Harry Dean: Memoirs

[Harry J.Dean]

Hey Lazar, I was looking at the 166 NARA FBI/CIA reports under the name Harry J, Dean...There are also 7 under just Harry Dean.

A few are secret or withheld and or restricted, but most are shown as open. It seems they begin in 1960?

I figure that with your considerable interest in this subject you will order the full reports, indicated by these notations at NARA. Such

future similar reports are also incoming according to NARA statements.

I was never interested it what is available or stated by either Intelligence Agency, simply because I had lived and still relive it all, but

JFK researchers and others I am certain will appreciate your undertaking this task.

[Ernie Lazar]

Well, Harry, I will first wait for the FBI to decide if they will process my "Public Interest Disclosure" FOIA request on you. I know the FBI still has some of your files. The FBI will also provide me with a list of any FBI file numbers which they have transferred to NARA.

Separately, I have also submitted a request for the Chicago field file on FPCC. Interestingly, John Rossen appears to still be alive and I couldn't find any death information concerning some of the other figures involved with the Chicago chapter.

After I get a response from the FBI, I will ask NARA to estimate the total pages for all FBI documents re: you in their possession. Last time I asked NARA (about 3 years ago), they did not offer the option of having documents copied onto a CD or DVD. Instead, only photocopies were available (at 75 cents per page). So, depending upon the total volume of documents, and whether or not NARA has changed their policy regarding CD/DVD's, I will make a decision regarding which documents or files to request.

[Paul Trejo]

<snip>

It is VERY significant that there was no checklist on Harry released previously because that is yet more evidence that Harry was never seriously considered by Chicago as a potential informant.

Again, Ernie,all this shows is that you have so far failed to find FBI documents about Harry Dean -- and instead of admitting that, you claim that "there was no checklist on Harry..."

Because Ernie Lazar never found it after years of searching, it can't exist -- what a laugh.

We've already seen cases last year in which a mountain of FBI documents suddenly appeared about Harry Dean -- and some of it admits that Harry Dean was a source of information for the Chicago FBI.

But you had been claiming for years that 'there was no FBI file on Harry.' And you had no shame in calling Harry Dean a xxxx because of the truths he told from 1965 until this very day.

Did you apologize? NEVER. Now your sole focus is trying to navigate through the ocean of this FBI informatoin on Harry to support your old, discredited claims that the FBI was never really interested in Harry as a source.

It's like you go around with blinders on. Your bias seems to be obvious to everybody but yourself.

I read that PDF you supplied -- the "Informant Checklist.PDF" -- which has nothing to do with Harry Dean (in the same way that many of the recent documents you've shared with this thread have nothing at all to do with Harry Dean. You're reaching, reaching reaching for analogies).

Your point is that you, Ernie Lazar, with all your FOIA requests and expenses and years of struggle, should have found the FBI "Informant Checklist" on Harry Dean by now -- and you haven't.

Rather than admit that you're fallible, however, you'd rather publish to the world your certainty that it doesn't exist -- it can't exist; otherwise Ernie Lazar could be mistaken!

This is obvious for all readers -- yet your only response is that I'm not an expert on FBI procedures as you are. But common sense knows that is no excuse for your continual blundering and your endless bias.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

<snip>

It is VERY significant that there was no checklist on Harry released previously because that is yet more evidence that Harry was never seriously considered by Chicago as a potential informant.

Again, Ernie,all this shows is that you have so far failed to find FBI documents about Harry Dean -- and instead of admitting that, you claim that "there was no checklist on Harry..."

Because Ernie Lazar never found it after years of searching, it can't exist -- what a laugh.

You totally lost me Paul. I have not spent "years" searching anything regarding Harry Dean so what are you referring to? Let's at least get our timeline correct ok? Then you can at least present factual criticisms if you want to.

1. I first heard the name Harry Dean circa late 2009 or early 2010 when I received emails from several people who asked me what I thought about his assertions regarding the JBS.

2. I responded to those emails by stating I never heard of Harry Dean. I then received follow-up replies which gave me a few details about what Harry claimed, i.e. that he had been a JBS member and he also was an FBI informant inside the JBS and he discovered a "JBS plot" to murder JFK.

3. I responded by stating that the FBI never had any official informant inside the JBS for two reasons (1) there was nothing the FBI wanted to know about the JBS which required inserting an informant into the JBS and (2) the FBI was not investigating the JBS because it did not have any information that the JBS was engaged in any criminal or subversive activities falling under FBI jurisdiction. Furthermore, I cited the 1977 letter by the Los Angeles Assistant Director -- which I scanned and posted online. [Oh--and I checked some of the books I have re: JFK's assassination and I could not find any reference to Harry in those either.]

4. That was the end of the matter for me for several months. THEN, I came across Education Forum. I attempted to create a profile so I could see what was being said about (and by) Harry but, at that time, I kept getting messages stating that the site was not accepting new members.

5. Eventually, I sent an email to John Simkin and I was able to create a profile. In June 2010 I posted a message regarding what I knew from my FOIA research into JBS files and other files which should have had references to Harry -- IF Harry's story was accurate.

6. From that point (June 2010) until you published your eBook (October 2013?) -- I performed NO RESEARCH of any kind regarding Harry. NONE.

7. After reading your eBook and exchanging private emails with you, I decided it might be fun to pursue this further. At some point (I don't recall the exact date), I discovered the Mary Ferrell website and I came across some FBI and CIA documents there re: Harry but I was not a member so I was limited to printing 4 documents per day. I shared what I discovered with everyone here.

8. In addition, in mid-November 2013, I submitted a "Public Interest Disclosure" FOIA request to the FBI on Harry. In December 2013 I submitted a different FOIA request which gives me an alternate method for obtaining specific FBI files which I know pertain to Harry -- but which I do not identify in my FOIA request as being on Harry.

9. What I have just summarized is the ENTIRE extent of my "research" concerning Harry Dean. So please stop misrepresenting it -- ok??

