"I don't own a rifle---"

[David Von Pein]

At a real trial, not the phony fiasco in London, [buell Wesley] Frazier would have been opened up like a clam by a skilled and knowledgeable lawyer who really knew this case. Opened up to the point that no one, except maybe you [DVP] and McAdams, would have beleived [sic] him.

Unbelievable.

DiEugenio gives new meaning to the word silly.

Ask 1,000 conspiracy theorists if they think Lee Oswald took a large package into the TSBD on 11/22, and approximately 999 of them will say, "Yes, of course he did, but the bag was too short to hold LHO's rifle."

DiEugenio, of course, will never explain why the police forced Wes Frazier to say that a MADE-UP bag had dimensions that were too short to house disassembled Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle C2766.

You'd think that if the bag was non-existent from the get-go, the crooked cops and Frazier (and Randle) would have made sure to say the make-believe bag was at least big enough to hold the object that was supposed to be inside that non-existent bag.

So, the cops were not only crooked beyond belief--they were also apparently dumber than dirt too. Go figure.

Keep on going, Jimbo. Your delusions are perpetually entertaining. Not to mention more hilarious

than Jack Benny.

Edited October 28, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

1. Davey, why did no one but Frazier see Oswald and his arm length sack enter the TSBD?

Why would you expect anyone but Frazier to have seen this? And please don't bring up Dougherty, because he admitted he wasn't paying any attention to Oswald when LHO entered the building on 11/22. He said he only saw Oswald out of the corner of his eye. Hardly a perfect witness for your "No Bag At All" purposes, Jimmy.

2. Davey, why did Shields say that Frazier told him he dropped off Oswald at the front of the TSBD that day? If so then Frazier is lying about following him and seeing the sack under his arm.

Mr. Shields is obviously wrong, Jimmy. But you want to believe Shields, vs. believing the person (Buell Frazier) who has always stuck to his story from Day 1 about all of the stuff he did on November 22nd, including the manner in which Oswald exited the car and picked up his package out of the back seat while Frazier was charging his battery in the distant employee parking lot.

3. Davey, why did Troy West say that Oswald never got any paper from him at the TSBD even when he was always at his counter? He even ate lunch there.

Just because Troy West didn't see Oswald take some paper and tape doesn't mean Oswald didn't take those items from West's work area. (I assume Troy had to go to the bathroom every now and then. That could very well be when Oswald stole the paper. It wouldn't have taken very long to swipe those items.)

4. Why did no one at the Paine household say they saw Oswald with his paper that night?

Probably because Lee was being careful and wasn't flaunting the paper for everyone to see. After all, he was going to use it to hide a rifle that he'd be using the next day in a Presidential assassination attempt. Stands to reason he wouldn't be waving the paper bag around for everybody to see.

5. Why were there no remnants [of] the paper found, or the tape, if Oswald prepared the sack that night?

Let me throw this same reasoning back in Jimbo's face with this question:

Why were there no bullets found from the various non-Oswald guns that you think were used to kill JFK?

To answer your #5 hunk of chaff specifically -- "Remnants" of the paper bag trimmings could very well have been deposited by Oswald in a garage (or kitchen) trash can on the night of Nov. 21st, and Ruth Paine probably never would have noticed such snips of paper.

I suppose you think the cops should have searched through Ruth Paine's trash for "paper trimmings/remnants", eh Jim?

6. Why was the broken down rifle not scratched as it would have had to have been if Frazier is telling the truth?

You're kidding with this hunk of silliness, aren't you Jimbo?

Oswald's rifle WAS beat up and scratched and battered. Why do you think otherwise? Just look at the close-up color views of the rifle via the NARA photo below:

7. Why did Linnie Mae tell that x-ray vision story that is almost certainly false? Now, can you imagine getting Frazier on the stand and cross examining him with this material, and much more? I would love to have him carry the disassembled rifle in a sack and walk the length of the court room a couple of times and then look at the parts.

I would also love to take the jury to the Frazier home. I would then have them stand one by one in the spot where Linnie was standing and ask them if they can see through the car port.

