The Odio Incident

[John Simkin]

Warren Report: Testimony of Sylvia Odio (Part 2)

Mr. Liebeler: Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.

Mrs. Odio: Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could. Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knew that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.

Mr. Liebeler: Because of what now?

Mrs. Odio: Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some America friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me. It either was a Thursday or 'a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.

Like I said, the doorbell rang .and she went over--she had a housecoat on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them ?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans. have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know.

So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We are members of JURE."

This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.

And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.

Mr. Liebeler: Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?

Mrs. Odio: The American had not said a word yet.

Mr. Liebeler: Which one of the Cubans?

Mrs. Odio: The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me toll you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo.

Mr. Liebeler: He did most of the talking?

Mrs. Odio: He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?

Mrs. Odio: I had a chain.

Mr. Liebeler: Was the chain fastened?

Mrs. Odio: No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American.

He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorry to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.

I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

Mr. Liebeler: Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

Mr. Liebeler: But she didn't remember it?

Mrs. Odio: No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.

Mr. Liebeler: Did your sister see the men?

Mrs. Odio: She saw the three of them.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you discussed this with her since that time?

Mrs. Odio: I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.

Mr. Liebeler: Did she think it was Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

Mr. Liebeler: What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?

Mrs. Odio: No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.

Mr. Liebeler: Almost to his elbows?

Mrs. Odio: No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he have a tie?

Mrs. Odio: No tie.

Mr. Liebeler: Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?

Mrs. Odio: He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.

Mr. Liebeler: You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?

Mrs. Odio: She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.

This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.

This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, "Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise. some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?"

Mr. Liebeler: You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name?

Mrs. Odio: His name is Antonio.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez Alvareda?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Who is he?

Mrs. Odio: He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December. I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, working hard.

And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I said, "Do you know Eugeino?" This is the war name for_ _ _ _.That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.

Mr. Liebeler: Who did you ask this?

Mrs. Odio: I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, became I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?"

And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never been to Cuba."

And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes."

This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, "I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me."

And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know which one of the men was driving?

Mrs. Odio: The tall one, Leopoldo.

Mr. Liebeler: Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.

They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.

Mr. Liebeler: But they did not indicate where they were going?

Mrs. Odio: The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything."

And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated filter the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.

And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. Odio: He never mentioned his last name. He alway. s referred to the American or Leon.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he mention his last name the night before?

Mrs. Odio: Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.

Mr. Liebeler: But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon?

Mrs. Odio: On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?

Mrs. Odio: At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.

I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose.

My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination?

Mrs. Odio: This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."

[John Simkin]

Warren Report: Testimony of Sylvia Odio (Part 3)

Mr. Liebeler: You have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he?

Mrs. Odio: He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I gave the names of the Cubans.

Mr. Liebeler: The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. Odio: He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone there in. Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends."

Mr. Liebeler: I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.

Mrs. Odio: Yes, okay.

Mr. Liebeler: The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read that translation to us?

Mrs. Odio: "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not even in Dallas. So do not establish any friendships until you give me their full names again."

Mr. Liebeler: Does he say their "full names" in there?

Mrs. Odio: Their full names again, which means I had given their war names.

Mr. Liebeler: So you must have given the name Leopold?

Mrs. Odio: He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says. We are 10 brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both of them.

I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage. We have been, were a very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after I divorced.

He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or something like that. You can probably have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation.

Mr. Liebeler: This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that?

Mrs. Odio: The capital of Isle of Pines.

Mr. Liebeler: Your father is a prisoner there?

Mr. Liebeler: Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and forth?

Mrs. Odio: One letter a month, on one side.

Mr. Liebeler: I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men?

Mrs. Odio: They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it, like he does. You can see how perfectly he writes a letter.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these men come in late September. You previously stated that you couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late September. Would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that date in your mind?

Mrs. Odio: I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or Friday, depending on when I called her.

I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted 'her to start packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, you did move?

Mrs. Odio: We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff.

Mr. Liebeler: What was the address of the apartment in which you lived before you moved to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. Odio: Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number--1024 Magellan Circle. It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the number; I think it is.

Mr. Liebeler: In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments at the time these men came to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans.

Mr. Liebeler: You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of October and moved to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. Odio: That's right exactly.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your apartment before the first of October?

Mrs. Odio: Before the first of October.

Mr. Liebeler: It would have been sometime toward the end of September, because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. Odio: The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping me. She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie?

Mrs. Odio: We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood Apartments?

Mrs. Odio: No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and you lose it if you move before 6 months.

Mr. Liebeler: Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months?

Mrs. Odio: No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.

That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.

I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called Eugenio long distance from Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler: When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back from Puerto Rico?

Mrs. Odio: I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny Martin.

Mr. Liebeler: So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and I called-two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda.

So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to be interviewed by some high official.

Mr. Liebeler: But he was going to come by Dallas first?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. So I went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, to get my children, which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas. And this is when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood Apartments.

Mr. Liebeler: You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico with your children?

Mrs. Odio: I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff.

Mr. Liebeler: You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before you went to Puerto Rico?

Mrs. Odio: Oh, yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that to meet you?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: How many times have you met-with Eugenio here in Dallas?

Mrs. Odio: Once.

Mr. Liebeler: That was in June of 1963?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men came to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had come to the apartment with Leon?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know Father McKann?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you remember that he called you on the telephone?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; he did call me on the telephone.

Mr. Liebeler: On April 30, 1964?

Mrs. Odio: The date, I don't recall. Probably.

Mr. Liebeler: It was approximately the end of April or early May of 1964 when he called you from New Orleans?

Mrs. Odio: From New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you remember discussing this whole question with him at that time?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind.

Mr. Liebeler: What did you tell him?

Mrs. Odio: I told him that everything that I knew I had already told him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that could be important to you.

Mr. Liebeler: The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work that day, isn't that correct?

Mrs. Odio: That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane. I don't know if it belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned about it.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you tell him the names of the men who were there?

Mrs. Odio: I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew.

Mr. Liebeler: You told him one was Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: But you did not tell him that you could identify the other man as Eugenio?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: You did not tell him that?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, I have a report before me of an interview with Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now that that is not so?

Mrs. Odio: No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was not Eugenio.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to you in June?

Mrs. Odio: I think I discussed it with him, yes.

Mr. Liebeler: During that telephone conversation?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; I think I discussed it.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?

Mrs. Odio: Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: And I shook hands with him.

Mr. Liebeler: That is also what you told Agent Hoary when he interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his report?

Mrs. Odio: Oh, yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day, that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was considered to be loco?

Mrs. Odio: That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I could get men into Cuba. That is what he thought, which is not true.

When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of loco."

When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation he was trying to play it safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was cleverly done.

Mr. Liebeler: So he actually played both sides of the fence?

Mrs. Odio: That's right, both sides of the fence.

Mr. Liebeler: Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed Forces?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: What did he tell you about that?

Mrs. Odio: He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he. tell you that Leon could help in the underground activities in which you were presumably engaged?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since it happened?

Mrs. Odio: No, I have not even contacted him.

Mr. Liebeler: Is your sister Annie in Dallas now?

Mrs. Odio: She is coming now the end of July.

Mr. Liebeler: She is not here now?

Mrs. Odio: No, she is coming from Florida. She is coming to live with me. She spent 6 months with my brother.

Mr. Liebeler: Can you tell us what her address is in Florida?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. She is in--wait 1 second--Southwest 82d Place, Miami, Fla.

Mr. Liebeler: How old were these two men that were with Leon?

Mrs. Odio: One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, I can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one of them.

Mr. Liebeler: Which one was that?

Mrs. Odio: But the other one was young. That was the tall one.

Mr. Liebeler: That was not Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Alentado was younger?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: How old was he, would you say?

Mrs. Odio: About 34, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler: Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an opinion about that when you saw him at the time?

Mrs. Odio: No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I would say he was a young man; yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him that day in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time.

Mr. Liebeler: What age would you establish you thought about it?

Mrs. Odio: Oh, 34 or 35.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you read the newspapers and watched television since the assassination and observed Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: I read some of it.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you read how old he was?

Mrs. Odio: I don't even know what age he is.

Mr. Liebeler: About how tall was he?

Mrs. Odio: He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am.

Mr. Liebeler: How tall are you?

Mrs. Odio: I am 5 feet 6 inches.

Mr. Liebeler: So you think he was about 5 feet 10?

Mrs. Odio: Probably.

Mr. Liebeler: About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man?

Mrs. Odio: He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on him, like it was borrowed.

Mr. Liebeler.

Like it was borrowed from somebody else?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of hung loose.

Mr. Liebeler: Didn't fit well?

Mrs. Odio: It didn't fit.

