The windshield holes

[Lee Forman]

Interesting...

My effort to find an example of the spiral shaped hole [sSH] yielded quite a bit of results with similar arguments as the one I made. The 'spiral shaped hole' is part of the background. That is new information for me.

When I originally worked on the 'SSH' - I used some enhancement techniques to pull the rearview mirror forward and in relief. I am not certified in photogrammetry, but I made the assumption that if I was to bring the rear view mirror forward and into view as clearly as possible, then the next closest object [the windshield] would also be enhanced in like fashion [light and distance to the lens, depth, etc.]. What I discovered was that the SSH faded to the background. But that was when I noted that the other object, which I strongly believe is a bullethole, which came forward - acting exactly as I had originally expected the SSH to behave. It was when I overlaid the Algens photo on the Warren ce350 that I noted that the area of tinting was in the same area. Then I closely examined the tinting and found that it could be penentrated - similar to the tinting used in Muchmore, Nix, Bell, Zapruder, etc.

Anyway - below is an example, highlighted in green, of the area identified, incorrectly IMO, as a spiral shaped crack with a hole in the center. This is nothing more than a combination of objects in the background - mainly consisting of the hair curl of a little girl standing on the side of Elm street.

All I am really arguing in this thread, aside from indicating what I believe are some clear efforts at alteration in the Warren Report for ce350, is that the location of the bullethole is not what was previously believed. I believe instead, that there are more than one, and in different locations than the SSH.

The conclusions I drew from this are as follows:

- No South Knoll throat shot through the windshield.

- No windshield replacement took place prior to the creation of ce350, as the photo was simply tinted to hide the damage and the holes.

- Throat shot came from the knoll area, unimpeded by the glass of the windshield [based upon some other work - incomplete].

- One round came from the rear, possibly from the general area of the DalTex - the round missed, possibly became unjacketed as it penetrated the glass, and then travelled on it's path to strike the curb at main, wounding James Tague. Hence the more lead, less copper Hoover joke.

- One round may very well have come from the front, but this round either failed to fully penentrate [given the very dark nature of the area in Altgens], or may have only partially penentrated the windshield, but impacted the back part of the rearview mirror. This could very well have been the cause of the lacerations noted on Kennedy's face and the need for sealing wax by the embalmer.

- The bulletholes had to be hidden, as it would have given strong indicators as to the location of the gunmen [plural]. IMO, one was a DalTex shot from the rear, the other I am still pursuing.

- There's an odd anamoly which seems to resemble a profile of Kennedy's face, which appears at our left, in between Kellerman's and Connally's respective heads. I noted that in many other versions of the Altgens 6, this area appears to have no detail at all, which is curious. I also believe it is strange that Kennedy appears to be closer to the center of the backseat, as opposed to the position we find him in seconds before the shots, which is at the far right [our far left], with his arm resting on the side of the Lincoln.

No speculation on the crack - I didn't spend any time on it.

"You can accomplish anything in life, provided that you do not mind who gets the credit." Harry S. Truman

Not seeking to rock the boat, just steady it to continue sailing, with a storm jib.

[Pamela Brown]

What you have labeled a 'bullethole', low on the windshield, is actually a reflection of a radio mike that is lying on the front seat.

Pamela

[Shanet Clark]

Here's 158 kb jpeg of the windshield.

GREER has turned ONE of his side rearview mirrors at a sharp angle to watch

the PRESIDENT. That may, or may not, be considered suspicious.

However, the spiral shaped, CLASSIC windshield bullet hole is easy to see.

To the left of the center rearview mirror.

Clear as day, you can see the paisley, or comma-shaped, shatter point.

Edited February 26, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Lee Forman]

What you have labeled a 'bullethole', low on the windshield, is actually a reflection of a radio mike that is lying on the front seat.

Pamela

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pamela,

Which item are you referring to please?

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Here's 158 kb jpeg of the windshield.

