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The windshield holes


Lee Forman
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quote=Shanet Clark,Mar 4 2005, 07:07 AM]

Must have been raining in Detroit at the Rouge River Ford Motor Company Glass Warehouse.........

That's hilarious. The FBI photo was taken in the early morning hours of 11.23.63. Even if we were to follow the Rouge-myth story, that wouldn't have happened until 3 days later.

Pamela :plane

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Pamela, it's obvious you've spent more time studying the limousine and the SS men involved than anyone. In light of this, I wonder if you've identified which SS men are cleaning up the car in the Stoughton photo outside Parkland. I'm curious because it seems quite likely to me that one of these men found CE399 and put it on a stretcher he thought to be the President's.

I also noticed recently in Doug Horne's notes on the Air Force one audiotapes that there is a statement by Roy Kellerman to Gerald Behn that "I'm sure the Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth." Is this a reference to the limousine? Is there any reason to believe that SS men loyal to Johnson went through the limousine before the official inspection? (As I remember it, Kinney looked it over on the plane, and Boring and Frazier looked it over later that night. Please refresh me if I'm wrong.) Thanks.

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Robin,

Nice stuff.  Very nice. 

The David Robert Miller photo.

This is the one that stunned me concerning the shoe over the side.  I had seen another photo, a similar view, in which an arrow pointed to the shoe and had a caption something like 'Clint Hill in the backseat, lying protectively over the Kennedys.'  I don't see how that could be anything but Kennedy's leg and shoe hanging over the edge of the Lincoln.

The Justin Newman is certainly strange looking also.

- lee

MC19.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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This is the only image of the car i could find which showed the mud on the tires, in all the others, including Parkland images, the tires appear to be clean.

This photo was taken by the FBI during their forensic exam of 100X over 12 hours after the assassination.  The car was driven from AAFB to DC in drizzle between 8 and 9 p.m. 11.22.63, most likely accounting for the mud on the tires.

Pamela :ice

Pamela.

Thanks for the information regarding the timing and arrival of the limo.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Pamela, it's obvious you've spent more time studying the limousine and the SS men involved than anyone. In light of this, I wonder if you've identified which SS men are cleaning up the car in the Stoughton photo outside Parkland.

Edited by Robin Unger
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What you have labeled a 'bullethole', low on the windshield, is actually a reflection of a radio mike that is lying on the front seat.

Pamela

Pam,

FYI, The area I am calling a bullet hole is above the jumpseat handle. Are you referring to the area a bit lower, and to our right?

What's your opinion on the Spiral Shaped Hole? The area indicated by the red arrow is what IMO is nothing more than an odd shape created by the little girl's hair curl, standing on the north side of Elm, seen behind the Lincoln.

The green arrow indicates what I believe to be the bullethole seen by witnesses, which couldn't be the reflection of a radio mike on the front seat.

As I've stated, it's more than an odd coincidence that this same exact area is tinted in ce350. It's my opinion that this is one of two bulletholes - the other possible is closer to the rearview, but still, NOT in the area of the so-called SSH.

- lee

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The green arrow indicates what I believe to be the  bullethole seen by witnesses, which couldn't be the reflection of a radio mike on the front seat. 

As I've stated, it's more than an odd coincidence that this same exact area is tinted in ce350.  It's my opinion that this is one of two bulletholes - the other possible is closer to the rearview, but still, NOT in the area of the so-called SSH. 

- lee

Lee.

Just a thought, could that white shape be the white cuff of JFK'S shirt on his right arm.

4142.jpg

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Hi Robin.

I see what you mean. However, I'm still firmly of the opinion we've got matting going on.

I've added someone's rendition of the scene which I found someplace - apologies to the author. Note the comparison. Someone believed Kennedy's right hand to be up further.

Note the left arm.

- lee

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Hi Robin.

I see what you mean.  However, I'm still firmly of the opinion we've got matting going on.

I've added someone's rendition of the scene which I found someplace - apologies to the author.  Note the comparison.  Someone believed Kennedy's right hand to be up further.

Note the left arm. 

- lee

Lee.

This is frame Z-267

Z-267L.gif

Edited by Robin Unger
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Hi Robin.

Thanks. I've given a lot of thought to your posts.

The lamp posts have been moved since 1963 [as per Jerry Dealey], making it a bit difficult to figure out the precise location of the Lincoln.

http://users2.ev1.net/~Mickeyd/Dallash19.htm

The light poles that were in the area in 1963 were moved back from the curb to the other side of the sidewalk in 1964-67.