[John Simkin]

Warren Report: Testimony of Sylvia Odio (Part 4)

Mr. Liebeler: Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement here in Dallas?

Mrs. Odio: Students Revolutionary Council, not at all.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know any representatives of the DRE?

Mrs. Odio: I just knew one.

Mr. Liebeler: Who was that?

Mrs. Odio: Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler: Oswald, you mean?

Mrs. Odio: Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know Carlos?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos.

Mr. Liebeler: When did you meet him?

Mrs. Odio: I think it was a long time ago in Cuba, or I was introduced to him.

Mr. Liebeler: You have never met him here in the United States?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between Bringuier and Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a judge. This was true.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you read about that in the newspapers?

Mrs. Odio: No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information we heard from New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler: How much of your family are living in New Orleans?

Mrs. Odio: I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin.

Mr. Liebeler: Which one of them told you about this?

Mrs. Odio: I think it was my uncle.

Mr. Liebeler: Were you there at that time?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: In New Orleans?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: What is your uncle's name?

Mrs. Odio: Agustin Guitar.

Mr. Liebeler: When was this that you discussed this with him?

Mrs. Odio: February.

Mr. Liebeler: In February of 1964?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an operation.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know Emanuel Salvat?

Mrs. Odio: I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I don't know him.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, Salvat?

Mrs. Odio: If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to some organization.

Mr. Liebeler: You don't remember which one?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Would it be the DRE?

Mrs. Odio: I can't say for sure.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera?

Mrs. Odio I have heard about her, too.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you have any idea how these three men came to your apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: They were coming from New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler: They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cuban's in Dallas. Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will give you information enough. They will tell you where they live and what their phone number is and how to contact them.

Mr. Liebeler: But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came by your address?

Mrs. Odio: I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, can you remember anything else about the incident when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about?

Mrs. Odio: No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am trying real hard to remember everything I can.

Mr. Liebeler: Now is there anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this whole affair?

Mrs. Odio: No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is real facts of the thing, that really happened.

Mr. Liebeler: Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: The only time.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him other times?

Mrs. Odio: No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea who called the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler: About what?

Mrs. Odio: You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact.

Mr. Liebeler: Why not?

Mrs. Odio: I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was important.

Mr. Liebeler: Who do you think called the FBI?

Mrs. Odio: Mrs. Connell, I think.

Mr. Liebeler: When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. You know

Mrs. Odio: how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to see me.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how they came to see you?

Mrs. Odio: I never talked to him about it. I decided not to. mention anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone number.

Mr. Liebeler: You gave that to the FBI?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it.

Mr. Liebeler: You say that because you asked these men if they had been sent by Alentado and they said no?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: How do you know her?

Mrs. Odio: It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister was would improve me, which it did, of course. And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my sister.

Mr. Liebeler: Which one?

Mrs. Odio: Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to come here to Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler: Mrs. Connell?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruck. I was here 4 months before I went to get my children. We were close, like I said.

Mr. Liebeler: What makes you think she called the FBI about this?

Mrs. Odio: I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I was the only person--she was the only person I told.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, "I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was him that called the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to whom he had spoken?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You are sure you never told her that?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings?

Mrs. Odio: Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas, and she went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is.

Mr. Liebeler: Is that the same man as Johnny Martin?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: A different one?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Who is he?

Mrs. Odio: Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a Prisoner in Castro Cuba," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.

Mr. Liebeler: Mrs. Connell?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.

Mr. Liebeler: Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: About this?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the FBI was?

Mrs. Odio: He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He always told me the truth.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have hallucinations and you had probably not made this up?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. Other people make it up, but--

Mr. Liebeler: Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question with some representatives of the President's Commission?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did he tell you what that conversation was about?

Mrs. Odio: He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid.

Mr. Liebeler: Are you Still seeing Dr. Einspruch?

Mrs. Odio: No; I am through with therapy. He left.

Mr. Liebeler: He is no longer in Dallas?

Mrs. Odio: No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald in more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting?

Mrs. Odio: No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before except the day he came to the door.

Mr. Liebeler: You have never seen him since?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You told us before that you had a fainting spell after you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please?

Mrs. Odio: Well, 'I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I would pass out for hours, and .this was part of my emotional problems. I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I can, not deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. Odio: No; when I started thinking about it.

Mr. Liebeler: Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?

Mrs. Odio: Can I say something off the record?

Mr. Liebeler: Yes. (Witness talks off the record.)

Mr. Liebeler: At this point let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: And you thought of that before you had the fainting spell?

Mrs. Odio: Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive things very well.

Mr. Liebeler: What kind of thinking?

Mrs. Odio: He says I have tremendous intuition about things and psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out.

Mr. Liebeler: Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out?

Mrs. Odio: No, sir. It was only the connection.

Mr. Liebeler: You had made the connection in your mind between these three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name prior to the time of your passing out?

Mrs. Odio: No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did not know any name until that night.

Mr. Liebeler: What time did you pass out?

Mrs. Odio: I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before I o'clock, because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out back in the warehouse.

Mr. Liebeler: Just after you left the office?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right after?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did these men indicate that they had an come from New Orleans together?

Mrs. Odio: I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but they had been in New Orleans, or had just come from New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler: Would you recognize these men again if you saw their pictures, do you think?

Mrs. Odio: I think I could recognize one of them.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you think they definitely took like Cubans?

Mrs. Odio: Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean.

Mr. Liebeler: When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. Odio: It was immediately.

Mr. Liebeler: As soon as you saw his picture?

Mrs. Odio: Immediately; I was so sure.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you have any doubt about it?

Mrs. Odio: I don't have any doubts.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you have any doubt about it then?

Mrs. Odio: I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

Mr. Liebeler: Would you recognize this man's voice?

Mrs. Odio: I don't know. I am not sure.

Mr. Liebeler: I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?

Mrs. Odio: That is Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: With the X?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: I specifically call your attention to the man standing to Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets.

Mrs. Odio: Does he have some glasses on?

Mr. Liebeler: The man that I just described?

Mrs. Odio: Does he have any glasses?

Mr. Liebeler: Let me see the picture.

Mrs. Odio: He has the same build that that man has in the back.

Mr. Liebeler: He has the same build?

Mrs. Odio: A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple].

Mr. Liebeler: You are pointing to this man here?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some way?

Mrs. Odio: One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick hair.

Mr. Liebeler: You are describing Leopoldo?

Mrs. Ohio: He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here.

Mr. Liebeler: Like sort of a bald spot in his front?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like one of the men that was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: That's right. That height and that tall.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand.

Mrs. Odio: He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the back looks something like this man I am telling you about.

Mr. Liebeler: But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in the picture other than Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: No; that's correct.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with Oswald in the apartment.

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say?

Mrs. Odio: No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that picture.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, you are referring--

Mrs. Odio: I am referring to this man now.

Mr. Liebeler: You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back is toward the camera?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: What about the man immediately behind Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: No; he was taller than that.

Mr. Liebeler: Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind Oswald in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in Bringuier Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. Odio: No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives trim a slimmer look.

Mr. Liebeler: You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white shirt?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; he came with a white shirt.

Mr. Liebeler: I am having trouble, because I first thought that this man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1, but it appears that that is not so?

Mrs. Odio: No; this man is this man in the picture.

Mr. Liebeler: So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B?

Mrs. Odio: Exactly.

Mr. Liebeler: And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the man who was in the apartment?

Mrs. Odio: He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked.

Mr. Liebeler: So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not look like the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark 3 in ,both pictures; is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his hand on his face.

Mr. Liebeler: You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in, Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar?

Mrs. Odio: Somewhat familiar; yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, I Show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mrs. Odio: Who is this man?

Mr. Liebeler: You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you?

Mrs. Odio. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the color of that short man. He did not look real white.

Mr. Liebeler: Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental?

Mrs. Odio: Is an oriental?

Mr. Liebeler: I don't know. Does it look like it to you?

Mrs. Odio: I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see.

Mr. Liebeler: When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They all seem to be the same man, don't they?

Mrs. Odio: I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he?

Mr. Liebeler: Well, it looks like it; doesn't it?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: He did?

Mrs. Odio: Didn't wear them all the time.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in Exhibit No. 453-A?

Mrs. Odio. [Pointing.]

Mr. Liebeler: You indicate the man with the green X over his head as being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he looked that day.

Mr. Liebeler: In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: That's correct.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B Was the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: Well, if it is not, it is his twin.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. I and ask you if you recognize that man.

Mrs. Odio: That is Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: Is that the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Are you sure?

Mrs. Odio: He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.

Mr. Liebeler: I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that looks like the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: That is not the expression he had, but he has the same forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved thing that got me that day.

Mr. Liebeler: Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man in that picture appear to be Somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; I think that is him.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.