GREER has turned ONE of his side rearview mirrors at a sharp angle to watch

the PRESIDENT.  That may, or may not, be considered suspicious.

However, the spiral shaped, CLASSIC windshield bullet hole is easy to see.

To the left of the center rearview mirror.

Clear as day, you can see the paisley, or comma-shaped, shatter point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

I'm sorry buddy - no clue what you are seeing. Could you highlight the area or give me a better indicator? I do not see what you are referring to - apologies.

- lee

[Shanet Clark]

No Problem.

This is a wirephoto of what I think is an Altgens photo.

Jackie and Clint Hill are up on the rear of the limo,

heading for the underpass.

Do you see the Aerial Antenna standing vertically upright in the photo?

Follow that aerial antenna up to the height of the center-mounted rear view mirror.

On the windshield about three inches to the left of the rectangular rear view mirror,

is the comma shaped defect in the limousine's glass windshield.

I have seen it located here in this same spot in evidentiary drawings.

Since eyewitnesses of the limousine called it a "through and through bullet hole"

I say this is supporting proof of a shot from the front, and even more specifically,

a SOUTH KNOLL TRIPLE UNDERPASS originating shot, as reported by my trusted

friend and EDUCATION FORUM member, Wm. Tosh Plumlee...

His statement and this photo, and the fact that Mrs. Kennedy chased boney skull material straight back over the hood, are proof to me of a forward shot.

Also Kennedy's reaction to a throat wound is fairly explicit, and I think a flechette or a .22 is a reasonable pair of theories on this forward throat wound.

All these forward originating shots, COMBINED with the evidence of rearward originating shots -- spells a fairly large ambush team, and a co ordinated government effort, at least immediately after the fact, if not earlier.......

[John Ritchson]

[snipped for Brevity]

Hi John!

Is it at all feasible that a man could lay in the position illustrated, with a newspaper or something draped over his weapon to conceal it - say the 30.06, and from the area of the stairs, fire a round over the head of Emmett Hudson [who was in a prone position] as the motorcade drew within an almost parallel position to the stairs, and hit Kennedy in the side of the head, with an impact that would sweep him over sideways as if he were hit with a baseball bat [bill Newman's account to Ian Griggs]?  In which case his leg might dangle over the edge of the Lincoln, and his shoe could still be seen when the Lincoln arrived at parkland?  Would a 30.06 have sufficient power to cause such a tremendous physical reaction from that distance [+/- 20 feet] and create the damage that certain researchers believe is the case, barring the altered and missing medical evidence?  Is this a typical sniper type position?- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Howdy Lee,

The best way I can address this issue is by way of an anecdote:

I was once involved in the forensic aspects of a prison shooting in which a deranged prisoner took a nurse hostage and was using her as a human shield with a knife at her throat.

The sniper who took him out was positioned in a 20 meter guntower and firing about 300 meters dowrange, using a 7.62mm/.308 cartridge with a 180 grain Speer Silvertip bullet.

The prisoner behind his hostage was about 2 meters from the window when the sniper took his shot.

The bullet, at that angle of trajectory, penetrated 12.7mm of steel impregnated tempered glass, knocked the nurse out cold from its supersonic shockwave and nearly blew the head off of the prisoner.

The sniper had about a 50mm margin of error when he made that shot.

So is the '06 scenario plausable? You Bet!

Respectfully:

[Al Carrier]

[snipped for Brevity]

Hi John!

Is it at all feasible that a man could lay in the position illustrated, with a newspaper or something draped over his weapon to conceal it - say the 30.06, and from the area of the stairs, fire a round over the head of Emmett Hudson [who was in a prone position] as the motorcade drew within an almost parallel position to the stairs, and hit Kennedy in the side of the head, with an impact that would sweep him over sideways as if he were hit with a baseball bat [bill Newman's account to Ian Griggs]?  In which case his leg might dangle over the edge of the Lincoln, and his shoe could still be seen when the Lincoln arrived at parkland?  Would a 30.06 have sufficient power to cause such a tremendous physical reaction from that distance [+/- 20 feet] and create the damage that certain researchers believe is the case, barring the altered and missing medical evidence?  Is this a typical sniper type position?- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Howdy Lee,

The best way I can address this issue is by way of an anecdote:

I was once involved in the forensic aspects of a prison shooting in which a deranged prisoner took a nurse hostage and was using her as a human shield with a knife at her throat.