You CAN see through the carport. The slats in the carport wall are far enough apart to let lots of light in, and hence a person on the other side can be partially seen. Just look:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/servlet/PageImage?mode=getPage&fileName=nary-wcdocs-37_0018_0017&pageId=349643

Your desperation to take the rifle out of Lee Harvey Oswald's hands has reached fantastic and outrageous proportions, Jimbo. You've got to have the police making up lies (particularly people like J.C. Day and Bob Studebaker, who each said they saw the paper bag lying in the Sniper's Nest after the assassination); you need Buell Frazier to be a xxxx about a whole bunch of stuff that he said he did and saw on Nov. 22; you've got to have Linnie Mae Randle being a xxxx; and you've got to have both the Warren Commission and the HSCA being composed of a bunch of gullible goofs -- because BOTH of those official U.S. Government entities believed that Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle were telling the truth when they said they saw Oswald carrying a bulky brown paper bag on the morning of 11/22.

Now, who should I believe -- All of the above people/Govt. organizations or James "Oswald Never Fired A Shot At Either JFK Or Tippit" DiEugenio?

Not exactly the toughest choice in the world, is it?

Edited October 28, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Bernice Moore]

from the w/c where frazier was parked that day and distance to the tsbd...fwiw..b

[David Von Pein]

I take back point 6. I actually trusted the DVP picture, which I should not have.

What Ian Griggs says in his book is that when he broke down the MC rifle, and carried it in a paper sack, the front end of the stock. the first 7 or 8 inches, showed signs of scoring and scratching. (Griggs, No Case to Answer, p. 200)

What the picture showed was the butt end of the rifle.

LOL. Since Ian Griggs' experiment indicated signs of scratching at the front of the rifle, DiEugenio thinks this HAS to mean that Lee Oswald's dismantled rifle HAD to show the exact same wear/scratch pattern throughout the length of the weapon.

Hilarious, Jimbo.

BTW, how do you know that the front end of Oswald's rifle WASN'T scratched up too? It looks to me like the front portions of the wood on Oswald's gun just might be scratched up too:

BTW #2 -- If Edward Shields is correct about Oswald being dropped off at the front of the TSBD building on 11/22/63, then why did Oswald enter the building that day via the BACK door? Was the front door locked prior to 8:00 AM CST? (It's quite possible that the front door was locked at that early hour of the morning, but I'm not certain about that.)

Anyhow, either way you want to slice it, Jack Dougherty CORROBORATES Wesley Frazier in the sense that they both said that Oswald walked in the BACK door of the Depository a little before 8AM on Friday, Nov. 22nd.

And I'll repeat this important point for Jim once again:

"I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he [Lee Oswald] came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye." -- Jack E. Dougherty [6 H 376-377] (Emphasis added.)

Edited October 29, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Todd W. Vaughan]

This gets boring with you Davy Boy.

This is the Shields testimony to the HSCA:

"And he was parking on the back --on the back lot out there. And he hollered and asked him (Frazier) where was his rider and he said "I dropped him off at the building."

OK, that is it. No location specified.

Now, go ahead and write 36 paragraphs about how that testimony equals the front of the building.

About the rifle, Davey, please go to the archives and shoot the photos of the front stock of the weapon. Just like you were going to get those preservation photos that were going to show us the Elmer Todd initials and reveal John Hunt to be a damned xxxx.

About Dougherty, Davey, you are practicing some of the most egregious censorship and tailoring of testimony since the stunt you pulled with Oswald's landlady and the police car. Remember when you tried to say the car honking there was an every day thing, but failed to note this car was not the same car that usually honked?

Well, Ball tried to challenge Dougherty on his testimony about five different times. In fact, Griggs calls this "one of the very worst examples of witness harassment in this investigation" which is saying something, considering the antics of Specter. (Griggs, No Case to Answer, p. 196)

First, Dougherty established that he saw Oswald when he first came in the door.

JD: "Yes, I saw him when he first came in the door, yes."

Ball: "Did he have anything in his hands or arms?"

JD: "Well, not that I could see of."

This was not enough for Ball. He knew this was deadly to Frazier's story. So the following colloquy took place.

Ball: "Do you recall him having anything in his hand?"

JD: "Well, I didn't see anything if he did."

Ball: "Did you pay enough attention to him you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?"

JD: "Well, I beleive I can--yes sir--I'll put it this way: I didn't see anything in his hands at the time"

Ball: "In other words your memory is definite on that , is it?"

JD: "Yes sir"

Ball: In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?"

JD: I would say that--yes sir."

And that seals the deal. Even though Ball did not like it, Dougherty was not movable on this issue.