Mr. Liebeler: We have to put the pictures down on the record, because when somebody reads the record-- you say that he--

Mrs. Odio: He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance.

Mr. Liebeler: I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who was in your apartment.

I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But I would like to have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Why. don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the Secret Service and find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and I will tell You what time to come back.

Mrs. Odio: Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back any special time?

Mr. Liebeler: I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels.

Mrs. Odio: Before I leave?

Mr. Liebeler: I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of September; is that correct? Or can you. remember? Is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak Cliff?

Mrs. Odio: The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous weekend.

Mr. Liebeler: I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the last day of September was Monday.

Mrs. Odio: That is probably the day I moved.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you say that you also started working at a new job that same day?

Mrs. Odio: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: But you had been working on the day that you did move?

Mrs. Odio: I started working initially the 15th of September, because it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let me see what day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started working at National Chemsearch.

(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Liebeler: This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. Odum was the man that interviewed you.

Mrs. Odio: I remember. He looked very familiar.

Mr. Liebeler: Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Mrs. Odio: The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday.

Mr. Liebeler: Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: That's correct.

Mr. Liebeler: And you also testified, according to my recollection, that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that correct?

Mrs. Odio: Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure.

Mr. Liebeler: Would you work on Saturday?

Mrs. Odio: No; but he could have called me Saturday. But they would have come Thursday or Friday.

Mr. Liebeler: Thursday or Friday?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Because you had been at work on the day they came?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you?

Mrs. Odio: I don't recall that.

Mr. Liebeler: You can't recall that?

Mrs. Odio: No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler: I show you a picture which depicts the same individual that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man.

Mrs. Odio: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio: No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest?

Mr. Liebeler: So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky?

Mrs. Odio: He was not as big as this man.

Mr. Liebeler: Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: Is that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back spot on his head?

Mrs. Odio: It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice that.

Mr. Liebeler: This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?

Mrs. Odio: He was thin--about 165 pounds.

Mr. Liebeler: How tall was he, about?

Mrs. Odio: He was about 3 1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes.

Mr. Liebeler: And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: Shorter than Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler: About how much, could you guess?

Mrs. Odio: Five feet seven, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler: So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. Odio: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: He weighed about how much, would you say?

Mrs. Odio: 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.

Mrs. Liebeler: Was it pock marked, would you say?

Mrs. Odio: No; it was like it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.

Mr. Liebeler: Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight.

[John Simkin]

Fabian Escalante, Cuban Officials and JFK Historians Conference (7th December, 1995)

They were going to demand that somebody would be a part of that new government to be established in Cuba and who would be better than Manolo Ray, who used to be a minister in that government. Manolo Ray, that was a person that didn't have good relations with the CIA. He was a social democrat. And it turns out to be that Silvia Odio belongs to the same group. So I could think that Oswald's presence, and Emilio Cordo might have some link to some involvement of JURE? as Castro agents... who is a Castro agent that later would kill Kennedy. So I think all these episodes have to be seen related one to another. For instance, I think the same way you... some of you do that Oswald was taken to a trap from the very beginning. But he was penetrating a Castro group that wanted to kill Kennedy. But I don't think that Veciana had anything to do with it. I think that people that had to do with that, are people in the DRE, but here I am just... using some technical... because when you are going to carry out an operation as complex as this one, you cannot put all your money in one single horse. You have to use different ways in order not to have any mistakes. And obviously, the DRE was in the whole plot against Cuba.

[Tim Gratz]

I found this post on alt.assassination.jfk:

Summaries of /quotations from FBI documents related to the subject.

How would this fit in with claims that Bernardo de Torres was one

of Silvia Odio's visitors?

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10032

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-1

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : HQ

TO : MM

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 10/07/1963

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; MARIO BALDATI

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

COMMENTS : MEMO;

This is a memo from FBI HQ to the Miami office

instructing them to check out the information in

an enclosed "CIA Information Report dated 9/27/63

captioned 'Plan to Bomb Ship.'"

"Check with CIA locally to determine if it has

operational interest in this matter. If CIA has

no operational interest, identify subject, check

logical sources, informants and individuals in

position to know for any indication that there is

substance to allegation. [...]"

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10030

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-1

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : CIA

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 09/27/1963

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; PLAN TO BOMB SHIP

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

COMMENTS : RPT

This is the CIA "Information Report" dated 27 September 1963.

It indicates the information was acquired in "UNITED STATES, MIAMI"

on "24-25 SEPTEMBER 1963". From the body of the report:

1. DAVID BROWN, A FREE-LANCE PILOT, SAYS THAT HE WAS

APPROACHED ABOUT 23 SEPTEMBER 1963 BY ONE OF A GROUP OF PILOTS

WHO MAKE THEIR HEADQUARTERS AROUND MIAMI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT,

WHO REQUESTED BROWN TO CHARTER A B-25 AIRCRAFT ON BEHALF OF THE

GROUP. HE EXPLAINED THAT THE AIRCRAFT WAS TO BE USED FOR BOMB-

ING A SHIP THEN EN ROUTE FROM EUROPE, WHICH WAS SCHEDULED TO

ARRIVE IN CUBA ABOUT THE END OF SEPTEMBER OR 1 OCTOBER. THE

PILOT ALSO ASKED BROWN WHETHER IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE TO CHARTER

A C-46 AIRCRAFT TO TRANSPORT WEAPONS TO CENTRAL AMERICA; HE

ADDED THAT THIS PROJECT WAS CONNECTED WITH THE ACTIVITIES OF

LUIS SOMOZA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF NICARAGUA, AND THAT IT HAD

THE APPROVAL OF THE UNITED STATES STATE DEPARTMENT.

[page 2]

2. THE PILOT WHO MADE THE CONTACT WITH BROWN IS NAMED

MARIO BALDATI [sic]. HE IS AN ARGENTINE, RESIDENT AT 1231 SOUTHWEST

15TH STREET, MIAMI.

3. BROWN SAID HE LEARNED THAT WHEN AND IF THE B-25 WAS

OBTAINED, IT WOULD BE FLOWN TO PUERTO CABEZAS, NICARAGUA. THE

MISSION WAS TO BE LAUNCHED FROM THERE. BALDATI ALLEGED THAT

HIS GROUP HAS BOMBS AND RACKS, AND THAT AN AIRCRAFT IS THEIR

ONLY REQUIREMENT.

4. WHEN BALDATI CLAIMED THAT THE MISSION HAD BEEN CLEARED

WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT, BROWN TOLD HIM THAT HE WOULD BE MORE

WILLING TO COOPERATE IF THIS WERE ACTUALLY THE CASE. BALDATI

ASKED WHETHER BROWN WOULD TAKE PART IF STATE DEPARTMENT APPROVAL

WERE WITHHELD, AND BROWN REPLIED, "WELL, IT WOULD COST YOU MORE."

5. HEADQUARTERS COMMENT: THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS NOT

GRANTED ANY SUCH APPROVAL.

6. FIELD DISSEM: NONE.

END OF MESSAGE

<end of excerpts>

Luis Somoza appeared at the National American Legion Convention

in Miami Beach on Sept 18, 1963.

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10033

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-2

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : MM

TO : HQ

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 12/16/1963

PAGES : 4

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI BRIEBA

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS : 1A

CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

OPENING CRITERIA : APPROVAL OF CIA

COMMENTS : MEMO

This a memo from the Miami office to FBI HQ sent along with an LHM.

Excerpts follow:

Title Changed to reflect the complete name of subject according

to Spanish usage, that is MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI BRIEBA, and also the

name by which he is generally known, MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI, spelled

with double T.

[...]

On November 22, 1963, [redacted], CIA Agent at Miami, Florida,

advised he had been the contact of free lance pilot DAVID BROWN,

and that after the original allegation was received from BROWN the

latter was instructed to immediately contact CIA in the event

further developments took place in the alleged plan of subject

BALDATTI. Mr. [redacted] stated he had not been contacted again

by BROWN and he was relatively certain that the alleged plan had

not further materialized, at least as far as BROWN would be concerned.

Mr. [redacted] advised that his office had no objection to contact of

BROWN by FBI, Miami.

[...]

<end of excerpts>

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10034

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-2

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : MM

TO : HQ

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 12/16/1963

PAGES : 8

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI BRIEBA

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

COMMENTS : LHM;

This is the LHM date Dec 16, 1963. INS records

indicated that Mario Baldatti "had been issued a

United States resident visa at Buenos Aires, Argentina

on March 21, 1962, and had arrived at Miami on April 10,

1962." He had been an aircraft radio navigator and had

visited the U.S. since 1958. "MM T-2", identified as

the local draft board in the previous document, indicated

Baldatti "was employed in an import-export business known

as the Maru Trading Corporation, at 404 Pan American Bank

Building, Miami, since April, 1962." Baldatti was

acquainted with Ruben Aversa and Richard Carpenter.