The sniper who took him out was positioned in a 20 meter guntower and firing about 300 meters dowrange, using a 7.62mm/.308 cartridge with a 180 grain Speer Silvertip bullet.

The prisoner behind his hostage was about 2 meters from the window when the sniper took his shot.

The bullet, at that angle of trajectory, penetrated 12.7mm of steel impregnated tempered glass, knocked the nurse out cold from its supersonic shockwave and nearly blew the head off of the prisoner.

The sniper had about a 50mm margin of error when he made that shot.

So is the '06 scenario plausable? You Bet!

Respectfully:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a pretty decent shot John, even for a stationary target. Do you know what type of windage was involved here? The 20m elevation is definately impressive.

The problem I have with a shot from the north knoll be the shot origin is that the impact would have been to the right side of the head with the massive exit being contained to the right side. A shot from the south striking the right side of the head and then blowing out the right rear is likely. Such a bullet impact would not deflect outward in it's penetration trajectory, but instead turn inward at the initial point of resistance.

Al

[Lee Forman]

No Problem.

This is a wirephoto of what I think is an Altgens photo.

Jackie and Clint Hill are up on the rear of the limo,

heading for the underpass.

Do you see the Aerial Antenna standing vertically upright in the photo?

Follow that aerial antenna up to the height of the center-mounted rear view mirror.

On the windshield about three inches to the left of the rectangular rear view mirror,

is the comma shaped defect in the limousine's glass windshield.

I have seen it located here in this same spot in evidentiary drawings.

Since eyewitnesses of the limousine called it a "through and through bullet hole"

I say this is supporting proof of a shot from the front, and even more specifically,

a SOUTH KNOLL TRIPLE UNDERPASS originating shot, as reported by my trusted

friend and EDUCATION FORUM member, Wm. Tosh Plumlee...

His statement and this photo, and the fact that Mrs. Kennedy chased boney skull material straight back over the hood, are proof to me of a forward shot.

Also Kennedy's reaction to a throat wound is fairly explicit, and I think a flechette or a .22 is a reasonable pair of theories on this forward throat wound.

All these forward originating shots, COMBINED with the evidence of rearward originating shots -- spells a fairly large ambush team, and a co ordinated government effort, at least immediately after the fact, if not earlier.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

I don't know Tosh at all, but he has yet to convince me. I believe I saw a post he had made that the evidence was forthcoming? In the meanwhile, GPH made some rather disparaging remarks concerning his credibility.

Groden believes the throat shot came from the knoll, but he relies upon the Zapruder film.

The flachette concept of RB Cutler is simply at odds with the operation of the umbrella weapon. It wasn't meant to track and fire with any high degree of accuracy at a moving target.

I won't argue with you concerning the possibility of a .22. The combination of a 30.06 and a .22 and a Bolex movie camera is most curious.

From Weberman's Nodules - #13.

Inter-Office Memorandum

To: C.H. Sapp, Det. Sgt. Intelligence Unit

From G. Zenoz, Policeman 1/c Intelligence Unit.

Date November 1, 1963.

JERRY PATRICK 2450 N.W. North River Drive, Apartment K. As instructed by Det. Sgt. Sapp I met above Subject at 201 S.W. 21st Court Apt. #2. Subject stated that one man, Loran Hall, stole two rifles from his apartment last night. One rifle being a Jungle Carbine #R5841; the other being a Savage 22 rifle with a scope. Hall was seen as he left the Subject's apartment carrying two rifles. Recently, in California, Loran Hall stole a Johnson 30-06 rifle from this Subject. Hall is staying with Cuban Manuel Aguilar at 829 S.W. 9th Ave, 373-3829.

