The balcony arrest?

[Robin Unger]

Could this have been one of the men arrested that day?

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol19_0028b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol19_0028a.htm

Robert.

The first time i saw those photo's about a year ago, i couldn't beleive how much that guy looked like oswald.

I thought to myself at the time, what are the chances that this oswald look a like would choose to hang out in Ruby's club.

[Steve Thomas]

Robert,

I know this will generate a lot of 'yeah right' responses. But the Dallas Police had been to the Dallas Public Library branch location, somewhat close to the Tippit shooting, then to the Abundant Life Temple, where another 'Secret Service' agent materialized (that point never addressed by anyone whatsoever).

Do you have any documentary evidence for this? I mean, is it on paper somewhere?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

[Robert Howard]

Do you have any documentary evidence for this? I mean, is it on paper somewhere?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

No documentary evidence exists that I am aware of, but does the photo need an explanation, in the context of the material on this thread?

All I can say is that I was pouring over some old threads on the Forum and the link to the Armstrong Exhibit photos from the Warren Commission came up, I believe the thread title was related to the Carousel Club. I find it ironic that the name of the photo exhibit is Armstrong, considering that John Armstrong is the ultimate advocate of the Two Oswald's concept begun by others in the early day's.

I think John Armstrong should be invited to join the Forum, personally, as I also think Richard Bartholomew should.

[Steve Thomas]

Robert,

Do you have any documentary evidence for this? I mean, is it on paper somewhere?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

No documentary evidence exists that I am aware of, but does the photo need an explanation, in the context of the material on this thread?

Thank you. I wasn't referring to the photo, I was referring to your comment about the "Secret Service Agent."

Steve Thomas

[Terry Adams]

In my Southern hometown in the early 1960s, the balcony of the theater was for blacks. The downstairs was for whites only. I don't know if this was common practice throughout the segregated South, or if most towns simply had white theaters and black theaters. Does anyone know if the Texas Theater balcony would have been for black customers? This could be significant in terms of where Oswald or any other white man might be expected to go sit in the theater, depending on whether he was there to meet a contact (as has been commonly assumed) or whether he was looking for a good place to hide.

Ron

Could this explain the reason that Walthers used the expression "white" man at the steps to the balcony?

Terry

[Trent Adams]

Here’s what Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers wrote in his 11/22/63 statement:

“Upon proceeding to the balcony of the theatre, I ordered the manager to turn on the house lights. Some unknown officer was holding a white man at the steps of the balcony and I proceeded on into the balcony. I looked over the balcony and saw a commotion in the center section, near the back, in the downstairs of the theatre, and I hollered to other officers, ‘He's Downstairs’.”

-----------------------------------------

Who was the “white man” being held by an “unknown officer” at the steps of the balcony? These two people disappear in Walthers’ testimony, and we are informed that the balcony was vacant, except for officers pouring into it. Had some lone occupant of the balcony already been taken away? Who knows.

Ron

Although there are many questions in my mind involving EVERYTHING in Oak Cliff that day, I think the "unknown white man being held by an unknown officer" may have been John Gibson. Gibson was called before the WC and testified. Here is a snippet of some testimony from Gibson:

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a fire.

Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?

Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles.

Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Here is further WC testimony by George Applin:

Mr. BALL - Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. BALL - Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. APPLIN - I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. BALL - From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. APPLIN - From the rear.

Mr. BALL - Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. APPLIN - Where you enter it.

Mr. BALL - From your rear?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. BALL - What else did you see?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. BALL - You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. APPLIN - Went to the front to find out what was happened--was happened-- happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr. BALL - Did you ask him?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. BALL - What did he do?

Mr. APPLIN - Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

Mr. BALL - Started back up the aisle?

I have no proof that this is who the "unknown white man" is, but it is possible that since Gibson was located at the rear off to the right, by the stairs, with what he felt was possibly police officer right on the other side of him. If somebody just happened to see a police officer with a shotgun standing on the other side of some white man near the base of the stairs to the balcony (there were 2 stairs to the balcony), it may give the impression that this man was being held/detained by that officer.