I tried to guesstimate the location, using RB Cutler's map and Art Rickerby's photo, which has both the Stemmons Sign and the Lamppost. Let's guess that it's about 15 feet further down Elm from the Stemmons Sign. I used Cutlers scale and figured out the approximate location.

If I do that, and I draw a line from Zapruder's location, dead center, it seems to correspond with Cutlers notation of 255 in the street. He also 2 positions for Altgen's location, placing him in the street for one of these, across from the pergola, with the notation 255.

I used an approximation based upon Altgens location on RB Cutler's map and tried to recreate the photo. I had to stand in the middle of the 3rd lane - but I was mistakenly using the position of the replaced lamppost and the concrete pillar as my guides, in addition to the grass and the curb at my right. Not perfect, but looks close. This would put the Lincoln further down Elm than I had always imagined, but I don't know if it would have been as far as z267? I realize we're not talking about much of a difference here.

It's worth noting that depending upon how far down Elm the Lincoln had travelled, James Altgens certainly was taking a risk by standing in the street - which again, seemed to me to be about the middle of the 3rd lane.

Now lets examine z255:

- Kellerman is turned towards Greer - good.

- Jackie appears to be fairly distant from Kennedy - good.

- Connally's head and body is turned pretty far to the right - good

- Some kind of white object in between JFK and Jackie - may explain something. Good.

- At least one of Kennedy's hands is up to his throat [the right hand], but this wouldn't correlate for his cuff to have caused the mark we see that I am calling a bullethole, IMO. His hand seems to be more in line with the artist's sketch in that animation I did - his arm being more horizontal.

Now z267:

- We can't see Kellerman because he is blocked by the lamppost, however, in z265 and z268 he appears to be turning much to far to his left to match with the Algtens photo.

- Jackie appears to be too close to Kennedy in this frame, but that could be due to the perspective.

- Connally is turned far to his right - good.

- The white object (?) appears to be too low?

- Kennedy's right hand again doesn't seem to match up.

All speculation, but IMO, something is amiss. But neither of these frames makes me feel highly confident in the scene inside the Lincoln.

- Connally's head appears much too large in contrast to Kellerman?

- Jackie doesn't seem to be in the photo, or she has been cut off due to the white looking object?

- Jackie's gloved hand appears to extend under Greer's fingers and the steering wheel.

- Kennedy's left hand and Jackie's left hand, appear too large?

- Kennedy's arm appears to overlap the steering wheel and extend beyond normal anatomical proportions.

- Kellerman appears to be present in other versions of the Altgens?

And finally, the rearview mirror. Why aren't we seeing the lower half of Kennedy's face undistorted? Why does the rearview appear to have 2 different sizes to it? What's going on between the rearview mirror's bottom edge and the area that I think is a bullethole?

I have to say, I'm more keen now that an area of the original photo was carefully cropped, enlarged, and then re-inserted, with a new photo being taken, to cover the damage to the windshield. In which case:

- The area of tinting in the Warren Report is still suspect in the area illustrated in this thread. Tinting, IMO, was used frequently to conceal things by the 'cover uppers.'

- The trajectory of a shot from the DalTex, penetrating the Lincoln windshield from the rear, losing it's copper jacket, and continuing on the strike the curb at main and wound James Tague - still needs some research. I'd like to get in that window with a laser pointer myself, focus it on the curb where the bullet struck, and see where the light ends up with passing traffic on Elm [without blinding anyone on Main].

- The area in the Altgens may indeed be Kennedy's sleeve, but I still believe that the photo has been retouched. Clearly the one version of Altgens 6 which I believe I posted in this thread [where the rear view mirror and strut stand out clearly and Kennedy's head appears under a roof], is suspect.

A lot to think about. But at a minimum, I still don't credit a South Knoll shot through the windshield based upon the 'spiral shaped hole.'

- lee

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Hi Robin.

Thanks.  I've given a lot of thought to your posts.

The lamp posts have been moved since 1963 [as per Jerry Dealey], making it a bit difficult to figure out the precise location of the Lincoln.

http://users2.ev1.net/~Mickeyd/Dallash19.htm

The light poles that were in the area in 1963 were moved back from the curb to the other side of the sidewalk in 1964-67.