Approximately one year ago, JERRY PATRICK, whose true name is JERRY HEMMING, a male Caucasian, approximately 30 to 31, 6' 4", 230 pounds, well built, curly brown hair, handsome, and Lorenzo Pascillo, aka Lorenzo Hall and Skip Hall, a male Caucasian, 35 to 40 years old, 5' 11", 175 to 180 pounds, black hair, mustache, ruddy complexion from Wichita, Kansas, came into Hathcock's office which was then located at 6715 Hollywood Blvd. stating that they were broke and that they knew Dick Whatley, and Whatley had sent them to him. They had with them a set of golf clubs, and a 30-06 Johnson semi-automatic with a Bushnell, variable powered scope. Hathcock loaned them $100 - $50 on each item and it was his understanding that they were to pick up the articles as soon as possible. Hathcock only saw JERRY PATRICK once after that and that was approximately one week later when he came to his office.

Several months ago, since the men did not retrieve the articles, Hathcock sold the golf clubs. On September 18, 1963, Lorenzo Hall came in with $50 and retrieved the rifle. Shortly thereafter Hathcock received a telephone call from JERRY PATRICK, who was then residing at 2450 N.W. North River Drive, Miami, Florida, inquiring as to whether Hathcock still had the rife. Hathcock told him he had given the rifle to Hall for $50 and this seemed to irritate PATRICK to some extent. Since then Hathcock has sent the receipt he received from Hall for the $50 to PATRICK to convince him he had returned the rifle.

On the day Hall retrieved the rifle, he sold him a Bolex Motion Picture Camera with telephoto lens which was then the property of Hathcock. Hall paid by two checks - one drawn on the Citizen's Bank on the account of the Committee to Free Cuba in the amount of $350 and another in the amount of $150 on the account of a resident of La Habra. Hathcock gave Hall back $100

.

I did not say that there was not a shot from the front - I believe that there was - hence the damage to the rear view and the aberration which I believe can be seen in both Altgens and ce350, close to the edge of the rear view. But my opinion will continue to be that the throat shot was made from the knoll.

I do not agree that the location of the bullethole postulated as being the 'spiral shaped hole' is accurate.

The area that you are citing as the through-and-through bullethole appears to correlate with the location of the crack seen in ce350, and disputed in Fetzer's MIDP as created after-the-fact in a replaced windshield. It does not seem to coincide with the location of the infamous 'spiral' shaped hole, which is one item I am contesting. The SSH is much closer to the rear view than the comma shape you refer to in the Altgens 7.

- lee

[Al Carrier]

I do not agree that the location of the bullethole postulated as being the 'spiral shaped hole' is accurate.

The area that you are citing as the through-and-through bullethole appears to correlate with the location of the crack seen in ce350, and disputed in Fetzer's MIDP as created after-the-fact in a replaced windshield. It does not seem to coincide with the location of the infamous 'spiral' shaped hole, which is one item I am contesting. The SSH is much closer to the rear view than the comma shape you refer to in the Altgens 7.

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lee, consider the angle of the photos before being too critical of windshield placement, when comparing Altgens 6 and 7.

Al

[Lee Forman]

The bullet, at that angle of trajectory, penetrated 12.7mm of steel impregnated tempered glass, knocked the nurse out cold from its supersonic shockwave and nearly blew the head off of the prisoner.

Thanks John!

Very interesting. Thanks.

I'll tell you it troubles me as to the reason why Emmett Hudson would have remained seated for so long following the shots. Shock of course could be a factor.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

...

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle - on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or anyplace else?

Mr. HUDSON - I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.

Mr. LIEBELER - The policemen?

Speculative question: Aside from the proofs that indeed a shot can be taken through a windshield, was this a typical procedure in your opinion, in 1963? Would a professional sniper have risked this type of shot back then?