We've already seen cases last year in which a mountain of FBI documents suddenly appeared about Harry Dean -- and some of it admits that Harry Dean was a source of information for the Chicago FBI.

Can you please explain why you think this is significant? What do you mean by "source of information"? How do you define that? Do you make ANY kind of distinctions between different types or kinds of "sources of information" OR are they all the same to you?

But you had been claiming for years that 'there was no FBI file on Harry.' And you had no shame in calling Harry Dean a xxxx because of the truths he told from 1965 until this very day.

I would like to ask you a favor Paul. Please be VERY SPECIFIC here. QUOTE something I wrote "years" ago where I made the comment you now attribute to me and you even put in quotation marks.

Here is the link to my June 2010 message: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4269&page=9&hl=ernie1241#entry194732

Please QUOTE the exact sentence(s) which you think substantiate your claim that I said there was "no FBI file on Harry" (and notice you put that in quotation marks in your message as though you were quoting something I wrote. So please give everyone here the specific details to support your accusation.

Did you apologize? NEVER. Now your sole focus is trying to navigate through the ocean of this FBI informatoin on Harry to support your old, discredited claims that the FBI was never really interested in Harry as a source.

Paul -- it is not MY "claim". It is what Harry himself wrote in JUNE 1961 to JFK!

It's like you go around with blinders on. Your bias seems to be obvious to everybody but yourself.

I read that PDF you supplied -- the "Informant Checklist.PDF" -- which has nothing to do with Harry Dean (in the same way that many of the recent documents you've shared with this thread have nothing at all to do with Harry Dean. You're reaching, reaching reaching for analogies).

Paul---how can you say it has "nothing to do with Harry Dean?" Did you ask him if he ever sat down with his alleged case agents in Chicago (Mike Simon, J.B. Walker?) and did they ask Harry the questions which the checklist requires and give him the notices which the checklist requires? YES OR NO? Apparently, what you are attempting to say is that standard Bureau procedures when dealing with ALL informants do not apply to Harry Dean -- is that what you want us to believe?

Your point is that you, Ernie Lazar, with all your FOIA requests and expenses and years of struggle, should have found the FBI "Informant Checklist" on Harry Dean by now -- and you haven't.

NO--PAUL THAT IS NOT THE POINT! First of all, as previously noted, I have not spent "years" researching Harry Dean and I have NEVER pursued ANYTHING about him through FOIA requests or any other type of research until recently. Why must you always misrepresent the plain English meaning of what I have written?

What I am saying is the following:

1. Such a checklist would exist on Harry if he was ever an FBI informant -- because it was standard operating procedure (as the Chicago and San Francisco FBI field office memos I provided prove)

2. No such checklist is currently shown on the Mary Ferrell website -- which I certainly acknowledge is not definitive proof -- but that is nevertheless significant since Mark Allen obtained so many file documents on Harry

3. If you or Harry made an FOIA request on Harry -- that document would be released -- and, consequently, you would finally have PROOF of Harry's status which EVERYBODY would accept as indisputable and definitive.

Rather than admit that you're fallible, however, you'd rather publish to the world your certainty that it doesn't exist -- it can't exist; otherwise Ernie Lazar could be mistaken!

TOTALLY FALSE and STUPID COMMENT BY YOU

This is obvious for all readers -- yet your only response is that I'm not an expert on FBI procedures as you are. But common sense knows that is no excuse for your continual blundering and your endless bias.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

PAUL -- MY REPLIES APPEAR UNDERNEATH YOUR COMMENTS

[Ernie Lazar]

<snip>

It is VERY significant that there was no checklist on Harry released previously because that is yet more evidence that Harry was never seriously considered by Chicago as a potential informant.

Again, Ernie,all this shows is that you have so far failed to find FBI documents about Harry Dean -- and instead of admitting that, you claim that "there was no checklist on Harry..."

Because Ernie Lazar never found it after years of searching, it can't exist -- what a laugh.

We've already seen cases last year in which a mountain of FBI documents suddenly appeared about Harry Dean -- and some of it admits that Harry Dean was a source of information for the Chicago FBI.

But you had been claiming for years that 'there was no FBI file on Harry.' And you had no shame in calling Harry Dean a xxxx because of the truths he told from 1965 until this very day.

Did you apologize? NEVER. Now your sole focus is trying to navigate through the ocean of this FBI informatoin on Harry to support your old, discredited claims that the FBI was never really interested in Harry as a source.

It's like you go around with blinders on. Your bias seems to be obvious to everybody but yourself.

I read that PDF you supplied -- the "Informant Checklist.PDF" -- which has nothing to do with Harry Dean (in the same way that many of the recent documents you've shared with this thread have nothing at all to do with Harry Dean. You're reaching, reaching reaching for analogies).

Your point is that you, Ernie Lazar, with all your FOIA requests and expenses and years of struggle, should have found the FBI "Informant Checklist" on Harry Dean by now -- and you haven't.

Rather than admit that you're fallible, however, you'd rather publish to the world your certainty that it doesn't exist -- it can't exist; otherwise Ernie Lazar could be mistaken!

This is obvious for all readers -- yet your only response is that I'm not an expert on FBI procedures as you are. But common sense knows that is no excuse for your continual blundering and your endless bias.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

In further reply to Paul's deliberate falsehoods, I am copying below the final portion of my June 2010 message so everyone can read what I actually wrote instead of Paul's fictional account of what I have written regarding Harry Dean.

In my June 2010 message. I opened it by summarizing my FOIA research regarding the Birch Society and I then summarized standard FBI procedures regarding ALL of its actual informants. Then, I closed with this comment:

Given everything I have mentioned above, I would bring everyone's attention to the following facts:

1. There is no record of any kind whatsoever in any FBI HQ or field office file that Harry Dean ever was even considered as an informant much less accepted as one.