I tried to guesstimate the location, using RB Cutler's map and Art Rickerby's photo, which has both the Stemmons Sign and the Lamppost. Let's guess that it's about 15 feet further down Elm from the Stemmons Sign. I used Cutlers scale and figured out the approximate location.

If I do that, and I draw a line from Zapruder's location, dead center, it seems to correspond with Cutlers notation of 255 in the street. He also 2 positions for Altgen's location, placing him in the street for one of these, across from the pergola, with the notation 255.

I used an approximation based upon Altgens location on RB Cutler's map and tried to recreate the photo. I had to stand in the middle of the 3rd lane - but I was mistakenly using the position of the replaced lamppost and the concrete pillar as my guides, in addition to the grass and the curb at my right. Not perfect, but looks close. This would put the Lincoln further down Elm than I had always imagined, but I don't know if it would have been as far as z267? I realize we're not talking about much of a difference here.

It's worth noting that depending upon how far down Elm the Lincoln had travelled, James Altgens certainly was taking a risk by standing in the street - which again, seemed to me to be about the middle of the 3rd lane.

Now lets examine z255:

- Kellerman is turned towards Greer - good.

- Jackie appears to be fairly distant from Kennedy - good.

- Connally's head and body is turned pretty far to the right - good

- Some kind of white object in between JFK and Jackie - may explain something. Good.

- At least one of Kennedy's hands is up to his throat [the right hand], but this wouldn't correlate for his cuff to have caused the mark we see that I am calling a bullethole, IMO. His hand seems to be more in line with the artist's sketch in that animation I did - his arm being more horizontal.

Now z267:

- We can't see Kellerman because he is blocked by the lamppost, however, in z265 and z268 he appears to be turning much to far to his left to match with the Algtens photo.

- Jackie appears to be too close to Kennedy in this frame, but that could be due to the perspective.

- Connally is turned far to his right - good.

- The white object (?) appears to be too low?

- Kennedy's right hand again doesn't seem to match up.

All speculation, but IMO, something is amiss. But neither of these frames makes me feel highly confident in the scene inside the Lincoln.

- Connally's head appears much too large in contrast to Kellerman?

- Jackie doesn't seem to be in the photo, or she has been cut off due to the white looking object?

- Jackie's gloved hand appears to extend under Greer's fingers and the steering wheel.

- Kennedy's left hand and Jackie's left hand, appear too large?

- Kennedy's arm appears to overlap the steering wheel and extend beyond normal anatomical proportions.

- Kellerman appears to be present in other versions of the Altgens?

And finally, the rearview mirror. Why aren't we seeing the lower half of Kennedy's face undistorted? Why does the rearview appear to have 2 different sizes to it? What's going on between the rearview mirror's bottom edge and the area that I think is a bullethole?

I have to say, I'm more keen now that an area of the original photo was carefully cropped, enlarged, and then re-inserted, with a new photo being taken, to cover the damage to the windshield. In which case:

- The area of tinting in the Warren Report is still suspect in the area illustrated in this thread. Tinting, IMO, was used frequently to conceal things by the 'cover uppers.'

- The trajectory of a shot from the DalTex, penetrating the Lincoln windshield from the rear, losing it's copper jacket, and continuing on the strike the curb at main and wound James Tague - still needs some research. I'd like to get in that window with a laser pointer myself, focus it on the curb where the bullet struck, and see where the light ends up with passing traffic on Elm [without blinding anyone on Main].

- The area in the Altgens may indeed be Kennedy's sleeve, but I still believe that the photo has been retouched. Clearly the one version of Altgens 6 which I believe I posted in this thread [where the rear view mirror and strut stand out clearly and Kennedy's head appears under a roof], is suspect.

A lot to think about. But at a minimum, I still don't credit a South Knoll shot through the windshield based upon the 'spiral shaped hole.'

- lee

Hi Lee.

You may be right on frame Z-255

I'm not totally convinced that the frame i posted matches exactly with the Altgens photo.

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  • 3 years later...

Slightly enhanced. For anyone interested - this is a high res scan using a November 24 1963 B&W print.

- lee

Oops - a bit too big. Reduced in size and added a negative view. I am inclined to agree with Robin - the closest thing resembling a bullethole indicated - up close to the rearview mirror. But it could also be a reflection. The 'spider shaped' crescent or whatever still doesn't work. Some weird stuff here also.

- lee

Revised again - the object in question is interesting, as it appears to break the plane of the bottom edge of the rearview.

Edited by Lee Forman
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