Griggs then goes on to explain why Ball was so desperate to move Dougherty off his certainty. Because of the following: "You will search in vain for any employee of the Texass School Book Depository (other than Buell Wesley Frazier of course) who said that Oswald had been in possession of any sort of package when he arrived at work that morning. Furthermore, nobody ever stated that they had seen him with a package inside the building at any tie that day." (Griggs, p. 197)

Between Shields, Dougherty, and the fact that no one else saw this rather large, bulky package stuffed under Oswald's armpit--Wesley Frazier has a big problem today.

And he better hope this case does not get reopened, because Gary Mack's alter ego, the cover up man Dave Perry, won't be able to help him.

Jim,

I’m surprised you rely so heavily on Dougherty’s testimony as being the be all-end all as to whether or not LHO was carrying anything when he entered the TSBD.

Have you ever taken the time to read Dougherty’s entire testimony? It’s a complete mess. He’s 40 years old and lives at home. Somethings not right with the guy.

Here are a select few examples:

Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL - You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Here’s one that is just classic:

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.

This is a classic as well:

Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me."

Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did---yes.

Then there’s this gem:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise---it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the President been shot?'. He said, "Yes."

Mr. BALL - You didn't say--did you say, 'Has the President been shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I asked him that too.

Mr. BALL - And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that somebody had Just shot the President; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot first--- you or Eddie Piper?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

Todd

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Jim,

Quoting Ian Griggs, you wrote:

"You will search in vain for any employee of the Texas School Book Depository (other than Buell Wesley Frazier of course) who said that Oswald had been in possession of any sort of package when he arrived at work that morning. Furthermore, nobody ever stated that they had seen him with a package inside the building at any tie that day." (Griggs, p. 197)

That's not true.

One of the female TSBD employees, Mary Hollies, claims she got onto one of the elevators with LHO that morning and he was carrying a package with him that he said contained fishing rods. This claim was apparently made in a later day interview someone did with her and this appeared in one of the American History magazine articles as I recall, I think in 1988. I have the article but don't know how quickly I could find it.

Granted, it's not a contemporaneous account, and as I recall the witness did have a statement or two in 1963/64 in which she did not mention this, but she claim does exist.

Todd

[David Von Pein]

Jimmy DiEugenio will apparently forever ignore these words spoken by Jack Dougherty...which really are the KEY words regarding Dougherty being able to definitively state whether Oswald was carrying anything in his hands or not on the morning of 11/22/63:

"I just caught him [Oswald] out of the corner of my eye." -- Jack Dougherty [6 H 377]

I guess Jimbo thinks there's such a thing as perfect 20/20 peripheral vision. That's a new one on me.

And, yes, Todd, you're right about Jack Dougherty. His freight elevator (whether it be the east one or the west) definitely didn't reach the Depository's seventh floor.

Although, to tell you the truth, I hadn't realized that fact prior to writing up the article below on Dougherty in 2008. I found out about Dougherty's alleged mental handicap the following year after writing this up. So take that into account as I'm rolling on the floor laughing at Mr. Dougherty's WC testimony here:

EXAMINING THE WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY OF JACK DOUGHERTY

EXAMINING THE WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY OF JACK DOUGHERTY:

-------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone wants several good-sized laughs, I'd like to recommend

reading the official April 8, 1964, Warren Commission testimony of 40-

year-old Jack Edwin Dougherty, who was one of the employees who was

working at the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963.

In addition to the many laughs, Mr. Dougherty's above-linked testimony

is bound to give anyone reading it a bit of a headache as well (anyone

who is trying to use Dougherty's testimony as a vehicle to prop up anything

"definitive" or "conspiratorial" in nature when it comes to the events

that occurred inside the Book Depository Building on 11/22/63, that is).

Dougherty's WC session is just one great-big mess. I can only imagine

the thoughts that were going through the mind of WC questioner Joe

Ball after he took Dougherty's testimony that spring day in 1964. Joe

probably felt like rolling his eyes every few seconds while listening

to Dougherty's hither-and-yon answers to the questions he was being

asked.

But, in Dougherty's defense, I'll have to add this -- Jack was

probably very nervous when he gave his WC testimony; and possibly his

answers didn't always come out just exactly as he meant them to come

out. This same thing probably happened with a lot of the 552 witnesses

who were questioned by the Warren Commission in relation to the JFK

case.