2. No official investigation of the JBS was ever opened by the FBI. There was a preliminary inquiry during 1959 and 1960 -- but once it was established that the JBS was an anti-communist organization which did not advocate or participate in criminal or subversive activities, there was no reason to "infiltrate" it.

3. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever concerning payments made to any "informant" within the JBS for expenses of any kind.

4. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever reflecting continuing periodic reports (verbal or written) by a specific "informant" whom the FBI authorized to "infiltrate" the JBS

Since I have acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials.

---------------

1. As this excerpt makes self-evident, my references to Harry Dean were in the context of JBS files (HQ and Los Angeles being the most relevant).

2. I did NOT ever write (as Paul falsely claims) that there was "no FBI file on Harry".

-a- First of all, there is no possible way for me to know such a thing because I had never done any FOIA research on Harry Dean as the subject--nor had anybody else---including (as it turns out) Harry himself and Paul!

-b- Second, the FBI opened "files" on millions of people -- and sometimes a "file" contained nothing more than one or two dozen pages consisting of inquiries received about that person and Bureau "files confidential" replies. So, knowing that, I would never make the type of statement which Paul attributes to me about Harry or about anybody else.

-c- What I have stated repeatedly (and Paul deliberately, continuously, and maliciously misrepresents) is that there are no references in any JBS file or JBS-related file to anybody who matches Harry's description.

One of the ways we distinguish rational versus irrational people is by their ability to make careful distinctions. Repeatedly in this thread, Paul has demonstrated his inability to make such distinctions. For example:

(1) Paul cannot and does not distinguish between unsolicited information given to the FBI by phone or in person or by mail versus information obtained by the FBI as a result of its direction and instruction and encouragement

(2) Paul cannot and does not distinguish between verifiable documentary factual evidence versus unproven and unprovable statements made by somebody who claims to be, and Paul considers to be, an "eyewitness"

(3) Paul cannot and does not distinguish between an "attack" versus careful examination of evidence--especially when that examination requires asking probing questions. Instead, as Paul admits, he prefers giving the "benefit of the doubt" to any source whose testimony is disputed or subject to interpretation

(4) Paul cannot and does not distinguish between focusing one's research upon only documents which Paul considers adverse to Harry versus focusing one's research upon ALL documents which pertain to Harry -- which is what I have done and shared here. IF I ever find FBI documents or other documents that support Harry's story, I will be happy to share those documents too. But Paul prefers to deliberately LIE about my motivation instead of performing the type of genuine research which is required of any serious student.

(5) And as the most recent message by Paul reveals (yet again) Paul cannot and does not distinguish between making the comment that there is "no FBI file on Harry" versus somebody making the comment that there is no reference in JBS-related files to somebody matching Harry's description or in other files I have in my possession which should contain such references IF Harry's story is accurate (such as, for instance, Minutemen).

Incidentally, a while back I asked Harry if he joined the Minutemen under his own name and if he paid dues to them. The reason I asked is because I have a Minutemen membership list and Harry's name does not appear on it. However, this particular list was limited to dues-paying members.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

NEW INFORMATION RE: HARRY's FBI FILES

Today I received notices from the FBI regarding the following FBI files pertaining to Harry Dean:

TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 94-54427 (which is 1977 HQ main file concerning inquiry by Cong. John Rousselot about Harry)

HQ 62-109068 (which is a HQ main file on Harry -- and this file consolidated documents from another HQ file opened on Harry i.e HQ 62-109217

DESTROYED

Chicago 100-38257 (main field file on Harry was destroyed May 1990)

I have not heard anything yet regarding Harry's Los Angeles field file (100-12933).

I will be contacting NARA to determine the number of pages involved and the cost for obtaining the two files listed above. I'll keep everyone posted.

Postscript

I have not mentioned this previously, but another reason why living individuals (especially anyone involved in historical controversies) should always request government agency files pertaining to them (or authorize another party to obtain them via notarized affidavit) -- even if the individual does not have any personal curiosity regarding what those files contain, is because by making such a request, the originating agency would suspend any pending destruction of documents or files and suspend any pending transfer of files to NARA. In addition, when the originating agency starts processing the requested files, it will refer documents that were created by other agencies to those agencies for review and release (such as CIA or State Department documents located in FBI files or vice versa). Consequently, primary source historical records can be preserved and not lost forever.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

...Given everything I have mentioned above, I would bring everyone's attention to the following facts:

1. There is no record of any kind whatsoever in any FBI HQ or field office file that Harry Dean ever was even considered as an informant much less accepted as one.

2. No official investigation of the JBS was ever opened by the FBI. There was a preliminary inquiry during 1959 and 1960 -- but once it was established that the JBS was an anti-communist organization which did not advocate or participate in criminal or subversive activities, there was no reason to "infiltrate" it.

3. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever concerning payments made to any "informant" within the JBS for expenses of any kind.

4. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever reflecting continuing periodic reports (verbal or written) by a specific "informant" whom the FBI authorized to "infiltrate" the JBS

Since I have acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials...

Well, dear readers, my responses to Ernie are numbered:

(1) We have plenty of FBI records that acknowledge the FBI receiving information - gladly - from Harry Dean. So Ernie is simply living in denial of the facts, to avoid having to apologize to Harry Dean for calling him a xxxx for several years.

(2) Harry Dean never claimed that the FBI opened an official investigation of the JBS, but Ernie continues -- after all these years -- to insinuate that Harry claimed that. Harry's claim, from 1965 until the present time, is that the FBI asked Harry personally about individual members of the JBS, whom they feared might also be involved with Fidel Castro in some illegal manner.

Since the FBI knew that Harry Dean was (2.1) a former Secretary of the FPCC; and (2.2) an informer to the FBI regarding the FPCC in Chicago; they asked Harry for this consideration. Harry obliged them. However, after Harry Dean decided to go public with his story in early 1965, the FBI began a series of attacks on Harry Dean that amount to persecution. Ernie Lazar continues to believe the content of those attacks, and blatantly ignores the contrary FBI evidence even though it is published by the FBI themselves.