As far as the arrest being in the balcony......All I can say that at BEST, giving the benefit of the doubt.....it is an example of extremely shoddy attention to detail in preparing these VERY important documents. I have searched at length to determine "how" or "when" it was determined by the DPD that the suspect might be in the balcony. This is the only "innocent" possibility that I have been able to come up with (of course, this does not exclude other possibilities, including the sinister ones). No matter what, the reports are horrible in regards to accuracy and it may have behooved those compiling the reports, to at least get with some of the other officers there and review their statements (Reading those reports in the DPD archives mentioned previously in this thread just gave me a headache, as they were totally inconsistent. While not saying too much about the reliability of "eye witness testimony" of police officers, it does provide alot of insight to the probability that they didn't get together to cover this incident up, because they were all over the place and contradicting each other. This obviously doesn't mean that there wasn't certain individuals doing something, but the whole group obviously didn't "get the memo of covering something up" prior to writing their statements.) Anyway, here is Burrough's testimony, which could show where this balcony stuff started:

This is testimony of the Texas Theater employee Warren "Butch" Burroughs:

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.

Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock----yes.

Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir----first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door----yes. Yes, it goes straight----you come through the door and go straight----you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No----I got information that a man----the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on----somehow they came in----one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

This whole episode is strange to me, when you take into account Haire's claims about seeing an arrest out back. Additionally, reading the affidavits and testimony of Brewer, Postal, and many others there, it just seems that by the time the WC conducted hearings months later, these folks were contradicting themselves. Like I said, EVERYTHING in Oak Cliff that day just bugs me.....nothing "fits" right.

However, it might not be right, but it is possible the unknown white man was John Gibson.

[Lee Forman]

A letter was sent by a convict, from some unidentified state prison, to the DPD.

In this letter the convict stated that he knew Harvey Oswald very well. He said that Jack Ruby and Harvey knew each other very well. He also said that Ruby had offered to pay Harvey to kill JFK. He stated that when Oswald went to the theatre to collect his money from Ruby, that he, the convict, was supposed to go with Harvey. The convict was afraid, so, rather than go with Harvey to the theatre, he had been hiding from Harvey in an alley near the theatre.

This convict, whose name did not appear in the report or on the letter, promised to get Robert and Marguerite Oswald together to set the record straight.

Could this have been one of the men arrested that day?

I will look for the DPD archives copy of the letter, and post it, as soon as I can.

Found it Chuck...

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/03/0356-002.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/03/0356-003.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/03/0356-004.gif

- lee

[John Dolva]

"some unidentified state prison"

postmark, Jackson, Mississippi. Jan4 1965. Of course that is the home of the MSC and the segregation movement. It was in their interest to have Johnson discredited because of the Civil Rights Bill. It looks like a kind of ill advised smear tactic. But still... any idea of what was a state prison in Jackson back then?

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/03/0356-001.gif

[Greg Parker]

I will make an assertion that there were two arrests in the Texas Theater that day one 'suspect' entering around 1:05 PM, who proceeded to the balcony. Then everybody's favorite patsy Lee Oswald entering afterwards. Some of the Dallas Police knew there was another 'suspect,' while others didn't. While Oswald was being taken out the front by Bill Alexander, probably simultaneously, or minutes earlier the 'suspect was brought down and was escorted out the back. Bernard Haire saw this person who he thought was Oswald coming out the back door of the Theater, surrounded by Dallas' finest who placed him into a police car, which proceeded to drive off........

I know this will generate a lot of 'yeah right' responses. But the Dallas Police had been to the Dallas Public Library branch location, somewhat close to the Tippit shooting, then to the Abundant Life Temple, where another 'Secret Service' agent materialized (that point never addressed by anyone whatsoever).

Bernie thought for 25 years that the person he saw (who was wearing a pullover shirt, slacks and appeared flushed, as if he had been in a scuffle) was Lee Harvey Oswald. He would later say "I don't know who I saw arrested."

In Crossfire Jim Marrs wrote "Neither does anyone else, but it is eloquent testimony that apparently someone other than Oswald led police to the Texas Theater.

The 'suspect' later turned up in a car, sitting in a parking lot near an El Fenix Restaurant, (only blocks awat from the Texas Theater, where he was observed by a man across the street ....after sitting there awhile the 'suspect' drove West on Davis Street at a high rate of speed, and into oblivion........

I also think that there is a photo of this person in the Warren Commission 'Armstrong Exhibits' wearing slacks and a white shirt or sweater, watching the festivities at the Carousel Club. Even though you can only see his face at a poor angle, I think he potentially qualifies as a 'Oswald impersonator.'

Er.....nah.

Lee,

the youth in the pic could be one of the TT witnesses, Ray Joiner or one of the other members of the Indignant White Citizens Council arrested at the Trade Mart, or even Roy Milton Jones - the youth Cecil McWatters thought he was being brought into it ID.