If it were me, I'd certainly have been scared to death. And when

you're scared to death, your words might have a tendency to become

unclear and maybe even incoherent at times. I think this occurred with

several of the witnesses who appeared in front of the WC in '64.

[JUNE 2010 EDIT --- Whether or not Jack Dougherty was mentally disabled in some

way, I have not been able to confirm. But I have heard that he was a

little "slow". If he did suffer from a mental handicap, it would certainly

help explain some of the strange things Mr. Dougherty told the Warren

Commission in 1964.]

Let's examine a few of Mr. Dougherty's hilarious and semi-hilarious

statements made to the Warren Commission:

=====================

JOSEPH BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

JACK E. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in

Indiana up there--Seymour, Indiana.

[DVP: This is the first "LOL" moment in Jack's testimony. As a native

of the great state of Indiana, I had no idea I was living outside the

United States.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I usually do.

[DVP: The above testimony had me doing TWO double-takes (due to the

fact that the above words spoken by BOTH Dougherty and Joseph Ball are

seemingly so incredibly silly).

First, Dougherty confirms he takes only 45 minutes for his regular

lunch break each day at the Depository. But then Ball feels compelled

to ask the odd follow-up question, "Do you always take a full

hour?" (even though Dougherty just one second earlier confirmed his

lunch break was only 45 minutes long).

And then Dougherty goes with the flow (evidently) and completely

changes his lunch-break time to a "full hour" by answering "Yes, I

usually do" to Ball's follow-up question.

Perhaps the two men, when talking about a "full hour", were referring

to the time it took to physically eat lunch plus some added time

milling around the TSBD after lunch, playing dominoes, etc. ~shrug~

Anyway, the above exchange struck me as humorous (and not just

Dougherty's part). ]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him

[LHO] that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to

you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when

he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---

that's the reason why I said it that way. ....

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in

his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.

[DVP: So, we have JD admitting to the WC that he only saw Oswald "out

of the corner of my eye" as LHO entered the back door of the TSBD on

November 22nd....and yet we also have Dougherty being certain that

Oswald had nothing in his hands at all (even though he admitted just

seconds earlier that he only saw LHO "out of the corner of my eye";

i.e., he saw LHO via his peripheral vision as Lee came in the back

door).

I'll leave it up to the individual readers of JD's testimony to decide

whether or not Mr. Dougherty is entirely believable when he said he

was not "guessing" when he claimed that Lee Oswald entered the Book

Depository empty-handed on the morning of the assassination.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a

motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched

him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I

could get out there.

[DVP: So, per Jack, there were so many people clogging the entrance

of the TSBD around 12:30, he was physically prohibited from exiting

the Depository VIA ANY OF THE OTHER DOORS IN THE BUILDING at

approximately the time when the President was driving by the building.

Maybe I shouldn't be laughing at JD's above silly-sounding testimony

after all, huh? Because by doing so, perhaps I'm playing right into

the hands of the conspiracy-happy kooks who probably have a desire to

paint Mr. Dougherty as one of the conspirators in the plot to kill

JFK.

After all, the above testimony about JD definitely WANTING to go outside

to see the President, but not being able to do so because of the people

blocking the entrance to the building is certainly testimony that could

be looked at sideways and with a wary eye by the conspiracy kooks of

the world (if it hasn't been looked at in that fashion heretofore).

Evidently, it never occurred to Dougherty to go out the back door and

then walk around the building in order to catch a glimpse of President

Kennedy driving by.

And apparently it also never occurred to Jack to simply go upstairs to

the fifth or sixth floor (the warehouse floors) in order to get himself a

great bird's-eye view of the President passing by from one of the many

windows that he could have had all to himself on the upper floors of

the building at 12:30 PM, just as some of his fellow employees did

that day.

Mr. Dougherty doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier,

I must say. (Sorry, Jack, just an honest observation.) ~wink~]

=====================

Mr. BALL - When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or

the sixth floor to go back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to

go down to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you

had your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.

[DVP: So, via the above testimony, Mr. Dougherty is, in effect, saying

this:

I HEARD THE SHOOTING BEFORE I ATE MY LUNCH, BUT THEN AFTER HEARING THE

SHOOTING AND THE COMMOTION I WENT AHEAD AND ATE MY LUNCH ANYWAY AND

THEN WENT *BACK* TO WORK AFTER FINISHING MY LUNCH, WHICH, AS

MENTIONED, WAS EATEN *AFTER* THE SHOOTING TOOK PLACE AND *AFTER* THE

BUILDING WAS BEING INUNDATED BY THE POLICE.