(3) Harry specifically and repeatedly said that he requested not one nickel of any kind whatsoever as payment for his information -- it was entirely a patriotic duty. The FBI even has documents admitting this -- and Ernie has those documents. But Ernie refuses to apologize to Harry Dean.

(4) There are still documents withheld by the FBI regaring Harry Dean. We have not yet seen all the FBI documents that are withheld -- and in fact we have not yet seen all the FBI documents that have already been made public!

Although it is clear to me that Ernie Lazar should publicly apologize to Harry Dean for calling him a xxxx in public for several years -- it is equally clear that Ernie will hold out until the very last document by the FBI has been published, hoping against hope that he will never need to apologize to save his honor.

No, instead, to this very day, despite reviewing contradictory FBI documents on Harry Dean, Ernie Lazar still has the nerve to say: "It is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his 'FBI' association in order to inflate his credentials."

Ernie keeps putting off his moral duty to apologize to Harry -- but time marches on.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 30, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

NEW INFORMATION RE: HARRY's FBI FILES

Today I received notices from the FBI regarding the following FBI files pertaining to Harry Dean:

TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 94-54427 (which is 1977 HQ main file concerning inquiry by Cong. John Rousselot about Harry)

HQ 62-109068 (which is a HQ main file on Harry -- and this file consolidated documents from another HQ file opened on Harry i.e HQ 62-109217

DESTROYED

Chicago 100-38257 (main field file on Harry was destroyed May 1990)

I have not heard anything yet regarding Harry's Los Angeles field file (100-38257).

I will be contacting NARA to determine the number of pages involved and the cost for obtaining the two files listed above. I'll keep everyone posted.

Postscript

I have not mentioned this previously, but another reason why living individuals (especially anyone involved in historical controversies) should always request government agency files pertaining to them (or authorize another party to obtain them via notarized affidavit) -- even if the individual does not have any personal curiosity regarding what those files contain, is because by making such a request, the originating agency would suspend any pending destruction of documents or files and suspend any pending transfer of files to NARA. In addition, when the originating agency starts processing the requested files, it will refer documents that were created by other agencies to those agencies for review and release (such as CIA or State Department documents located in FBI files or vice versa). Consequently, primary source historical records can be preserved and not lost forever.

Well, Ernie, we've already seen some of these "new" files regarding Harry Dean, haven't we?

HQ 94-54427 - This 1977 FBI headquarters main file concerning inquiry by Congressman John Rousselot about Harry has already been revealed in part on this very thread. Congressman Rousselot wrote to the FBI demanding to know if Harry was a secret agent of the FBI, and demanded to see all the files that the FBI had about Harry Dean.

The FBI told Congressman Rousselot in no uncertain terms that Harry Dean was at no time ever a paid agent of the FBI. Beyond that, they told Rousselot that the FBI would never share any files on private citizens with anybody. So they sent Rousselot away empty handed.

The FBI did not bother to ask why Rousselot came to them in such a panic. They just let the matter drop. But the critical question in this regard -- especially given the events of 1965 when Harry Dean first went public with his information about General Edwin Walker, Loran Hall and Congressman John Rousselot regarding the assassination of JFK, must be taken into account by impartial researchers.

As for the Chicago 100-38257 file, the main FBI field file on Harry Dean, I am shocked that it was destroyed in May 1990. I note for the record that this was a year before Harry Dean wrote his manuscript, Crosstrails.

Regarding the plausibility that the FBI might destroy further records about Harry Dean, Ernie, you are, strangely, the best person to ask here in this regard. What -- step by step -- could Harry Dean do in order to request his personal FBI files in the next few weeks?

Even though we sharply disagree on historical matters, Ernie, still I've publicly credited your efforts obtaining the critical FBI records about Harry Dean that we now have, and giving real body to the claims made by Harry Dean since 1965. So, since you know how the FBI operates; what exactly -- step by step -- should Harry Dean write to the FBI in this regard?

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 30, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

NEW QUESTION FOR HARRY:

1. Harry, on 4/1/64 you telephoned Sen. James O. Eastland (Chairman, U.S. Senate Internal Security Subcommittee)

2. On 4/2/64, you sent a telegram to Sen. Eastland to confirm your previous day's phone conversation with him.

3. On 10/14/66 the office of your U.S. Senator (George Murphy) sent an inquiry to the FBI concerning you. Murphy's office sent the FBI some background information about you with their inquiry.

4. Do you recall if you sent a typed letter to Sen. Murphy in which you presented a summary of your anti-Castro activities and in which you mentioned your 1964 phone and telegram contacts with Senator Eastland?

[Ernie Lazar]

NEW INFORMATION RE: HARRY's FBI FILES

Today I received notices from the FBI regarding the following FBI files pertaining to Harry Dean:

TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 94-54427 (which is 1977 HQ main file concerning inquiry by Cong. John Rousselot about Harry)

HQ 62-109068 (which is a HQ main file on Harry -- and this file consolidated documents from another HQ file opened on Harry i.e HQ 62-109217

DESTROYED

Chicago 100-38257 (main field file on Harry was destroyed May 1990)

I have not heard anything yet regarding Harry's Los Angeles field file (100-38257).

I will be contacting NARA to determine the number of pages involved and the cost for obtaining the two files listed above. I'll keep everyone posted.

Postscript

I have not mentioned this previously, but another reason why living individuals (especially anyone involved in historical controversies) should always request government agency files pertaining to them (or authorize another party to obtain them via notarized affidavit) -- even if the individual does not have any personal curiosity regarding what those files contain, is because by making such a request, the originating agency would suspend any pending destruction of documents or files and suspend any pending transfer of files to NARA. In addition, when the originating agency starts processing the requested files, it will refer documents that were created by other agencies to those agencies for review and release (such as CIA or State Department documents located in FBI files or vice versa). Consequently, primary source historical records can be preserved and not lost forever.