[Greg Parker]

I will make an assertion that there were two arrests in the Texas Theater that day one 'suspect' entering around 1:05 PM, who proceeded to the balcony. Then everybody's favorite patsy Lee Oswald entering afterwards. Some of the Dallas Police knew there was another 'suspect,' while others didn't. While Oswald was being taken out the front by Bill Alexander, probably simultaneously, or minutes earlier the 'suspect was brought down and was escorted out the back. Bernard Haire saw this person who he thought was Oswald coming out the back door of the Theater, surrounded by Dallas' finest who placed him into a police car, which proceeded to drive off........

Robert, if what was witnessed out the back was an arrest and not a witness being taken in for a statement, I'd agree - two arrests, not three. Reporter Jim, Ewell was on the balcony. Here are some of his recollections:

"For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was 'War Is Hell'...When the fight broke out down there, these kids stampeded out of the balcony, then I followed them down.”

If anyone was arrested in that area, Ewell and a dozen or more high school kids seemed to have missed it. But then, Ewell doesn't even place any cops up there to do any aressting...

I know this will generate a lot of 'yeah right' responses. But the Dallas Police had been to the Dallas Public Library branch location, somewhat close to the Tippit shooting, then to the Abundant Life Temple, where another 'Secret Service' agent materialized (that point never addressed by anyone whatsoever).

I have it the other way around... church --- library --- TT. However, some did return to the general vacinity of the church when the library fiasco was cleared up.

Also... like Steve... I'm curious about you "Secret Service" man at the church. First I've heard of it. Can you give us more details on that?

Bernie thought for 25 years that the person he saw (who was wearing a pullover shirt, slacks and appeared flushed, as if he had been in a scuffle) was Lee Harvey Oswald. He would later say "I don't know who I saw arrested."

In Crossfire Jim Marrs wrote "Neither does anyone else, but it is eloquent testimony that apparently someone other than Oswald led police to the Texas Theater.

The 'suspect' later turned up in a car, sitting in a parking lot near an El Fenix Restaurant, (only blocks awat from the Texas Theater, where he was observed by a man across the street ....after sitting there awhile the 'suspect' drove West on Davis Street at a high rate of speed, and into oblivion........

I also think that there is a photo of this person in the Warren Commission 'Armstrong Exhibits' wearing slacks and a white shirt or sweater, watching the festivities at the Carousel Club. Even though you can only see his face at a poor angle, I think he potentially qualifies as a 'Oswald impersonator.'

[Robert Howard]

I will make an assertion that there were two arrests in the Texas Theater that day one 'suspect' entering around 1:05 PM, who proceeded to the balcony. Then everybody's favorite patsy Lee Oswald entering afterwards. Some of the Dallas Police knew there was another 'suspect,' while others didn't. While Oswald was being taken out the front by Bill Alexander, probably simultaneously, or minutes earlier the 'suspect was brought down and was escorted out the back. Bernard Haire saw this person who he thought was Oswald coming out the back door of the Theater, surrounded by Dallas' finest who placed him into a police car, which proceeded to drive off........

Robert, if what was witnessed out the back was an arrest and not a witness being taken in for a statement, I'd agree - two arrests, not three. Reporter Jim, Ewell was on the balcony. Here are some of his recollections:

"For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was 'War Is Hell'...When the fight broke out down there, these kids stampeded out of the balcony, then I followed them down.”

If anyone was arrested in that area, Ewell and a dozen or more high school kids seemed to have missed it. But then, Ewell doesn't even place any cops up there to do any aressting...

I know this will generate a lot of 'yeah right' responses. But the Dallas Police had been to the Dallas Public Library branch location, somewhat close to the Tippit shooting, then to the Abundant Life Temple, where another 'Secret Service' agent materialized (that point never addressed by anyone whatsoever).

I have it the other way around... church --- library --- TT. However, some did return to the general vacinity of the church when the library fiasco was cleared up.

Also... like Steve... I'm curious about you "Secret Service" man at the church. First I've heard of it. Can you give us more details on that?

I am sorry about taking so long to respond to inquiries about the 'Secret Service' agent at the Church, I have 3 or 4 things I am working on simultaneously and the main reflection of this 'overload' factor unfortunately is on the Forum posts. I actually mentioned the source if the info in another thread, which is worth reading in itself, I am of the same school of thought as Lee Forman on the Tippit shooting, by the way.

See

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofivers....php/t2862.html

Although, I have never read the book, Dale Myers "With Malice" mentions that (I believe it was a Dallas Police Officer, although it may have been the kid they thought was the Tippit murderer) someone at the ABT identified himself as a Secret Service officer there, which I thought was very, very strange. But who knows since the recollections (I thought) were decades after the fact. Just a FYI.