I think only one other comment is really in order here, which is ---

Huh???

EDIT --- Incredibly, another Depository employee, Buell Wesley Frazier,

also said he ate his lunch almost immediately after the assassination.

And Wesley went down into the BASEMENT of the Depository Building

to consume his noontime meal on November 22! A little bit more on that

can be found HERE, [in an article examining the WC testimony of Wesley Frazier].]

=====================

Mr. BALL - And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud

noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL - And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; that was the only one I heard.

Mr. BALL - You only heard one?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And where did it sound like it came from?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.

Mr. BALL - From overhead?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How did you get to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Elevator.

Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you take?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on

this side the one on this side is the one I took.

Mr. BALL - Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side,"

doesn't mean much when it's written down.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I know it.

[DVP: Oh, my bladder! I wonder how Mr. Ball kept his own laughter in

check during this session with Mr. Dougherty? It must have been a

chore.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when I got through getting stock off of the

sixth floor, I came back down to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - What did you do on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I got some stock.

Mr. BALL - Then what happened then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise---it

sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first

floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I

says, "Has the President been shot?". He said, "Yes."

Mr. BALL - You didn't say--did you say, "Has the President been

shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor

and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud

noise.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I asked him that too.

Mr. BALL - And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you

that somebody had just shot the President; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot

first -- you or Eddie Piper?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - Did you say anything to Piper about the President being

shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

=====================

Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you

told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud

explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor

above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot,

coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car

backfiring.

Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the

floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes.

[DVP: I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala

"backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh?

At this point in this incoherent mess, Joe Ball is probably

desperately wanting to ask Dougherty how many hits off of that

marijuana joint he had taken just prior to testifying on April 8th.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they

found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

[DVP: So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22

PM CST on November 22nd. Mr. Ball is now probably getting ready to put

in a call for Nurse Ratched and the white-coated technicians from the

nearest loony-bin.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large

package?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. BALL - Who said that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw

him carrying a fairly good-sized package.

Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

[DVP: Although Dougherty, via the above testimony, didn't specifically

claim that Shelley said he (Shelley) saw LHO carrying a "fairly good-

sized package" ON NOVEMBER 22ND, I think that such an inference could

be implied by Dougherty's above words. Which, of course, is total

nonsense. Shelley didn't see any such thing.

Perhaps Dougherty meant to say "Wes Frazier" instead of "Bill Shelley"

above. If so, it would make much more sense...except for the fact that

"the day after it happened" was a Saturday, i.e., a day when the

regular stock workers of the TSBD didn't report to work. So, once

again, it's a jumbled-up mess that JD's providing us here.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the

shots?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on

the fifth floor at all. It was just myself.

[DVP: The above quote isn't so much hilarious as it is just plain

wrong. Norman, Jarman, and Williams, of course, were all on the south

side of the 5th Floor at the time of the shooting.

But, to be totally fair to Dougherty in this instance, it's quite

possible (what with the obstructions of boxes and other things that

might have blocked his view) that JD just simply couldn't see the

south side of the building (by the windows) during the time he might

have been on the fifth floor on November 22nd.]

=====================

Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch.

Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

[DVP: Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment

regarding JD's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone

POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above?

Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same

day's WC testimony:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL - What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

I guess the assassination must have really taken place prior to 12:00

Noon then (per JD's morass of distorted lunch-eating timelines).

So, in order for JD's "I heard a shot before lunch" testimony to be

true (in conjunction with all of his other testimony, if we're to

believe portions of it as well), Dougherty would have had to have

heard the gunshot or "backfire" many minutes prior to 12:30 (unless JD

waited a half-hour after his 45-minute lunch break started to begin

eating his lunch that day)....and then after hearing the shot, he

descends to the first floor to talk with Eddie Piper.

And then, per JD, after being told by Piper that the President had

just been shot right in front of the building, Dougherty went ahead

and ate his lunch, as if it was an ordinary lunch break and as if

nothing unusual had just occurred in front of the building on Elm

Street.

And then, sometime after eating his lunch and while searching for Roy

Truly, Dougherty was allowed back up on the sixth floor at a time (per

JD) which was AFTER the police had already discovered Oswald's rifle

(which would have been 52 minutes after the shooting itself).