Well, Ernie, we've already seen some of these "new" files regarding Harry Dean, haven't we?

No--you have seen some specific serials which appear in those files. See next comment.

HQ 94-54427 - This 1977 FBI headquarters main file concerning inquiry by Congressman John Rousselot about Harry has already been revealed in part on this very thread. Congressman Rousselot wrote to the FBI demanding to know if Harry was a secret agent of the FBI, and demanded to see all the files that the FBI had about Harry Dean.

The FBI told Congressman Rousselot in no uncertain terms that Harry Dean was at no time ever a paid agent of the FBI. Beyond that, they told Rousselot that the FBI would never share any files on private citizens with anybody. So they sent Rousselot away empty handed.

There are at least 30 serials in HQ 94-54427. We have seen only one serial (#30).

The FBI did not bother to ask why Rousselot came to them in such a panic. They just let the matter drop. But the critical question in this regard -- especially given the events of 1965 when Harry Dean first went public with his information about General Edwin Walker, Loran Hall and Congressman John Rousselot regarding the assassination of JFK, must be taken into account by impartial researchers.

Actually, according to Harry, he "first went public" by publishing his "records" and recollections starting in January 1964 -- not, as you claim, 1965.

I have a document in which Harry states that he gave his material to "organizations, individuals, and government officials" for the purpose of clearing his name and to inform "interested as well as not interested people in what the Communists have done to America along subversive lines and that of assassination..." Harry also declared that by doing this (starting January 1964) people "across the nation were made aware of the plans of the enemies of America who work from within and without."

As for the Chicago 100-38257 file, the main FBI field file on Harry Dean, I am shocked that it was destroyed in May 1990. I note for the record that this was a year before Harry Dean wrote his manuscript, Crosstrails.

I often confront this situation where field files have been destroyed but it is very unusual for any "informant" file to be destroyed (in fact, I cannot think of any example). This means that if Harry was an FBI informant, there would have to be another Chicago file -- most probably a file that originally may have had a 66-prefix which later was converted to a 134-prefix.

I have a theory about why they destroyed Harry's Chicago file which you, of course, will not accept because it is inconvenient to your narrative. In any event, HQ files usually contain numerous field office memos and reports and other material -- so it may still be possible to re-construct all or most of the Chicago field file. [incidentally, I re-checked my index for Harry's HQ main file 62-109068 (which incorporates what was originally HQ 62-109217). It looks like the total number of pages for all serials in that file is 126.]

Regarding the plausibility that the FBI might destroy further records about Harry Dean, Ernie, you are, strangely, the best person to ask here in this regard. What -- step by step -- could Harry Dean do in order to request his personal FBI files in the next few weeks?

Even though we sharply disagree on historical matters, Ernie, still I've publicly credited your efforts obtaining the critical FBI records about Harry Dean that we now have, and giving real body to the claims made by Harry Dean since 1965. So, since you know how the FBI operates; what exactly -- step by step -- should Harry Dean write to the FBI in this regard?

Harry should submit a request for all records (HQ main files, field office main files (be specific about which ones you want--i.e. Chicago, Los Angeles, and I would include Indianapolis, Detroit, Oklahoma City, and Legat-Ottawa Canada). Also request release of all 1A, sub-A, or 1B files, plus cross-references which mention Harry Dean. ALSO: request all search slips used by FBI to find responsive documents and request that the FBI provide ALL file numbers opened on Harry---even if those files subsequently were closed, destroyed, or transferred to NARA

I would also provide any aliases used by Harry -- along with his FBI id number, i.e. #4657880. I would include brief details regarding the name (and location) of any FBI Special Agent with whom Harry had contacts. I would provide birth/death info on key people who might be mentioned in responsive documents such as Rousselot, Galbadon, Loran Hall, Edwin Walker, Juan Orta, etc. Then, Harry must attach a notarized affidavit authorizing release either to himself or to another party --such as yourself. Everything can be emailed to: : foiparequest@ic.fbi.gov

OR use snail mail to:

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

ATTN: RIDS SECTION - FOIA REQUESTS

170 MARCEL DRIVE

WINCHESTER VA 22602-4843

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

PAUL -- My replies appear underneath your comments.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

...Given everything I have mentioned above, I would bring everyone's attention to the following facts:

1. There is no record of any kind whatsoever in any FBI HQ or field office file that Harry Dean ever was even considered as an informant much less accepted as one.

2. No official investigation of the JBS was ever opened by the FBI. There was a preliminary inquiry during 1959 and 1960 -- but once it was established that the JBS was an anti-communist organization which did not advocate or participate in criminal or subversive activities, there was no reason to "infiltrate" it.

3. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever concerning payments made to any "informant" within the JBS for expenses of any kind.

4. There are no documents of any kind whatsoever reflecting continuing periodic reports (verbal or written) by a specific "informant" whom the FBI authorized to "infiltrate" the JBS

Since I have acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials...

Well, dear readers, my responses to Ernie are numbered:

(1) We have plenty of FBI records that acknowledge the FBI receiving information - gladly - from Harry Dean. So Ernie is simply living in denial of the facts, to avoid having to apologize to Harry Dean for calling him a xxxx for several years.

Paul, I sincerely want to believe that you just do not understand this point so I will try once again. Let me put this in Q&A form so that, perhaps, it will be much clearer.

1. Did Harry ever "give information" to the FBI in Chicago or anyplace else? And did the FBI "accept it"?

A: YES. Harry, on his own volition, telephoned the FBI office in Chicago in August 1960. He did not identify himself on his first contact. During this phone conversation, Harry told the FBI that he had been elected Recording Secretary of the Chicago chapter of FPCC. Then, later in August, Harry called the FBI again and this time he gave his name and address and employment (in Whiting Indiana).