A word of warning, Tenth and Patton is not very picturesque these day's looks awful and run down. The Top Ten Record Store? I don't know if its still there, probably a Hispanic record shop, is my guess. The Abundant Life Temple or at least the building itself, I am sure is still there, you should try to see 3126 Harlandale a few miles South of Illinois exit on HWY 67-S. Make sure you have a can of mace, it is a creepy area, and I grew up around there. It was a lot different in the 1960's

I will also offer the following piece of information, buried somewhere in Warren Commission Document 206, is at least one document that, with reference to the 'Tippit Shooting' was buried, as in 'clashes with the official version of the Tippit shooting'. Before I mention this I will add I am not offering up an 'alternative version' of Tippit's shooting, but as I was saying this document references allegations of 'a Cuban' in or around the scene of the Tippit shooting. WC Document 206 from my understanding, was only partially referenced in the 26 Volumes of the official Warren Commision Report, as I understand it WC Document 206 is a 420 or 429 page Report of SA Gemberling of January 7, 1964. I am quite sure it is in there, as well as other items, for instance a allegation of foreknowledge of the JFK Assassination at Terrell State Mental Hospital, which although 'appears debunked by the time you finish reading Gemberling's memorandum,' does not leave me convinced, as well as other veteran JFK researchers, I will not list names because critics can make allegations about the researchers credibility and I don't have time for such nonsense. I will be out of town for 6 day's, if someone has some time Gemberling's Report is on one of the JFK related sites, but I am not sure which one.

Gemberling was gracious enough to make a guest appearance on jdtippit.com asserting that there was never any evidence of conspiratorial connections as to the Tippit shooting, or anything else about the assassination, for that matter. Boy that jdtippit.com is a real interesting URL, I'm surprised it doesent have a 'safe for coincedence theorist's approved' seal of approval.

If you have time to 'kill' here's the link

http://www.jdtippit.com/html/theory_nov.htm

If your not so easily sold you may find this more along the lines of time well spent

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule17.htm

Edited March 19, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Steve Thomas]

Robert,

I am sorry about taking so long to respond to inquiries about the 'Secret Service' agent at the Church, I have 3 or 4 things I am working on simultaneously and the main reflection of this 'overload' factor unfortunately is on the Forum posts.

Although, I have never read the book, Dale Myers "With Malice" mentions that (I believe it was a Dallas Police Officer, although it may have been the kid they thought was the Tippit murderer) someone at the ABT identified himself as a Secret Service officer there, which I thought was very, very strange.

Thanks for responding.

Based on the above paragraph, I believe that you are referring to DPD Officer Marvin Buhk and it wasn't the ABT, it was the Library.

At 12:30 in the afternoon on November 22nd, Detective Marvin Buhk of the Dallas City Police Forgery Bureau was supplementing security at the Dallas Trade Mart where President Kennedy was due to give a speech that afternoon. He was on duty on the fourth floor of the Trade Mart when he received word of the President’s assassination. He said that Captain Jones then instructed him to proceed with Lt. Cunningham, E.E. Taylor, and J.B. Toney to the scene of the assassination to see what they could do. Enroute to the scene, they received word that a police officer had been shot in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas and Lt. Cunningham decided that they could do more good by going to that location immediately, rather than by way of the President’s shooting. While they were driving, they received word of the suspect being in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”

Now maybe Buhk meant to write "Special Service" instead of "Secret Service", which would make sense, but Buhk was a Detective in the Forgery Bureau and should have known the difference.

Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

From Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. Dallas Police Archives, Box 2 Folder # 7: as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Transcript of Radio Log, Channel 2. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, Sawyer Exhibit A, volume XXI, pp. 396-397, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0211a.htm

Steve Thomas

[Antti Hynonen]

Steve Thomas Yesterday, 03:49 PM Post #27

Robert,

QUOTE(Robert Howard @ Mar 19 2006, 07:20 PM)

I am sorry about taking so long to respond to inquiries about the 'Secret Service' agent at the Church, I have 3 or 4 things I am working on simultaneously and the main reflection of this 'overload' factor unfortunately is on the Forum posts.

Although, I have never read the book, Dale Myers "With Malice" mentions that (I believe it was a Dallas Police Officer, although it may have been the kid they thought was the Tippit murderer) someone at the ABT identified himself as a Secret Service officer there, which I thought was very, very strange.

Thanks for responding.

Based on the above paragraph, I believe that you are referring to DPD Officer Marvin Buhk and it wasn't the ABT, it was the Library.