Holy smoke, what a mess this testimony is!]

=====================

Mr. BALL - That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up

and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can,

or you can waive your signature. What do you want to do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, whatever you want to do---it doesn't make any

difference.

Mr. BALL - Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, if you've got time, I'll sign it now.

=====================

For some additional confusion, contradictions, and laughs, have a look

at Jack Dougherty's November 22, 1963, affidavit.

In [his] affidavit, JD claims to have seen several TSBD employees on

the sixth floor AFTER the assassination took place (at least that's

how it comes out via his affidavit; but he undoubtedly was actually

talking about seeing the TSBD workers, including Oswald, on the sixth

floor sometime BEFORE the actual shooting took place; but that's not

how it appears on JD's very strangely-written affidavit).

David Von Pein

March 2008

June 2010

Edited October 29, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Martha Moyer]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...se.433db25.html

Irving buys Paine House, made infamous by Lee Harvey Oswald

03:30 PM CDT on Monday, September 7, 2009

By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News

bformby@dallasnews.com

Autry Lewis stood in front of his Irving home on a November morning waiting for a ride. The man who sometimes stayed at Ruth Paine's house across the street was waiting for his ride, too.

Lewis didn't see what the man grabbed from Paine's garage before he hopped into a friend's car that Friday morning. But Lewis learned from television broadcasts hours later that the man's name was Lee Harvey Oswald.

By then, President John F. Kennedy and Dallas police Officer J.D. Tippit were dead, and the nation was mourning. Oswald was in custody, and the house across the street, at 2515 W. Fifth St., was inextricably linked to one of the most infamous moments in American history.

"Many people aren't aware of all of that," Irving Mayor Herbert Gears said Wednesday, one day before the City Council unanimously agreed to spend $175,000 to buy what's now commonly called the Paine House.

Marina Oswald

Ruth Paine, described as a kindly Quaker woman, took Oswald's estranged wife Marina and their daughter into her house two months before the assassination. The relationship between Paine and the Oswalds was the subject of a Thomas Mallon book, Mrs. Paine's Garage and the Murder of John F. Kennedy.

Paine, who lived in California as late as 2007, could not be reached for comment last week.

Marina Oswald, who has since remarried, did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Shortly after the assassination, Paine told The Dallas Morning News that she invited Marina Oswald to live with her after learning the woman was pregnant with her second child.

"I was sympathetic," Paine told The News. "There was nobody to help her, and I felt she shouldn't be alone. So I invited her, one woman to another, to stay with me."

Lewis and his wife, Priscilla, moved onto the street in 1963, months before the assassination. They met Paine when they first moved in but rarely interacted with her. They typically saw the Oswalds but didn't know their names.

Lee Harvey Oswald spent weeknights in Oak Cliff but typically showed up to the Paine House on Fridays and spent weekends there, visiting his wife and their daughters.

The Oswalds had argued in the days leading up to the assassination.

Marina Oswald told the Warren Commission investigating the assassination that she didn't really suspect anything out of the ordinary when her husband showed up at the Paine House on Nov. 21, 1963 – a Thursday.

They argued again that night when Lee Harvey Oswald begged his wife to move back in with him. She reportedly refused.

Lewis said he sat at his dining room table that night and looked out his home's front windows. He said he could see Oswald fiddling with something in the Paine House garage. But he couldn't see what exactly.

"Had I had a pair of binoculars ..." Lewis said.

And when Oswald grabbed something wrapped in shipping paper from the garage the next morning, Lewis didn't think much of it. Until later that day.

Priscilla Lewis was working at a law firm in Dallas in 1963. She was at lunch with a friend when the waitress came over and told them the president had been shot.

When Priscilla Lewis returned to work, she got a phone call about something happening at the Paine House.

"The neighborhood was crawling with police officers and detectives as soon as it happened," Autry Lewis said.

Out to the garage

When the police showed up at the Paine House and asked Marina Oswald whether her husband had a rifle, she showed them to the garage where he had kept one wrapped in a blanket.

"They opened the blanket, but there was no rifle there," she told the Warren Commission. "Then, of course, I already knew it was Lee."

Marina Oswald and Paine were later fully cleared of any complicity and were considered to be cooperative in the ensuing investigations.

Irving officials said they've been interested in buying the house for about a decade. So when current owner Kimberly Short finally became ready to sell, the city jumped at the opportunity to secure what many see as a historic site – even if its significance is born from tragedy and infamy.