Further inquiry indicated that the Maru Trading

Corporation "had closed its office in the Pan American Bank

Building about five months ago."

Pages 5-7 of this LHM are an interview with pilot

David W. Brown conducted by Special Agent James J. O'Connor

on 12/5/63 at Miami. Brown said in 1961 Mario Baldatti

leased a B-25 from Brown which was flown to South America

and never returned. The lease was never fully paid.

In the summer of 1963, Brown ran into Baldatti at a car

dealership where Baldatti was working as a salesman. In

September, 1963, Baldatti arranged a meeting with Brown.

"Mr. BROWN continued that when he met BALDATTI at the

latter's house, three Cuban men were present, all of

whom appeared to be well educated and all of whom spoke

English. He said BALDATTI, however, appeared to be

spokesman for the group and outlined to BROWN a plan

involving the bombing of a ship carrying cargo to Cuba.

"Mr. BROWN stated that whereas he could understand

such a plot on the part of anti-CASTRO Cubans, he

formed the opinion that BALDATTI, an Argentine, with

no personal interest in the Cuban situation, was

interested primarily in making some quick and easy money

as a go-between for the Cubans.

"Mr. BROWN stated that this meeting at BALDATTI's

residence was followed a few days later by a second

meeting taking place in approximately the last part

of September, 1963, and again the same three Cubans and

BALDATTI were present. At this time it was indicated

to BROWN that the proposed target was not necessarily a

ship but anything they could hit in Cuba. It was also

indicated to BROWN that the aircraft which BALDATTI and

his associates desired to charter could be a C-46 type

aircraft or any plane that could carry the bombs. Also,

it was explained that the plane was to be delivered to

Costa Rica rather than to Nicaragua.

"Mr. BROWN stated the operation, as explained by

BALDATTI and the latter's associates, did not 'ring

true' in that the plan seemed to call only for a one

way flight, that is one in which the plane could not

carry a normal load and sufficient gasoline to fly round

trip from Costa Rica to Cuba, and furthermore, BROWN,

by his own experience in flying through Latin America,

was convinced Costa Rica would not permit such an

operation.

"An additional conflict in the alleged plan, according

to Mr. BROWN, was that the group claimed to have its own

pilots who had experience with Cuban airlines and Cuban

military planes, and yet BROWN was requested to check out

the pilots in the operation of the plane to be chartered.

"Mr. BROWN stated the three Cubans who were present at

BALDATTI's house were not pilots themselves. It appeared

that BALDATTI, acting as a middleman for the Cubans, had

convinced them he had the means whereby they could engage in

an operation against the Castro regime.

"Mr. BROWN stated he did not learn the names of any of

the Cubans involved. He said he was told by BALDATTI and

the Cubans that he would be recontacted concerning this

matter but no further contact has occurred.

"Mr. BROWN described the three Cuban associates of

BALDATTI as follows:

"#1 - about 28 years old, 6'1" tall, good looking, well

educated.

"#2 - about 40, 5'7", pock-marked face, sandy gray hair.

"#3 - about 38, 5'9" to 5'10", heavy build, wore Cuban

style glasses."

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10036

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-3

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : MM

TO : HQ

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 04/09/1964

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI BRIEBA

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

COMMENTS : MEMO

This a memo from the Miami office to FBI HQ sent along with an LHM.

"The title is being marked changed to reflect the addition of

BERNARDO GONZALEZ DE TORRES ALVAREZ as a subject. DE TORRES stated

he is generally known as BERNARDO G. DE TORRES.

[...]

"In view of the lack of evidence that the subjects advanced

in their plan for bombing of ship to Cuba beyond preliminary

discussion and inasmuch as all known involved persons have

been interviewed without developing any evidence of neutrality

violation beyond the discussion, no further investigation is

contemplated by Miami."

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10037

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-3

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : MM

TO : HQ

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 04/09/1964

PAGES : 11

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; MARIO OSCAR BALDATTI BRIEBA

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/16/1997

COMMENTS : LHM

This is the LHM. Ruben Aversa was interviewed on

March 23, 1964. He stated that he and Mario Baldatti

had worked for Transcontinental Airlines, an Argentine

firm which dissolved in 1961. He and Baldatti then set

up the Maru Trading Corporation which closed in April 1963.

Aversa had no knowledge of Baldatti's contacts with

Cubans.

Pages 3-7 are an interview of Mario Baldatti conducted by

James J. O'Connor on 3-25-64 at Miami. Baldatti "voluntarily

appeared" at the FBI office after Aversa told Baldatti about

the FBI interest in him.

"BALDATTI stated that during the summer of 1963, he was

employed at as an automobile salesman for the Dumas Milner

Chevrolet Company in Miami and in this connection, became

acquainted with MIGUEL ESCOTO, a car salesman for the

Abraham Ford Company, Miami. He said ESCOTO introduced him

to ESCOTO's brother-in-law, ARMANDO CALIS MENENDEZ, who is

a member of the 2506 Brigade which engaged in the Cuban

invasion of April 1961. He said CALIS on learning that

BALDATTI had been a radio navigator, suggested that BALDATTI

give instruction to members of the Brigade on such subjects

as communications and navigation.

"BALDATTI stated that this approach by CALIS occurred

about the same time that LUIS SOMOZA, former President of

Nicaragua, was visiting in the United States and reports

were appearing in the public press to the effect that

SOMOZA was supporting the establishment of a new anti-

CASTRO training operation in Nicaragua. BALDATTI said that

although no official announcement gave indication of U. S.

support to SOMOZA's offer of a training camp, the general

interpretation of the offer by Cuban exiles was that the

plan had U. S. support. BALDATTI explained that it was

under these circumstances that he agreed to give lectures

to members of the 2506 Brigade. He said he was introduced

to BERNARDO DE TORRES, who held an officer's position in the

Brigade.

"BALDATTI continued that as matters developed he never

gave any lectures primarily because of the lack of radio

equipment and training matter and because the officers of

the Brigade indicated they would postpone the lectures

until the prospect of a training camp in Nicaragua was

resolved.

"According to BALDATTI, BERNARDO DE TORRES about

September 1963, asked BALDATTI if he knew any pilot

at Miami who could obtain a bomber-type airplane for

use by the Brigade. BALDATTI said he again received

the impression that this request was related to the

establishment of a camp in Nicaragua through the

cooperation of LUIS SOMOZA and the U. S. Government.

He said he, therefore, made contact with a free-lance

pilot, DAVID BROWN, of Miami, Florida, whom he had known

as of 1961, when he, BALDATTI, was flying for the

independent company, Transcontinental Airlines in

Argentina.

"BALDATTI said he contacted BROWN and the latter

agreed to assist the Cuban associates of BALDATTI in

the matter of obtaining or ferrying an aircraft providing

the operation had the approval of the U. S. Government

and not otherwise. BALDATTI said it was then BERNARDO

DE TORRES requested BALDATTI to arrange a meeting in

BALDATTI's house at which the matter could be discussed.

"BALDATTI recalled that some time during September

1963, during the evening hours, pilot DAVID BROWN and

BERNARDO DE TORRES and two other members of the 2506

Brigade, whose names he could not recall, met at his

home and discussed the possibility of BROWN's obtaining

a B-25 or B-26 type airplane. BALDATTI said BROWN informed

the Cubans that it would be impossible to obtain this

class plane since the Cubans were interested in such a

plane in condition to carry out a bombing operation.

According to BALDATTI, the Cubans spoke about using the

plane for bombing a ship but this purpose was not definite

since they mentioned distances which would have

been beyond such a plane's flying radius. BALDATTI said

the plane was to be first taken to Nicaragua and the

mission flown from that country. He said the Cubans

did not want BROWN to participate in the bombing mission

but apparently wanted him only to obtain the plane and

possibly ferry it to Central America. He said they were

vague as to whether they wanted to rent of buy such a plane

and BROWN discussed with them the use of a regular cargo

type plane such as a C-46, since the Cubans indicated to

him that their primary interest was in flying to supplies

to Nicaragua.

"BALDATTI stated that there was only one meeting held

in his home between the Cubans and BROWN and the meeting

concluded with the advice by BROWN that when they knew

what they wanted and had the necessary authority from the

United States Government to ship supplies to Central

America he would be agreeable to assist them.

"BALDATTI stated that the Cubans never recontacted

him to arrange a second meeting with BROWN and he

presumes that the plan was dropped. He said he saw

BERNARDO DE TORRES once or twice following the meeting

of September 1963, and when he asked DE TORRES about the

plans involving the plane, DE TORRES told him contacts

were being made in Washington. BALDATTI stated he has

not seen DE TORRES since about November 1963.

