempt  on  President  Kennedy’s  life  when  he  came  to  Dallas.  This letter disappeared when FBI agents descended on the Dallas police station following the assassination and scoured every conceivable file, locker and even motorcycle saddlebags. Since this letter is now missing and there is no proof it existed, I have not previously mentioned this story publicly.

 

 

Edited September 10 by Karl Kinaski

[Jean Ceulemans]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Martin Nee, and Jean Ceulemans--

George Evica went into the Dodd Committee possible connection probably the most detail of anyone. See here: 

 

Two excerpts from that discussion, both sensational but ultimately disappointing in that never were sources or evidence shown. The first is George Evica:

"Beyond speculation, however, I have learned that according to two unimpeachable sources, Senator Thomas Dodd indeed caused at least one Mannlicher Carcano to be ordered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald (or in the name of "Alek Hidell") sometime in 1963."

(Evica died never having named those two sources, who remain unidentified to the present day.)

And the second is Charles Drago:

"I can state for the record that, when Professor Evica wrote "[W]ere Senator Thomas Dodd and his anti-communist allies made mute on any Dodd committee access to Lee Harvey Oswald in the aftermath of the JFK assassination?", he was not simply posing a question." 

(Unaware of any further elaboration from Drago on that.)

My comment:

Who knows what information or sources were underlying Evica's and Drago's claims uttered with utmost gravity yet never confirmed. In the second case, of the idea of Dodd committee access to Oswald after--after--the assassination, I can imagine only one obvious mechanism: the secret (unreported) visit of Alcohol, Tobacco and Tax Unit (precursor of today's ATF) agent Frank Ellsworth, to interview Oswald, on the afternoon of Nov 22, 1963.

He told Dick Russell in 1975 that he was called over by Fritz to interview Oswald regarding the rifle (https://ia601200.us.archive.org/27/items/nsia-OswaldLeeHarveyFalse/nsia-OswaldLeeHarveyFalse/Oswald Lee H False 103_text.pdf). There is nothing in extant records or notes of Oswald's interrogation about that. 

Thank you Greg, that´s what I was looking for 👍

For some reason the search function on the EF isn´t doing it for me, rather frustrating as I know there is a huge amount of info to finf here.  I keep getting "wait x seconds" etc

 

[David Josephs]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:02 PM, Mark Ulrik said:

No CAL.6,5?

 

Thanks Mark,

Only 1 concern...  The lettering on the rifle in evidence is filled in with white as we see in the only image of it from the WCR.

Those dark letters would be tough to see on the dimly lit 6th floor.  I'd think.

DJ

 

[Karl Kinaski]

Isn't it odd that Oswald was never shown that rifle while in the DPD? They showed it Marina who denied knowing the rifle untill Monday 25th Nov. 1963 ... the same with the jacket they found in the parking lot in the vincinity of the Tippit killing ... an not odd: Why showing a dead man walking fake evidence bound to frame him for ever? 

[David Josephs]

22 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Isn't it odd that Oswald was never shown that rifle while in the DPD? They showed it Marina who denied knowing the rifle untill Monday 25th Nov. 1963 ... the same with the jacket they found in the parking lot in the vincinity of the Tippit killing ... an not odd: Why showing a dead man walking fake evidence bound to frame him for ever? 

His trying on the jacket would have made some sense, no?  It was obviously way too big.

How did he assemble the rifle, when and where? Where did he leave it after he gets to work.  When did he retrieve it prior to 12:15?

How did he know JFK was 20-25,minutes late when all info prior pointed to his passing the TSBD prior to 12:00 and the luncheon starting at 12:30.  The motorcade was supposed to leave at 11:30 and did not until 11:50... would Oswald have known this?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

And why wan't he charged with attempted murder of a police officer in the theater?  If he did actually pull a gun and try to shoot McDonald.

Same why the Aussie girls were not shown a photo, or Duran not being shown the application photo, or Bowen.  Easier to simply avoid it.

 

[Greg Doudna]

8 hours ago, David Josephs said:

His trying on the jacket would have made some sense, no?  It was obviously way too big.

Not so. It was size "M". Oswald wore size "M" on some clothes as well as size "S". The evidence is a photo of the light-maroon dress shirt of Oswald in a color photo obtained by Pat Speer, which shows the label, size M, which can be seen on Pat's website. It is true that there was no known report or known evidence of an "M" size clothing known for Oswald before Pat Speer obtained and published on his website that photo. And it is true Marina said Oswald wore size "S" with no mention of "M". But the fact: Oswald did have that shirt in size "M", meaning he did wear some clothes in size "M". I don't think the off-white light tan CE 162 jacket was Oswald's gray jacket (because Buell Frazier said Oswald’s gray jacket he wore to work a lot was light flannel-woollike in material, gray in color, and that Oswald wore it the morning of Nov 22 rather than newly put it on at the rooming house, among other reasons). But the size “M” is not one of the reasons that can be cited against it. 

Edited September 10 by Greg Doudna

[David Josephs]

19 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don't think the off-white light tan CE 162 jacket was Oswald's gray jacket

Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did---if I did, I don't remember it.
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.  

variants or less commonly shirtsleeves or shirtsleeved 
: being without a coat

Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it---the shirt, or do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember---I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?
Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, OSWALD only had the 2 jackets which are in evidence.. 162 and 163 - this one and the dark blue very puffy jacket.

If he wore his light-grey colored one to work... then this - via WESTBROOK - is a plant.  

Where is the light grey jacket Wesley says he wore that morning?  The dark blue jacket CE163, was found at the TSBD in the following days.  And he came home without a jacket.

Any ideas about where his jacket went?

And yes, it being "M" does not remove it from consideration... other items do.  Still would have like to see it on him..  FWIW, There is not a single photo of Harvey wearing that, or any jacket for that matter.