During this second phone conversation, Harry furnished info concerning the leadership of FPCC and Harry stated that he would not object to being interviewed by FBI Agents if they wanted to do so. There is nothing unusual about this type of FBI contact. TENS OF THOUSANDS of Americans contact the FBI every year to report or share raw "information". The FBI "accepted" every such phone call and every such in-person visitor and every piece of mail and every telegram and it almost always recorded such contacts on a standard form which the FBI used to summarize all contacts with private citizens or other government agencies. BUT this does not make EVERY ONE of those TENS OF THOUSANDS of Americans "FBI informants" -- which is what Paul refuses to understand.

THEN -- FBI-Chicago followed customary FBI procedure. It searched its files for any information re: Harry Dean but it did not find anything at the time of Harry's first contact. HOWEVER, a confidential informant told the FBI that Harry was a dues-paying member of the FPCC.

THEN -- in September 1960, FBI-Chicago started conducting an inquiry into the background of Harry Dean -- as was also standard procedure. They asked the FBI-Indianapolis field office for info on Harry.

During that background check, the FBI contacted the Whiting, Indiana Police Department since Harry was living and self-employed in Whiting. The Whiting PD told the FBI that they believed Harry was using various aliases such as Gordon Hunt and George R, Baker. The Whiting Indiana Police Department also told the FBI that Harry had an outstanding warrant for his arrest on bad check charges. IN ADDITION, the Whiting PD had obtained an identification record on Harry from the Detroit Police Department and that record revealed more very derogatory personal information about Harry's past problems with law enforcement and other matters.

In December 1960, Harry again telephoned the Chicago FBI field office. He reported that he had been residing in Detroit for the previous two months but had returned to Chicago. He again refused to divulge his local address. Harry continued to call the FBI Chicago office on several more occasions -- and he provided unsolicited raw information which Harry thought the FBI might be interested in with respect to FPCC, the 26th of July Movement, and Cuban nationals.

On June 7, 1961, two FBI Agents contacted Harry and told him that Chicago "did not desire his assistance". As one FBI summary memo about Harry points out:

"Dean was not asked to continue in his position with the FPCC, and in view of the information developed by the Indianapolis office in September 1960 regarding Dean's background, no encouragement was given to Dean to continue his connection with the FPCC...and although he occasionally furnished information telephonically regarding the FPCC to (Chicago), his activities were never directed nor encouraged in any way. "

As J. Edgar Hoover informed the Los Angeles field office in February 1964:

"Subject's contacts with Chicago FBI office were unsolicited and his activities were not directed by Bureau. He was interviewed by Bureau Agents for purpose of setting him straight re: his contacts with Chicago office and that Bureau does not issue or deny clearances of any type."

2. WHY did the FBI in Chicago want background information about Harry? What was the FBI's attitude toward Harry after they completed their September 1960 background check on him?

A: Standard FBI procedure (see section 107 of FBI's Manual of Instructions) required field offices to conduct background investigations when dealing with somebody who expressed interest in providing confidential information to the FBI -- particularly if the person proposed to provide information on an ongoing basis. Why? Because the Bureau was exceptionally concerned about reliability and character of its informants. The FBI wanted to know answers to these type of questions:

-a- Could a prospective informant be trusted?

-b- Was a prospective informant likely to reveal his/her association with the FBI and perhaps compromise an investigation or even reveal another asset being used by the FBI?

-c- If an informant or confidential source had to appear in court or in administrative proceedings, would their testimony be credible or subject to witness impeachment?

-d- Would an informant be subjected to (or influenced by) any outside adverse pressures -- such as financial problems, marital problems, employment problems, mental instability etc -- which might even be exploited by enemies of the U.S. who wanted to find people to infiltrate the FBI or provide information about FBI procedures and assets?

3. What was the basis for Ernie referring to Harry as a xxxx? Is it what Paul Trejo claims?

A: The basis was multi-dimensional. First, Harry had made assertions which were patently false such as referring to certain individuals as JBS members who never joined the JBS. Then, Harry libeled the entire LDS Church. And most importantly, FBI files in Ernie's possession contained no references whatsoever to Harry or to anybody matching Harry's description AND the Assistant Director of the Los Angeles FBI field office categorically denied that Harry was EVER an informant, or EVER was instructed or encouraged by the FBI to do anything for them.

Paul constantly, deliberately, and maliciously strives to misrepresent this as me refusing to acknowledge that Harry provided "information" to the FBI. But that has NEVER been disputed. What this dispute is about is whether or not Harry is being accurate, truthful, and factual about being an FBI "informant" or "undercover" operative or whatever other term you want to use -- who was instructed or directed or encouraged by the FBI to provide them with specific information about individuals and organizations -- including the JBS.

(2) Harry Dean never claimed that the FBI opened an official investigation of the JBS, but Ernie continues -- after all these years -- to insinuate that Harry claimed that. Harry's claim, from 1965 until the present time, is that the FBI asked Harry personally about individual members of the JBS, whom they feared might also be involved with Fidel Castro in some illegal manner.

Once again, Paul attributes something to me that is NOT accurate -- which is why Paul never QUOTES my original statements. This allows Paul to repeatedly INVENT the most egregious falsehoods about what I have stated in writing on numerous occasions. So I am always placed in the position of first correcting Paul's deliberate LIES, and then I QUOTE what I actually have stated.

I never once accused Harry (or insinuated that Harry) had claimed that the FBI opened an official investigation on the JBS. NOT ONCE. NOT EVER. Paul is a xxxx. Paul just INVENTED that---because he has no credible response to what I have actually written repeatedly! What I have repeatedly stated is that Harry was never (as he falsely claims) an informant for the FBI inside the JBS at the instruction or encouragement of the FBI. Period. OK, Paul, now repeat your DELIBERATE LIE again.