[...]

"BALDATTI described BERNARDO DE TORRES as 33 to 34

years of age, 5' 11" tall, 155 pounds, black hair, large

dark eyes. He described the two Cuban associates of

DE TORRES, whose names he did not remember, as 35 to 40

years of age, 5' 9" tall, 150 pounds, and 37 years of

age, 5' 6" tall, 170 pounds. He said these three all

spoke English although DE TORRES was the most fluent of

the three."

Pages 8-10 are an interview of Bernardo G, Torres

conducted on 4-3-64 by James J. O'Connor at Miami.

De Torres had come to the U. S. on January 3, 1955,

and had worked for the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn,

Michigan, but was now unemployed.

"DE TORRES stated he had engaged with Cuban exiles

in the Cuban invasion of April 1961 and had been taken

prisoner in Cuba and subsequently returned to the

United States on December 24, 1962, as one of the

ransomed prisoners. He said he is an active member

of the 2506 Brigade, an organization of former members

of the Cuban invasion forces and he holds the position

of Military Coordinator in that anti-Castro organization.

"It was pointed out to DE TORRES that information had

been received that he and other Cuban associates in

approximately September 1963, had discussed plans at the

home of an Argentinian named MARIO BALDATTI together with

an American pilot named DAVID BROWN to undertake a

bombing mission against Cuba or a ship carrying cargo to

Cuba. DE TORRES stated such a discussion had, in fact, taken

place but he would not furnish any details of such plans.

He said it was apparent to him that there was a "chivato",

that is, an informer, in the ranks of the 2506 Brigade

that this information should have been divulged.

"DE TORRES stated that although he is a permanent

president of the United States and considers himself

loyal to the United States, he cannot and will not cease

his efforts to fight Communism in Cuba. He stated that

since Cuba is the land of his birth and members of his

family still live there, he feels compelled to fight

against CASTRO. He said that even though such efforts

might involve violation of laws of the United States,

he would not cease such efforts. He said that he did

not think that he would be imprisoned in the United

States for any violation of any neutrality even if he

were proven guilty of such a violation because the

United States is also committed to the fight to overthrow

CASTRO and would be embarrassed to incarcerate anyone for

participating in the same fight. DE TORRES stated the

support of the United States to the Cuban invasion of

April 1961 and its support to the movement of Cuban

exile leader, MANUEL ARTIME, in Central America are two

events which preclude prosecution of Cuban exiles for

violation of neutrality. DE TORRES said it is general

information among Cuban exiles at Miami that MANUEL ARTIME

and members of his organization Movimiento Revolucionario

de Recuperacion (MRR - Revolutionary Recovery Movement) are

receiving U. S. assistance in some manner in connection

with the establishment of training camps in Central

America.

"DE TORRES stated that the plan to use an airplane

to bomb a ship enroute to Cuba or to bomb Cuba itself,

is not presently pending but neither has the idea been

abandoned. He said he and other members of the 2506

Brigade have a dozen different plans for action against

Cuba but at present they lack the financial and material

resources to take such actions.

"DE TORRES refused to identify his associates in the

discussion which he had in September 1963, with BALDATTI

and DAVID BROWN.

"The following description of DE TORRES was obtained

during interview:

Age: 30

Born: [...], 1934, in Santiago

De Las Vegas, Havana

Province, Cuba

Height: 6' to 6' 1"

Weight: 157

Hair: Black, straight, thin on top

Eyes: Dark brown, large

Complexion: Olive

Brother: CARLOS DE TORRES, employed

by private international

detective agency, telephone

[...]"

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-90012-10041

RECORDS SERIES : HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 105-124552-NR

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : CIA

TO : HQ

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 05/18/1964

PAGES : 1

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : BERNARDO ALVAREZ; BERNARDO GONZALEZ DE TORRES

ALVAREZ

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/12/1998

COMMENTS : RPT

This is a CIA biographic data form on "Bernardo Gonzalez de

TORRES-ALVAREZ", with stamps stating "FBI interposes no objection to

proposed contact interrogation of captioned individual" and "If

interrogation of subject results in receiving of interest to FBI, we would

appreciate being advised".

[Robert Howard]

Additional ideas about Angel and Leopoldo in the Odio visit.

From AJ Weberman's site.

"Sylvia Odio told the FBI that one of the men who visited her with OSWALD had odd hair, full in the middle, and short on the sides. When Richard Whatley visited Dick Hathcock, one of his associates had a "Mohawk style haircut." The visit occurred in July 1963. By September 1963, this man's hair would have grown in somewhat and would be full in the middle and short on the sides. When Gaeton Fonzi worked for Senator Richard Schweiker, Fonzi followed-up the Mohawk haircut lead. Dick Hathcock told him that he could not recall the names of the other two men who were with Richard Whatley: "But he does think now that the fellow with the Mohawk haircut was Latin looking. When I asked him if Angelo or Leopoldo could have been either of the names, he said he couldn't swear to it under oath but Leopoldo 'strikes a vague cord. It does sound quite familiar.'" Sylvia Odio was the Subject of an FBI investigation in New York City in 1965. [FBI 105-135351-6] Sylvia Odio testified before the HSCA: "Leopoldo was tall. The thing I remember the most was his forehead, which was bald on the side, had hair right in the middle. I think later on it has been like identified like a Mohawk haircut. He had little glasses...I probably said something to the effect that [Kennedy should be killed], that the Cubans felt this also...I was worried because when the Cubans say something like that, it is natural..." HEMMING told this researcher: "Bobby Willis was the guy with the Mohawk haircut. But this was in 1961. He was not the one who visited Sylvia Odio. I know who one of them was. When Whatley visited Hathcock with the guy with the Mohawk it was 1962. I was there asshole, don't xxxxing argue with me. It was not 1963. They showed up in California in the early part of 1962. I left Miami after New Years 1962 and went to California for a couple of weeks. They followed me out there. At that point in time Willis had a Mohawk haircut. They stayed in the back of a barber shop in Monterey Park, California. While Whatley was there he was visiting his buddy at Nature's Haven, where his lion was."

For what it's worth. Gaeton Fonzi was looking at the 'Mohawk' haircut individual as a potential lead, at least at one time. I would also suggest reading Odio's WC Testimony as an original point of reference.

Also, in The Man Who Knew Too Much, by Dick Russell, (which is one of my Top 5 Books) Nagell mentions "one of the two Cubans who were associating with Oswald in August and September 1963....was seen entering the 'ON THE BEACH BOOKSTORE' on two separate occasions."

Vaughn Marlowe was the proprietor of the bookstore, and the bookstore was in Venice, California. I do not know if he is still alive, maybe Dick Russell would know, or have some thoughts on the matter.

Does anybody have Silvia Odio's 1963 phone number at the Crestwood Apt's, on Magellan Circle? If so could you please email me or post it on this thread?

[John Simkin]

Here is an interesting passage from John Newman's, Oswald and the CIA (1995):

On September 10, 1963, Special Agent Hosty sent a report on Oswald to the Bureau and to New Orleans. It was the first FBI document to make it into Oswald's CIA files since the Fain report of August 30, 1962. Hosty began by acknowledging Oswald's Magazine Street address, an address everyone else in the FBI had known about for a month. Hosty then said Oswald had been working at the William Reily Coffee Company on August 5. He apparently did not know that Oswald had been fired from his job at Reily Coffee on July 19.103 Hosty did mention the April 21 Oswald letter to the FPCC from Dallas. It would appear, however, that he did not know about Oswald's arrest in New Orleans or chose for some reason not to say anything about it. Hosty did not know about the Quigley jailhouse interview.

On Monday, September 23, the employees at CIA headquarters were still catching up on the weekend's traffic when Hosty's report arrived under FBI director Hoover's signature. It was 1:24 in the afternoon when someone named Annette in the CIA's Records Integration Division attached a CIA routing and record sheet to the report and sent it along to the liaison office of the counterintelligence staff, where Jane Roman was still working. As discussed in Chapter Two, Roman received the first phone call from the FBI about Oswald on November 2, 1959.

When Jane Roman got the Hosty report, she signed for it and, presumably after having read it, determined the next CIA organizational element to whom it should be sent. The office she chose was Counterintelligence Operations, CI/OPS. The telltale "P" of William ("Will") Potocci, who worked in Counterintelligence Operations, appears next to the CI/OPS entry, along with the date that Roman passed the report on to him-September 25. Potocci presumably worked in this office, although something on the routing sheet-probably Potocci's name or some activity indicator in CU OPS-is still being withheld by the CIA.