At 12:30 in the afternoon on November 22nd, Detective Marvin Buhk of the Dallas City Police Forgery Bureau was supplementing security at the Dallas Trade Mart where President Kennedy was due to give a speech that afternoon. He was on duty on the fourth floor of the Trade Mart when he received word of the President’s assassination. He said that Captain Jones then instructed him to proceed with Lt. Cunningham, E.E. Taylor, and J.B. Toney to the scene of the assassination to see what they could do. Enroute to the scene, they received word that a police officer had been shot in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas and Lt. Cunningham decided that they could do more good by going to that location immediately, rather than by way of the President’s shooting. While they were driving, they received word of the suspect being in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”

Now maybe Buhk meant to write "Special Service" instead of "Secret Service", which would make sense, but Buhk was a Detective in the Forgery Bureau and should have known the difference.

Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

From Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. Dallas Police Archives, Box 2 Folder # 7: as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Transcript of Radio Log, Channel 2. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, Sawyer Exhibit A, volume XXI, pp. 396-397, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0211a.htm

Steve Thomas

Steve,

I recall reading the story regarding the man arrested at the Library. According to the well put together explanation, it was a case of mistaken identity, and the reason why the man was arrested at the library was because he roughly fit the description. He was interrogated and released.

The reason he caught the attention of authorities there was the fact that he was running from one place to the other outside the Library. If I'm not mistaken, this man was someone who worked at the library and was possibly also an individual with developmental problems. I could be wrong as this is something I read a good while ago.

However, I do not recall reading about any Secret Service agents present at the time, perhaps DPD detectives.

I also recall that this story has been posted on this Forum, or at least there is a link here somewhere. I'll try and locate it.

[James Richards]

At 12:30 in the afternoon on November 22nd, Detective Marvin Buhk of the Dallas City Police Forgery Bureau was supplementing security at the Dallas Trade Mart where President Kennedy was due to give a speech that afternoon. He was on duty on the fourth floor of the Trade Mart when he received word of the President’s assassination. He said that Captain Jones then instructed him to proceed with Lt. Cunningham, E.E. Taylor, and J.B. Toney to the scene of the assassination to see what they could do. Enroute to the scene, they received word that a police officer had been shot in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas and Lt. Cunningham decided that they could do more good by going to that location immediately, rather than by way of the President’s shooting. While they were driving, they received word of the suspect being in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”

Now maybe Buhk meant to write "Special Service" instead of "Secret Service", which would make sense, but Buhk was a Detective in the Forgery Bureau and should have known the difference.

Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”? (Steve Thomas)

Thanks for that, Steve. Very interesting.

There are some aspects of the timing here which has me somewhat confused. Buhk is at the Trade Mart when the word comes through about the assassination. I imagine this would have been within minutes of it happening. He, Cunningham, Toney and Taylor head off for Dealey Plaza but en-route are told of Tippit's murder which according to the Warren Report happened at 1:15pm. These guys were sure taking their time to get into the action.

So on their way to the Tippit murder scene, they get the word that a suspect is in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. It's 1:32pm when C.T. Walker broadcasts the location of the suspect. Was Buhk and the others already there or were they still en-route? If they were already there, how did they know? If they were en-route, then they were driving around for nearly an hour.

At 1:40pm the information comes through that the suspect at the library is the wrong man. Oswald is arrested at the theater at 1:45pm. Four of the officers involved with the action at the theater and who entered the building together were Nick McDonald, T.A. Hudson, Ray Hawkins and C.T. Walker. Walker certainly got to the theater in super quick time. Is this realistic?

BTW, Buhk is a very interesting character. In 1952 he was an assistant jailer when John Howard Pressley was beaten. Buhk was the acting supervisor that night and copped a 30 day suspension. Assistant jailer Herbert Shafer was fired and Apprentice Policeman C.A. Moore was suspended for 15 days.

Buhk was also reduced in rank to Patrolman.

FWIW.

Marvin Buhk below.

James

[Antti Hynonen]

James Richards Posted Today, 11:43 AM At 1:40pm the information comes through that the suspect at the library is the wrong man. Oswald is arrested at the theater at 1:45pm. Four of the officers involved with the action at the theater and who entered the building together were Nick McDonald, T.A. Hudson, Ray Hawkins and C.T. Walker. Walker certainly got to the theater in super quick time. Is this realistic?

James, I believe it could be realistic, the Library and Texas Theater are both in the same area of Oak Cliff as I recall. Now, whether that 45-60 minute period from the shooting of the president and the time to drive the cops from the trade mart to almost down-town and then down to 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff to the Tippit shooting makes sense I don't know. To me that sure sounds like the time line is faulty.....