Since the FBI knew that Harry Dean was (2.1) a former Secretary of the FPCC; and (2.2) an informer to the FBI regarding the FPCC in Chicago; they asked Harry for this consideration. Harry obliged them. However, after Harry Dean decided to go public with his story in early 1965, the FBI began a series of attacks on Harry Dean that amount to persecution. Ernie Lazar continues to believe the content of those attacks, and blatantly ignores the contrary FBI evidence even though it is published by the FBI themselves.

No, Paul, Harry was never an "informer" -- unless you dumb-down the definition of that term to include every single person who ever contacts the FBI for any reason whatsoever.

Since Paul has never identified the "attacks" which he attributes to the FBI nor identified what he considers the specific "contrary evidence" which was "published by the FBI themselves" one cannot respond appropriately BUT when I asked Paul to give us a list of such "evidence" he refused --(as you might expect when somebody is lying) --so....there is no reason to believe anything which Paul has written UNLESS he provides specific examples of what he means by "attacks" and "persecution". One should keep in mind that adverse information, if factual, is not "persecution". For example: describing President Clinton as a perjurer and serial adulterer is not "persecution". It is a unpleasant fact.

(3) Harry specifically and repeatedly said that he requested not one nickel of any kind whatsoever as payment for his information -- it was entirely a patriotic duty. The FBI even has documents admitting this -- and Ernie has those documents. But Ernie refuses to apologize to Harry Dean.

Apologize for what? I have never previously written that Harry was paid for anything.

Nor do I care if he was paid since actual informants were often paid for their expenses and services. I mention this merely because it provides an avenue for research if Harry was ever paid anything because meticulous records are kept about such matters and, in fact, FBI field offices had to periodically renew their authorization from HQ to pay informants AND they had to itemize what those payments were for (such as: travel, member dues, publications, fees for attending events, etc).

However, recently I noticed that Harry made a cryptic comment in message #101 (August 28, 2005) here in this thread which seems to indicate that he is saying that he was paid "expenses" for "reporting to U.S. intelligence".

(4) There are still documents withheld by the FBI regaring Harry Dean. We have not yet seen all the FBI documents that are withheld -- and in fact we have not yet seen all the FBI documents that have already been made public!

Although it is clear to me that Ernie Lazar should publicly apologize to Harry Dean for calling him a xxxx in public for several years -- it is equally clear that Ernie will hold out until the very last document by the FBI has been published, hoping against hope that he will never need to apologize to save his honor.

Paul has so many fabrications in his web of accusations against me I do not know how to respond to all of them. The only "withheld" FBI documents are those which neither Paul or Harry has ever bothered to request so it is particularly galling for Paul to whine and moan about "withheld documents". I have given my reasons for referring to Harry as a xxxx. Significantly, Paul has never addressed any of those reasons and, instead, Paul prefers to invent assertions which he then falsely attributes to me. I am not "holding out" for anything. I have repeatedly stated that if I find anything which changes what I currently believe, I will be happy to share it. Unlike Paul, I am NOT emotionally invested in Harry Dean. Whatever is true -- is true -- period. My position is that based upon all available evidence, there is no reason to believe Harry's narrative -- at least in terms of his claims regarding his being an "informant" or "undercover" operative for the FBI about the JBS or its members. Nor have I seen anything to support Harry's contentions regarding Wesley Grapp. Significantly, neither Paul or Harry can present EVEN ONE document to support Harry's story. Nor can either of them provide EVEN ONE person who corroborates Harry's narrative about the JBS or about Grapp. And despite this total absolute absence of confirming data -- Paul has the gall to criticize my position!!

No, instead, to this very day, despite reviewing contradictory FBI documents on Harry Dean, Ernie Lazar still has the nerve to say: "It is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his 'FBI' association in order to inflate his credentials."

Correct...except you have never identified the allegedly "contradictory FBI documents" which makes your argument absurd.

Ernie keeps putting off his moral duty to apologize to Harry -- but time marches on.

Paul keeps acting as a credulous shill for everything Harry Dean thinks or says -- and time marches on!

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

PAUL -- My replies appear underneath your comments.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

NEW INFORMATION RE: HARRY's FBI FILES

Today I received notices from the FBI regarding the following FBI files pertaining to Harry Dean:

TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 94-54427 (which is 1977 HQ main file concerning inquiry by Cong. John Rousselot about Harry)

HQ 62-109068 (which is a HQ main file on Harry -- and this file consolidated documents from another HQ file opened on Harry i.e HQ 62-109217

DESTROYED

Chicago 100-38257 (main field file on Harry was destroyed May 1990)

I have not heard anything yet regarding Harry's Los Angeles field file (100-38257).

I will be contacting NARA to determine the number of pages involved and the cost for obtaining the two files listed above. I'll keep everyone posted.

Postscript

I have not mentioned this previously, but another reason why living individuals (especially anyone involved in historical controversies) should always request government agency files pertaining to them (or authorize another party to obtain them via notarized affidavit) -- even if the individual does not have any personal curiosity regarding what those files contain, is because by making such a request, the originating agency would suspend any pending destruction of documents or files and suspend any pending transfer of files to NARA. In addition, when the originating agency starts processing the requested files, it will refer documents that were created by other agencies to those agencies for review and release (such as CIA or State Department documents located in FBI files or vice versa). Consequently, primary source historical records can be preserved and not lost forever.

Well, Ernie, we've already seen some of these "new" files regarding Harry Dean, haven't we?

HQ 94-54427 - This 1977 FBI headquarters main file concerning inquiry by Congressman John Rousselot about Harry has already been revealed in part on this very thread. Congressman Rousselot wrote to the FBI demanding to know if Harry was a secret agent of the FBI, and demanded to see all the files that the FBI had about Harry Dean.

The FBI told Congressman Rousselot in no uncertain terms that Harry Dean was at no time ever a paid agent of the FBI. Beyond that, they told Rousselot that the FBI would never share any files on private citizens with anybody. So they sent Rousselot away empty handed.