CIA readers of the Hosty report were treated to the outlines of the story we have followed in this and the previous three chapters: how Oswald had returned from Russia to Fort Worth, Texas, where he subscribed to the communist newspaper the Worker, and then moved to New Orleans, where he took a job in the Reily Coffee Company; most important, the CIA learned that on April 21 Oswald, having moved from Fort Worth to Dallas, contacted the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City. The report also recounted Oswald's claim to have stood on a Dallas street with a placard around his neck that read "Hands Off Cuba-Viva Fidel."

The CIA did not put this report into Oswald's 201 file, but instead into a new file with a different number: 100-300-11. We will return to that file in Chapter Nineteen. Even as the Hosty report made its way from Jane Roman to Will Potocci, an FBI agent in New Orleans was preparing yet another report on Oswald that would arrive at the CIA on October 2. This, as we will see, was the very day that Oswald, having spent five nights in Mexico City, departed from the Mexican capital.

On his way from New Orleans to Mexico City, Oswald is reported to have visited the home of Silvia Odio in Dallas. The Odio "incident," as it has become known with the passage of time, was labeled by researcher Sylvia Meagher as the "proof of the plot," because the Warren Commission accepted that Odio was visited by three men-one of whom was "Oswald." Meagher's point was that whether it was an impostor or Oswald himself, as Odio believes, the group that visited her apartment and phoned her afterward, and their pre assassination discussion of killing Kennedy, is awkward, if not antithetical, for the lone-nut hypothesis. The Warren Commission accepted that the event occurred, but dismissed Odio's version of it. First, the commission found that a September 26 or 27 visit was not possible given Oswald's time requirements for arriving in Mexico City at ten A.M. on September 27.

Second, the Warren Commission believed it had identified the three men who visited Odio: Loran Eugene Hall, Larry Howard, and William Seymour, who was "similar in appearance to Lee Harvey Oswald." All three were soldiers of fortune involved with the Cuban exiles. Hall was a self described gun runner." As discussed in Chapter Fourteen, Seymour was an associate of Hemming's.

Both of these Warren Commission contributions damaged the public's understanding of the facts in the case and the public's confidence in the integrity and objectivity of the Commission's work. The Hall-Howard-Seymour story, supplied by the FBI just in time to save the Warren Report - on its way to press - the embarrassment of not having discredited Odio's version of the incident, later turned out to be wholly fraudulent. No official connected to the Warren Report has ever apologized to the public or Silvia Odio for their shabby treatment of her and their acceptance of a concocted story, an egregious error given what was at stake.

In spite of this, strong feelings about the Odio incident remain. Silvia Odio is "full of hot air," FBI special agent Hosty said in a recent interview. Hosty did not elaborate further about the meaning of this remark, but he offered an interesting variation of the Hall and Seymour part of the story: "Hall told us [the FBI] that it was he who had been by Odio's. When the police arrested Hall they talked to Heitman." Special Agent Heitman, Hosty says, was the FBI agent "who worked among the Cubans. I was working the right wing extremists, like General [Edwin] Walker, etc." After Hall told the authorities he had visited Odio, Hosty claims, "Seymour threatened him and so he changed his story." Hosty's account also raises the possibility that William Pawley might have been involved.

"I knew of him," Hosty said of William Pawley in a recent interview."' As discussed in Chapter Seven, Pawley was working for the CIA in Miami, reporting on the Cuban situation through an extensive network of contacts. Hosty told researcher Dr. Larry Haapanan in 1983 that he thought the men who visited Odio might have been agents working for Pawley. In 1995 Hosty contacted the author, and in a follow-up interview he said, " It could be Pawley. H. L. Hunt was backing Pawley's people, and they were also getting support from Henry Luce. It could be that Pawley's guys spying on JURE (Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, led by Amador Odio]. They could have been working for Pawley or one of the other splinter groups.

The possibility that on September 25, Pawley and his right wing anti-Castro allies were using Oswald and his cohorts to collect information on the left wing JURE faction led by Silvia's father (then in one of Castro's prisons) is intriguing. It only further magnifies what the Warren Commission feared about the rest of the Odio story: It fits into the lone-nut hypothesis like a two-by-four in a Cuisinart.

[Antti Hynonen]

Based on my view of the Odio testimony, which I consider very reliable, I can not believe that anyone else visited the Odio house except Lee Harvey Oswald. I base this on the reaction of the Odio sisters, as they saw Lee Oswald as the man accused of killing the President.

William Seymour looks about as much like Lee Harvey Oswald, as any other dude.

AS to who could have been with him, I don't know. Howard and Hall are good guesses, but I do also rely on Sylvia's testimony that the individuals were "Mexican". As to the time line of events (Lee could only be in one place at one time, either Lee travelled back from Mexico to be at the Odio house on time on September 27th, 1963 or he never went to Mexico in the first place.

As I recall the CIA photos of Lee Oswald in Mexico didn't quite add up either.... furthermore, paper evidence aside, do we have any relaible positive ID's of Lee Oswald in Mexico City?

[Wim Dankbaar]

Well, my bets are still on Morales and Diosdado.

Wim

[John Simkin]

I have just found a recently declassified CIA document that states that Frank Sturgis/Frank Fiorino used the name "Angelo".

[Robert Howard]

I have just found a recently declassified CIA document that states that Frank Sturgis/Frank Fiorino used the name "Angelo".

At the risk of self immolation by advocating A.J. Weberman's treatment of the Silvia Odio/JURE/Mr. Martin issue, I will simply state that he makes some pretty informative observations as to what was obfuscated regarding that rather complex set of circumstances, re the backdrop of assassination politics behind determining the true identities of the three persons at the Odio's in Sept. 63, if memory serves correctly he surmises the Juan Martin mentioned was perhaps not a Dallas resident after all, but I am going by memory.

[Robert Howard]

I have just found a recently declassified CIA document that states that Frank Sturgis/Frank Fiorino used the name "Angelo".

At the risk of self immolation by advocating A.J. Weberman's treatment of the Silvia Odio/JURE/Mr. Martin issue, I will simply state that he makes some pretty informative observations as to what was obfuscated regarding that rather complex set of circumstances, re the backdrop of assassination politics behind determining the true identities of the three persons at the Odio's in Sept. 63, if memory serves correctly he surmises the Juan Martin mentioned was perhaps not a Dallas resident after all, but I am going by memory.

To try to get to the bottom of the Angelo and Leopoldo ID's has been a great example of a Who's on First type of situation.

To say that there are different opinions is stating the obvious.

There are a couple of points that should be raised that have not been mentioned before, at least on the Education Forum, as far as I know.

Who would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt.....

One candidate would seem to be James Hosty, after all he was the FBI man who had a certain amount of responsibility for Oswald before the assassination, Hosty's book, in my opinion, offers nothing definitive in regards to resolution to the Angelo and Leopoldo conundrum.

To the best of my knowledge, not only has the historical trail of Juan Martin seem to have petered out, but his "interview" by James Hosty, if I am not mistaken, consists of one paragraph; also when Hosty interviewed "Juan Martin" although he had been mentioned by Odio as a gunrunner, Hosty asked no questions about this at all.

I have picked up what is a, more than interesting factoid regarding this issue....as referenced below

"Interestingly, in later years, FBI agent Hosty would comment to one researcher that he suspected the visitors to Sylvia Odio's were "Pawley's people," engaged in some sort of action against JURE."

See page 338, Someone Would Have Talked - 2006

There is one item I wanted to mention about a peripheral matter indirectly related to this incident, Peter Dale Scott, years ago speculated that perhaps Juan Martin was really John Martino; The reason I mention this is that I have tried to determine if "Juan Martin" ever was documented in HSCA and ARRB related documents, as in an interview or deposition.

The idea of such a deception would certainly add to the collection of individuals of importance which were mentioned in the Warren Report and supporting documents whose names were apparently deliberately mispelled in order to avoid revealing any linkages that would lead to a deeper comprehension of certain underlying truths....

Additionally, another JURE member gave a name for Juan Martin's laundromat that did not appear in the 1964 Dallas Telephone Directory.

In Larry Hancock's, "Someone Would Have Talked", Exhibit 1-21 is an HSCA memo from Belford Lawson to Ken Klein. It concerns information on John Martino received from an anonymous informant named "Fred"* who said he was associated with Martino through the "import export" business. "Fred" lived in Fort Worth.

Lawson could never call "Fred" back because "Fred" would only call him from pay phones.

* Robert- I am reasonably certain this was Fred Claasen.

Harold Weisberg ventured into this area long before some of us were born. He offered up perhaps the most unusual analysis of this whole affair, he mentioned the names of Alonzo Escurido and Captain Leodorino Interian as possibly the real Angelo and Leopoldo. I am not certain why Weisberg maintained this belief, but I believe Weisberg's work is definitely relevant even today. Although Weisberg referenced Interian as Leovino......