"As unfortunate as that incident was, it's still a very historical moment in the region of Dallas-Fort Worth," said Paul Gooch, Irving's community services director.

Interest remains

Under the agreement, Short is allowed to remain in the house for up to one year. She did not return phone calls seeking comment last week.

In a 2006 interview with The News, Short said she didn't mind the interest that passers-by had in her house. Just as long as they weren't sly about it.

"I know what you're doing," she said at the time. "It doesn't bother me. But don't be sneaky."

The $175,000 price tag the city agreed to pay is well above the $84,000 in value assigned by the Dallas Central Appraisal District. But Gears said $175,000 is a steal even if the city is just now exploring what they want to do with the house.

"Of course, DCAD is not going to include the historical significance of the property," he said.

As Autry Lewis sat on his front porch looking across West Fifth Street last week, he said he wasn't surprised the city made the move. While Dallas' Sixth Floor Museum is a point of national interest, Autry Lewis said the Paine House also still draws its fair share of visitors. Not that he minds too much.

"If I'm out here, I'll talk to them," he said.

Hmm -Mr. Lewis stated in the above article he observed Oswald "grab something wrapped in shipping paper from the garage" Was the garage door open? Were the windows in the garage large enough that Oswald's actions could be observed? Frankly I cannot recall the garage door having windows but would have to check it out. Now if he had said he observed Lee leave the house with something - well . . . .

And while there is discussion as to what Lee was carrying that morning - please recall the weather. It was misting rain enough for Wes to turn on his windshield wipers. Would rain drops leave any marks on the wrapping paper? Under a lab light - would one be able to detect a difference?

Just curious

Martha

[Don Jeffries]

I agree with you here. I think we need to examine all of Oswald's supposed actions on November 22, 1963 with an open mind. It's nice to know that more researchers are questioning the alleged Baker-Oswald confontation, for instance.

Frankly, I find most of what Oswald is supposed to have done following the assassination to be preposterous. Why did he leave the scene so quickly (officially at 12:33, without any evidence whatsoever for that supposition)? Walking in one direction, followed by taking a bus back in the opposite direction? Huh? Then a cab ride (after galantly offering it to another patron first), with a request that the baffled driver Whaley go past his rooming house, so he can walk back again in the opposite direction?

Why was shoe store employee Brewer so suspicious of someone who "ducked in" to his doorway briefly? To the extent that he followed him out and, although the cashier somehow didn't see him, witnessed Oswald sneaking into the theater?

The same skepticism should be extended towards Oswald's alleged comments during all those unrecorded interrogation sessions. Why would anyone-especially one maintaining his innocence-say something like, "you know how boys are- they get their gun," or whatever it was, for example? The notes by Fritz, and recollections by others, of what Oswald said in those sessions, are contradicted by his words in that all too short midnight press conference.

Oswald stated, at that press conference, that the "first he'd heard about" the assassination was from a reporter in the hallway. This seems a clear indication that he hadn't been questioned about the shooting of JFK during those early sessions. Why, then, did the testimony of those who were there indicate otherwise?

Oswald's primary concern, at that press conference, and in the snippets of conversation that were recorded as he was paraded around Dallas Police headquarters, was in quickly obtaining an attorney. He protested vigorously that he was being denied legal representation. How do we reconcile this with the testimony of Louis Nichols, the Dallas Bar official who visited Oswald in jail, to ensure his rights were not being violated? Nichols claimed that Oswald was not claiming to have been denied representation, and said "not now" in regards to obtaining a lawyer.

Curiously, while Oswald himself never mentioned John Abt's name, in those brief conversations in the hallway or at the midnight press conference, the authorities claimed he asked for Abt specifically, Ruth Paine testified that he wanted her to call Abt for him (and had the bizarre reaction of being offended by his request), and Nichols stated that Oswald mentioned Abt as well, during the Dallas Bar official's visit to his jail cell. Were these references to Abt a public ruse to associate Oswald further with communism, as Abt was famous for defending communists?

I've probably expounded too much here, and gone astray from the topic. I simply think we need to take every aspect of the official story with a huge grain of salt. With that in mind, I think it's appropriate to consider that perhaps Oswald stayed at his rooming house that Thursday night, and thus the entire story of going home unexpectedly, at an unaccustomed time, not to mention the curtain rod/paper bag aspect, was contrived.