The FBI did not bother to ask why Rousselot came to them in such a panic. They just let the matter drop. But the critical question in this regard -- especially given the events of 1965 when Harry Dean first went public with his information about General Edwin Walker, Loran Hall and Congressman John Rousselot regarding the assassination of JFK, must be taken into account by impartial researchers.

As for the Chicago 100-38257 file, the main FBI field file on Harry Dean, I am shocked that it was destroyed in May 1990. I note for the record that this was a year before Harry Dean wrote his manuscript, Crosstrails.

Regarding the plausibility that the FBI might destroy further records about Harry Dean, Ernie, you are, strangely, the best person to ask here in this regard. What -- step by step -- could Harry Dean do in order to request his personal FBI files in the next few weeks?

Even though we sharply disagree on historical matters, Ernie, still I've publicly credited your efforts obtaining the critical FBI records about Harry Dean that we now have, and giving real body to the claims made by Harry Dean since 1965. So, since you know how the FBI operates; what exactly -- step by step -- should Harry Dean write to the FBI in this regard?

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

I wish to add one postscript to my previous replies to your recent messages. A while back, I stated that as a public service, I was thinking about compiling a "greatest hits" of your honest mistakes, deliberate lies and misrepresentations in this thread.

Your current messages have made me so angry because of your continuous deliberate lies about what I have written repeatedly, that I have now started compiling the list -- which I will share here sometime in the not-too-distant future.

[Ernie Lazar]

Leaving aside all of our other disputes about Harry's story, there are many questions that often arise when one carefully examines various FBI serials which mention Harry.

For example:

On February 19, 1964, J. Edgar Hoover sent an inquiry to the FBI-Los Angeles field office concerning Harry Dean which was in reply to a Los Angeles letter to HQ dated January 28, 1964. In the January Los Angeles letter to HQ, they referred to Harry's comments about Frank Vega.

However, HQ replied to Los Angeles by giving them instructions (copied below). In the following text, "subject" refers to Harry and "relet" is BureauSpeak for "in reference to letter" sent by Los Angeles to HQ)

"On basis of data in relet, Bureau is unable to identify Frank Vega. Expeditiously submit data furnished by subject re Vega in letterhead memorandum under Vega caption. Memorandum should include identifying data, reason Dean believes Vega to have been with Cuban G-2 and period Vega was reported to be in New York City. New York upon receipt of above data should initiate investigation in an attempt to determine Vega's activities and contacts in the United States as well as his present whereabouts."

Remember --- this is in 1964.

However, Harry claims that when he returned from his June 1960 trip to Cuba during which he was relentlessly interrogated by Vega:

"I returned to the USA badly shaken and I went straight to the FBI for debriefing. Men from the CIA also attended this meeting. I told them everything that happened and gave them all my photographs"

And during 1961, Harry declared that:

"Also during this time, when anti-Castro Cubans became completely befuddled by Castro’s moves, the FBI asked for my help. Cuban spies had been moving in and out of the USA with alarming freedom, and this included Che Guevara himself, it was believed. Their main aim was to buy weapons on the black market. The FBI asked me to try to spot him in their nationwide photographs. I failed to find Che – however, I did spot Francisco Vega in New York City, and I handed him over, and that was a satisfying feeling of retribution."

1. Naturally, one has to wonder why FBI HQ could not identify Vega when his name was brought to their attention in 1964 by Los Angeles recounting Harry's story?

2. One has to wonder why HQ instructed both Los Angeles and New York field offices in 1964 to find out who Vega was and why Dean believed Vega was in Cuban G-2 when, according to Harry, he gave the FBI all that info back in June 1960 AND he "handed over" Vega in 1961 to the FBI in New York City!

3. Lastly, one has to wonder why FBI HQ had no records to establish that Harry had allegedly previously (1960-1961) provided information about Vega -- and why the FBI did not seem to recognize Vega being connected to Cuban G-2?

Keep in mind something VERY important.

By 1960, the FBI had added a category to its Security Index to capture data about pro-Castro Cubans in the United States. In other words, ANY credible evidence regarding someone in the U.S. (citizen or foreigner or foreign government representative) who was pro-Castro would automatically trigger a formal FBI investigation AND they were then added to the FBI Security Index. In fact, a specific Security Index Card on such individuals was prepared by the investigating field office and then sent to HQ.

For interested parties, I attach two Security Index documents which discuss FBI procedures for adding "pro-Cuban" individuals to the FBI Security Index. Hoover also sent letters to the Attorney General advising him of what was being done with respect to adding such individuals to the Security Index.

Security Index-Cuba.PDF

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

INFO RE: Harry's Los Angeles file:

Received another letter today from FBI advising that Harry's Los Angeles file (105-12933) has also been transferred to NARA pursuant to the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992. I have sent NARA another message to determine the cost for obtaining it.

[Ernie Lazar]

FIRST INTERIM RELEASE OF FBI FILES ON EDWIN A. WALKER

Attached are the first sections of FBI HQ file 116-165494 on Edwin Walker. Unfortunately, about 47 serials are missing from these sections because they were transferred to NARA. When I originally received all FBI HQ files on Walker over 20 years ago (as paper docs), there were more than 2600 pages released. Only a fraction of that material is still currently available from the FBI.

The Philadelphia file attached is not particularly interesting except for the news clippings which report Walker's priceless comment that he could find more good Americans in the KKK than in Americans For Democratic Action or Anti-Defamation League.

I still have outstanding Walker requests for FBI field offices in Chicago, El Paso, Jackson, Miami, Newark, New York City, New Orleans, Tampa, and Washington field. Not sure how many of these files still exist but I will post them here in the future if they are processed by FBI (assuming they have not been transferred to NARA).

Ernie

Walker, Edwin-HQ-1.pdf

Walker, Edwin-HQ-2.pdf

Walker, Edwin-Philadelphia-1.pdf