See Oswald In New Orleans: Case of Conspiracy with the CIA pages 266 and 390, by Weisberg, Harold (1967)

Below is a link for Leodorino Interian.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=101624

Peter Dale Scott relates that not only did John Martino know R.D. Matthews via their time working at the Hotel Deauville casino, but that Martino also knew Frank Sturgis and, of course it is documented John Martino was in Dallas in September 1963. Not only that but Martino told a friend that he met Jack Ruby a couple of times.

See pages 117-120, Deep Politics and The Death of JFK.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Robert Howard

[William Kelly]

I have just found a recently declassified CIA document that states that Frank Sturgis/Frank Fiorino used the name "Angelo".

At the risk of self immolation by advocating A.J. Weberman's treatment of the Silvia Odio/JURE/Mr. Martin issue, I will simply state that he makes some pretty informative observations as to what was obfuscated regarding that rather complex set of circumstances, re the backdrop of assassination politics behind determining the true identities of the three persons at the Odio's in Sept. 63, if memory serves correctly he surmises the Juan Martin mentioned was perhaps not a Dallas resident after all, but I am going by memory.

To try to get to the bottom of the Angelo and Leopoldo ID's has been a great example of a Who's on First type of situation.

To say that there are different opinions is stating the obvious.

There are a couple of points that should be raised that have not been mentioned before, at least on the Education Forum, as far as I know.

Who would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt.....

One candidate would seem to be James Hosty, after all he was the FBI man who had a certain amount of responsibility for Oswald before the assassination, Hosty's book, in my opinion, offers nothing definitive in regards to resolution to the Angelo and Leopoldo conundrum.

To the best of my knowledge, not only has the historical trail of Juan Martin seem to have petered out, but his "interview" by James Hosty, if I am not mistaken, consists of one paragraph; also when Hosty interviewed "Juan Martin" although he had been mentioned by Odio as a gunrunner, Hosty asked no questions about this at all.

I have picked up what is a, more than interesting factoid regarding this issue....as referenced below

"Interestingly, in later years, FBI agent Hosty would comment to one researcher that he suspected the visitors to Sylvia Odio's were "Pawley's people," engaged in some sort of action against JURE."

See page 338, Someone Would Have Talked - 2006

There is one item I wanted to mention about a peripheral matter indirectly related to this incident, Peter Dale Scott, years ago speculated that perhaps Juan Martin was really John Martino; The reason I mention this is that I have tried to determine if "Juan Martin" ever was documented in HSCA and ARRB related documents, as in an interview or deposition.

The idea of such a deception would certainly add to the collection of individuals of importance which were mentioned in the Warren Report and supporting documents whose names were apparently deliberately mispelled in order to avoid revealing any linkages that would lead to a deeper comprehension of certain underlying truths....

Additionally, another JURE member gave a name for Juan Martin's laundromat that did not appear in the 1964 Dallas Telephone Directory.

In Larry Hancock's, "Someone Would Have Talked", Exhibit 1-21 is an HSCA memo from Belford Lawson to Ken Klein. It concerns information on John Martino received from an anonymous informant named "Fred"* who said he was associated with Martino through the "import export" business. "Fred" lived in Fort Worth.

Lawson could never call "Fred" back because "Fred" would only call him from pay phones.

* Robert- I am reasonably certain this was Fred Claasen.

Harold Weisberg ventured into this area long before some of us were born. He offered up perhaps the most unusual analysis of this whole affair, he mentioned the names of Alonzo Escurido and Captain Leodorino Interian as possibly the real Angelo and Leopoldo. I am not certain why Weisberg maintained this belief, but I believe Weisberg's work is definitely relevant even today. Although Weisberg referenced Interian as Leovino......

See Oswald In New Orleans: Case of Conspiracy with the CIA pages 266 and 390, by Weisberg, Harold (1967)

Below is a link for Leodorino Interian.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=101624

Peter Dale Scott relates that not only did John Martino know R.D. Matthews via their time working at the Hotel Deauville casino, but that Martino also knew Frank Sturgis and, of course it is documented John Martino was in Dallas in September 1963. Not only that but Martino told a friend that he met Jack Ruby a couple of times.

See pages 117-120, Deep Politics and The Death of JFK.

Robert,

I agree that there should be more on "Juan" Martin, the Uraguan gun dealer.

I don't doubt that John Martino also used the name "Juan Martin" at sometime, but I think they're two different people.

Also, came across this and thought it interesting:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=6615

BACKGROUND DATA ON "ANGELO"

BK

[Robert Howard]

I have just found a recently declassified CIA document that states that Frank Sturgis/Frank Fiorino used the name "Angelo".

At the risk of self immolation by advocating A.J. Weberman's treatment of the Silvia Odio/JURE/Mr. Martin issue, I will simply state that he makes some pretty informative observations as to what was obfuscated regarding that rather complex set of circumstances, re the backdrop of assassination politics behind determining the true identities of the three persons at the Odio's in Sept. 63, if memory serves correctly he surmises the Juan Martin mentioned was perhaps not a Dallas resident after all, but I am going by memory.

To try to get to the bottom of the Angelo and Leopoldo ID's has been a great example of a Who's on First type of situation.

To say that there are different opinions is stating the obvious.

There are a couple of points that should be raised that have not been mentioned before, at least on the Education Forum, as far as I know.

Who would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt.....

One candidate would seem to be James Hosty, after all he was the FBI man who had a certain amount of responsibility for Oswald before the assassination, Hosty's book, in my opinion, offers nothing definitive in regards to resolution to the Angelo and Leopoldo conundrum.

To the best of my knowledge, not only has the historical trail of Juan Martin seem to have petered out, but his "interview" by James Hosty, if I am not mistaken, consists of one paragraph; also when Hosty interviewed "Juan Martin" although he had been mentioned by Odio as a gunrunner, Hosty asked no questions about this at all.

I have picked up what is a, more than interesting factoid regarding this issue....as referenced below

"Interestingly, in later years, FBI agent Hosty would comment to one researcher that he suspected the visitors to Sylvia Odio's were "Pawley's people," engaged in some sort of action against JURE."

See page 338, Someone Would Have Talked - 2006

There is one item I wanted to mention about a peripheral matter indirectly related to this incident, Peter Dale Scott, years ago speculated that perhaps Juan Martin was really John Martino; The reason I mention this is that I have tried to determine if "Juan Martin" ever was documented in HSCA and ARRB related documents, as in an interview or deposition.

The idea of such a deception would certainly add to the collection of individuals of importance which were mentioned in the Warren Report and supporting documents whose names were apparently deliberately mispelled in order to avoid revealing any linkages that would lead to a deeper comprehension of certain underlying truths....

Additionally, another JURE member gave a name for Juan Martin's laundromat that did not appear in the 1964 Dallas Telephone Directory.

In Larry Hancock's, "Someone Would Have Talked", Exhibit 1-21 is an HSCA memo from Belford Lawson to Ken Klein. It concerns information on John Martino received from an anonymous informant named "Fred"* who said he was associated with Martino through the "import export" business. "Fred" lived in Fort Worth.

Lawson could never call "Fred" back because "Fred" would only call him from pay phones.

* Robert- I am reasonably certain this was Fred Claasen.

Harold Weisberg ventured into this area long before some of us were born. He offered up perhaps the most unusual analysis of this whole affair, he mentioned the names of Alonzo Escurido and Captain Leodorino Interian as possibly the real Angelo and Leopoldo. I am not certain why Weisberg maintained this belief, but I believe Weisberg's work is definitely relevant even today. Although Weisberg referenced Interian as Leovino......

See Oswald In New Orleans: Case of Conspiracy with the CIA pages 266 and 390, by Weisberg, Harold (1967)

Below is a link for Leodorino Interian.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=101624

Peter Dale Scott relates that not only did John Martino know R.D. Matthews via their time working at the Hotel Deauville casino, but that Martino also knew Frank Sturgis and, of course it is documented John Martino was in Dallas in September 1963. Not only that but Martino told a friend that he met Jack Ruby a couple of times.

See pages 117-120, Deep Politics and The Death of JFK.

Robert,

I agree that there should be more on "Juan" Martin, the Uraguan gun dealer.

I don't doubt that John Martino also used the name "Juan Martin" at sometime, but I think they're two different people.

Also, came across this and thought it interesting:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=6615

BACKGROUND DATA ON "ANGELO"

BK

File this post under serendipity.......

There are obviously so many documents to go through between the 26 Volumes of the Warren Commission and the declassified files that an attempt to obscure pertinent facts can be a relatively simple thing to do, I did run across an interesting fellow.