Just another thought - if there was a shot from the South Knoll to the windshield, which I still strongly doubt personally, wouldn't there have been some concussion or shock wave experienced by Greer, or by Connally?

- lee

[Al Carrier]

The bullet, at that angle of trajectory, penetrated 12.7mm of steel impregnated tempered glass, knocked the nurse out cold from its supersonic shockwave and nearly blew the head off of the prisoner.

Thanks John!

Very interesting. Thanks.

I'll tell you it troubles me as to the reason why Emmett Hudson would have remained seated for so long following the shots. Shock of course could be a factor.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

...

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle - on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or anyplace else?

Mr. HUDSON - I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.

Mr. LIEBELER - The policemen?

Speculative question: Aside from the proofs that indeed a shot can be taken through a windshield, was this a typical procedure in your opinion, in 1963? Would a professional sniper have risked this type of shot back then?

Just another thought - if there was a shot from the South Knoll to the windshield, which I still strongly doubt personally, wouldn't there have been some concussion or shock wave experienced by Greer, or by Connally?

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lee,

If I may jump in here. Something to consider is that the target is moving and being panned. It is possible that the shooter was not even aware of the windshield as his focus was on the unobstructed target and a likely shot sequence that he was keying off other shooters to hide his origin. As far as the occupants of the limo, with so much happening at the time, I would not want to guess what they initially perceived and didn't perceive.

I have been shooting windshields for a number of years. I began this several years ago to test various calibers and compositions of bullets to see what effects the windshield had on them both through deviation of trajectory and deviation of composition. This was done for the sake of Law Enforcement as many gunfights occur in and around vehicles. Windshield glass because of the liminents and two layers that the laminent bonds together, grabs a bullet as it goes through and can strip jacketing will almost always alter trajectory. What is seen on the exterior impact side is much different than seen on the penetration side due to the compression of the glass on impact, causing this powdering ring. The greater the angle of impact, the more prominent the powdering ring around the hole on the impact side.

Al

[James Richards]

Fascinating thread indeed.

Not knowing enough about firearms and ballistics, I am far from qualified to comment on the results of a bullet strike.

This image below is an interesting one as it shows a panorama of Dealey Plaza. I have always thought that the camera position (roughly) would offer a sniper clear trajectory to his target. Is it possible that damage to the windshield and the headshot itself came from this vicinity?

James

[John Ritchson]

That's a pretty decent shot John, even for a stationary target. Do you know what type of windage was involved here? The 20m elevation is definately impressive.

The problem I have with a shot from the north knoll be the shot origin is that the impact would have been to the right side of the head with the massive exit being contained to the right side. A shot from the south striking the right side of the head and then blowing out the right rear is likely. Such a bullet impact would not deflect outward in it's penetration trajectory, but instead turn inward at the initial point of resistance.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Al:

The shooter reported he made a 2 click left windage adjustment on his Redfield scope to account for for the angle of trajectory and the direction the US flag was moving close to the target. He also reported that he decided to take the shot when his spotter reported that it appeared the prisoner had started to cut the hostage's throat. Basically we found he had no choice but to attempt the shot which even he admitted he wouldn't have taken under any other circumstances. Still, it was a hell of a shot and a standing testament to his skill as a shooter. [bTW, this shooter retired from law enforcement right after the incident and entered into psychological treatment which should provide the readers with a good idea of just how killing another human being under extream circumstances can and will affect

that person.]

Also, I tend to agree with your assessment with respect to a south knoll kill-shot as opposed to a north knoll shot for the same reasons. But, that in of itself does not preclude a north knoll shooter.

Respectfully:

Edited February 27, 2005 by John Ritchson

[Pamela Brown]

Lee said:

Pamela,

Which item are you referring to please?

I'm referencing the spade-shaped object directly below the rear-view mirror. I haven't had much luck uploading images here, so have not tried to circle it.

Pamela