104-10274-10042...March 24, 1961

AMBANG 1 WIFE ADVISED LATE 23 MAR MRP* REP JUAN P MARTIN MORAN ENGINEER MINISTRY PUBLIC WORKS

STOWAWAY ABOARD TURKISH VESSEL “FATISH”

Ambang-1 advised late 23 March MRP Rep. Juan P Martin Moran Engineer Public Works arrived Houston, Texas

Accompanied by one .... [FNU]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

Interestingly enough in Jack Ruby's old memo book, he had listed the Name and phone number of Sandra Moran

See WC Vol 19, p. 75; WC Vol 22, p. 520

In Thomas Edward Beckham’s Grand Jury testimony in New Orleans by District Attorney Garrison’s office, Beckham was asked about another Jack Martin, besides the Jack Martin who had worked in Guy Bannister’s office, as well as Goldonna, Louisiana.

Question. ........We have already gone into Jack Martin. Do you know another party by the name of Jack Martin?

Beckham: I know Joe Martin.

Question: Have you ever been to Goldonna, La.

Beckham: I went to a lot of small towns, but that name doesn’t sound right

See

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=146

Recently I discovered that in the Book The Armies of Ignorance - William Corson, that the CIA implemented a dossier analysis of President-elect Kennedy to determine how he would react in certain situations, tendencies, ie.....Garrison discusses this in On The Trail of The Assassins page 69; I dont have Corson’s book I only know of it from Jim Garrison’s mention of it.

James H. Meek independent oil operator who lived on Turtle Creek Blvd. died on Friday, November 22, 1963

This is recorded in the Dallas Times Herald of November 23, 1963.

Also from the same edition was this article:

Man Injured In Shooting

“A 24 year-old West Dallas man was in serious condition Friday morning

with a gunshot wound he said he suffered when two Negroes opened fire

on the car in which he was riding after curbing it at Singleton and Winne-

tka.

Methodist Hospital attendants identified the victim as Joe Jesse Medrano

of 3610 Singleton.

Police said, Medrano, Juan Velasco, 25, 3418 Odessa and Mario Gonzalez,

26, 3610 Singleton were occupants of a car driven by Fernando Rodriguez,

24, of 3604 Bedford.

The men told police the gunmen’s automobile began crowding them, about

midnight as they drove into the 1700 block of Singleton. The men said

they stopped their car and Medrano got out to be met by five shots from the

other car which had pulled up behind them. After firing their shots, one of

which struck Medrano in the right chest, the gunmen sped away.

Could there possibly have been a connection with the bungled Terrell Armory incident?

WHITTER, DONNELL DARIUS

Sources: CD 847; Arrest Report of Dallas Police Department 11/18/63; Dallas Morning News, Tuesday, 11/19/63, p. 1-A; Houston Post, 11/14/93, p. A-1; 14 pgs being withheld - Record No. 180-10071-10289 - Agency File No. 010223 (FBI)

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 5/30/20. Wife: Mary. Driving 1962 Thunderbird, HD5095, with Lawrence Reginald Miller as a passenger when arrested 11/18/63 at Gaston and Hall, Dallas, and held on suspicion of robbing National Guard Armory near Terrell, TX. Had been attendant at V.E. Morallis Texaco Service Station and had "waited on" Jack Ruby.

Distance between Singleton and Winnetka and Gaston and Hall Street is 4.1 miles

See

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Oswald look-a-like at The Lawrence Hotel the night before the assassination; remember the other Oswald that was on Industrial Blvd., the morning of the assassination

Commission Document 7 - FBI Gemberling Report of 10 Dec 1963 re: Oswald

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=763

Robert: And here is the Joke of the Day

LETR RE WEST GERMAN INTELL INVESTIGATION

investigator reporting to Reinhard Gehlen feels there is no manner of futher clarifying the matter of whether Anton Ehrdinger did have prior knowledge of Oswald before the assassination

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

And I saved the most interesting section at the end...

The Other Oswald after leaving the Depository

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=100

The light-colored Rambler station wagon that was seen with someone who was practically a double for Lee Harvey Oswald passed under the triple-underpass at 12:40 P.M.

A few blocks beyond that overpass is the Commerce Street Viaduct, leading directly into Oak Cliff. It is practically certain that after the Rambler with an unknown driver and a “Oswald impostor” left the Depository it crossed the viaduct, and after turning left on Sylvan Street drove 12 blocks further going south on Davis St. Three blocks away was the Tidy Lady Launderette. The drive from the Texas School Book Depository, would have taken 7 or 8 minutes. It is at the launderette where the car stopped. It would have been within a minute or so of 12:47 P.M.

The Tidy Lady (1227 Davis) was at the corner of Davis St and North Clinton St. There were only two people in the laundromat, at that time John Wesley and Oda Pennington. The car with the two fugitives parked on the east side of North Clinton St., by the side door of the laundromat. The young man who exited the car passed the laundromat and then turned around and entered, making a beeline towards the payphone. A brief pause and the Pennington’s heard the caller speaking in Spanish, in the FBI report, the Pennington’s felt that the man acted as if he was in trouble, under the circumstances, the Pennington’s were no doubt, accurate in their were perception. What happened to the driver is not certain but he may have left the scene as soon as he parked the car, which is what the Oswald impostor did as soon as he finished his call. He was last seen walking South on North Clinton St.

The car had been abandoned. When the couple were shown a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, they said he “appeared” to be the same person.

Just as compelling is how close the laudromat was to Jefferson Street, the location of the Texas Theater, and on the other side of Jefferson St. in the distance was the apartment of Jack Ruby. The Tidy Lady Lauderette on Clinton Street was only five blocks south away from Jefferson Street.

paraphrased from pages 831-832 Harvey and Lee - John Armstrong

So if you are trying to ascertain if another person was "in play" on Jefferson Street besides Lee Oswald, this scenario definitely seems pertinent. End of account. Yes....End of story? Definitely not.

There was also a Clarence Otis Pennington in W. Virginia who was interviewed by the FBI, at this point it is not known whether the individual Oda Pennington was related to Clarence Pennington. However there is a very sophisticated genealogy website and Family organization named Pennington Research Association, that almost without question makes mention of an C.O. Pennigton and “his wife Ida!”......If you surmised that the Pennington’s are interesting you would be right....

http://praresearch.blogspot.com/search/lab...itary%20Records

25 hits at NARA as of 7/24/09 under simple search under last name Pennington

http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/27799/jfksnew.txt

There is another Pennington, probably C.H. Pennington who was a member of the Alien Affairs Staff who is listed in some of the hits in the From and or To Fields. None of these documents appear to be still classified.

[see 104-10260-10095]

TELEPHONE CALL FROM MR. PENNINGTON , ALIEN AFFAIRS STAFF, CONCERNING POSSIBLE POSITION OF IMMIGRATION ON MARCOS DIAZ LANZ' APPLICATION FOR PERMANENT RESIDENT VISA

also 104-10130-10149

[Peter Fokes]

CHARLES SIRAGUSA AND ROBERT BANNERMAN

Robert Bannerman, who was Deputy Director, Office of Security, during the early 1960's, and later the Director of the Office of Security "remembers Siragusa as a Office of Security covert contact/informer. He says that when an Office of Security investigation turned up information related to narcotics, Siragusa might be contacted to see if he could provide assistance. Bannerman says he is not aware of any other contacts with Siragusa nor was he involved in any assassination plotting. He says he now knows that Sheffield Edwards was involved in Castro assassination plotting, but was not aware of it at the time." [CIA OGC 77-6457 10.11.77 Robert S. Young]

The Office of the Inspector General of the CIA determined that there was no basis for Siragusa's allegations. William K. Harvey took over the assassination project from Charles Siragusa. Notes on ZR/RIFLE stated: "Maximum security. Kubark [CIA Station] only. e.g. What does Siragusa now know?"

End quote

This is intriguing. I re-read the 1967 IG report on the attempts on Castro only yesterday, and Bannerman was listed as one of those in the loop. When it came time to pay Varona, it turned out O'Connell had no budget to do so, so they briefed Esterline so he could take the money from the Bay of Pigs project, and went to Edwards to okay the money, only Edwards was out of town, so they briefed his assistant Bannerman, and got the money. Or something like that. Anyhow, the top secret 67 report said that Bannerman was in the loop, and here he lied about it ten years later.

Siragusa is mentioned in Douglas Valentine's The Strength of the Wolf: The Secret History of America's War on Drugs.

<quote on>

Joined the Federal Bureau of Narcotics before the Second World War; protege of George White; served in the OSS; group leader in New York; opened the FBN's first overseas office in Rome in 1951; became the FBN's liaison to the CIA in 1959 when he returned to Washington as field supervisor; competed with Giordano to replace Anslinger as Commissioner, served as Deputy Commissioner until his retirement in December 1963.

<quote off>

See:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Bed0gQKn-u...ary_r&cad=0

Has anyone here read Valentine's book?

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

Edited July 25, 2009 by Peter Fokes