Ernie Lazar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Because so many documents pertaining to the JFK assassination are buried in files which most researchers are not aware of, I thought readers of this thread might be interested in the attached 8-page serial which summarizes the questions that author William Manchester submitted to J. Edgar Hoover re: Oswald/JFK and the assassination and then Hoover's answers to those questions. Hoover-Manchester.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Among the serials which were not included in my previous message were two which I originally received as paper documents over 20 years ago. I am attaching them because of their significance. The first is a 1/18/65 memo concerning a Walker speech to the Americans For The Preservation of the White Race. J. Edgar Hoover handwrote "Walker is nuts" on the second page. The second is a 23-page July 1964 FBI "Correlation Summary" on Walker. This is particularly useful for anybody doing research on Walker because it reflects all references in FBI files (up to that point) regarding Walker. Most of the other missing serials are reports concerning Oswald's attempted murder of Walker and interviews with Marina Oswald. Ernie Walker, 92,99.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Attached is the 5/1/67 "Correlation Summary" (22pp) compiled by the FBI on Walker -- which updates the previous edition from 1964 (previously uploaded). This serial (#126) was not included in the Walker HQ main file which I previously posted. Due to the file upload limitations here on EF, I can only post a maximum of 13MB of additional files -- so, I will probably limit future file uploads to only Harry Dean files when I receive them (up to that 13MB limit). Walker-126.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I can't find the thread but when looking into MAD magazine and Walker (and Watts, Brig Gen) there was one document that from memory was from around the end of the fifties where Sullivan (?) finds Walker (or Watts) (Watts and Walker were together on this one) a nuisance at a meeting and writes something along the line 'this guy is nuts'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I can't find the thread but when looking into MAD magazine and Walker (and Watts, Brig Gen) there was one document that from memory was from around the end of the fifties where Sullivan (?) finds Walker (or Watts) (Watts and Walker were together on this one) a nuisance at a meeting and writes something along the line 'this guy is nuts'. Actually, there are numerous serials in Walker's FBI files which quote various individuals who had contacts with Walker (even some of his admirers) who describe Walker as incoherent or mentally unbalanced. His file also includes the report by the psychiatrist who evaluated Walker. There is a very interesting observation in his FBI file about Walker's personality. This observation was made by a "confidential informant" who probably had background treating emotional or psychological disorders: "Walker is not an overt or partial psychotic, but operates better when he believes he is being persecuted or prosecuted; that is, when someone is subjecting him to pressure, he tends to become more stable. When Walker is being ignored, he is liable to do something to attract attention and bring pressure against himself." Many political extremists (right and left) share this personality quality -- i.e. they do not like being ignored and they often engage in behavior calculated to produce opposition or severe criticism because they function best when they think of themselves as an innocent victim of persecution by sinister villains whom they propose to vanquish and render impotent. Edited February 2, 2014 by Ernie Lazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Interesting observation. It reads (to me) that whoever is looking to give some insight to a basic question about his sanity re psychosis. If the following is correct I wonder where he was on this pendulum in late '63. Probably an analysis of his kniown actions at around the time can help to deduce that. Either way his sworn enemy was coming to his town and attention wise there was no way he could compete with Kennedy. How nuts he really was has been attempted to be answered elsewhere. your comment : "they do not like being ignored and they often engage in behavior calculated to produce opposition or severe criticism because they function best when they think of themselves as an innocent victim of persecution by sinister villains whom they propose to vanquish and render impotent." - sounds like a nuts motive. Hmmm... means.. no worries. Opportunity? He was encased in a metal tube up in the air at the time of the assassination as verified by the pilots, so no, he didn't pull the trigger. A lone nut did that. Was he on a watch list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I can't find the thread but when looking into MAD magazine and Walker (and Watts, Brig Gen) there was one document that from memory was from around the end of the fifties where Sullivan (?) finds Walker (or Watts) (Watts and Walker were together on this one) a nuisance at a meeting and writes something along the line 'this guy is nuts'. The thread is definitely gone as well as interestingly any images as far as I can find on the net. From here it's as if it never happened. This is weird. What among the 36 known documents makes them appear to have been redacted in entirety. This is ridiculous of course (viva tor). They can't be redacted. It's out there. Somwewhere. Anyway the point is that I remember it as being Hoovers right hand man whatever his name was who scribbled the comment about Walker being nuts. One interesting thing is that one (of very few) site mentions casually that so and so and the/that general are both, without mentioning names, suing MAD magazine. (it was about a draft dodge card clipout that promised a free pass if ticked and sent to J.E. Hoover .... . It rather annoyes Hoover and Walker.. That scribble had to come from somewere too. What can one infer from Walker using Watts (and the Loonies) to sue MAD magazine in end of 60's? And the FBI writing him off as a loony. I wonder if there are any SS docs on Walker at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) I can't find the thread but when looking into MAD magazine and Walker (and Watts, Brig Gen) there was one document that from memory was from around the end of the fifties where Sullivan (?) finds Walker (or Watts) (Watts and Walker were together on this one) a nuisance at a meeting and writes something along the line 'this guy is nuts'. The thread is definitely gone as well as interestingly any images as far as I can find on the net. From here it's as if it never happened. This is weird. What among the 36 known documents makes them appear to have been redacted in entirety. This is ridiculous of course (viva tor). They can't be redacted. It's out there. Somwewhere. Anyway the point is that I remember it as being Hoovers right hand man whatever his name was who scribbled the comment about Walker being nuts. One interesting thing is that one (of very few) site mentions casually that so and so and the/that general are both, without mentioning names, suing MAD magazine. (it was about a draft dodge card clipout that promised a free pass if ticked and sent to J.E. Hoover .... . It rather annoyes Hoover and Walker.. That scribble had to come from somewere too. What can one infer from Walker using Watts (and the Loonies) to sue MAD magazine in end of 60's? And the FBI writing him off as a loony. I wonder if there are any SS docs on Walker at this time. I'm not sure I understand your comment but with reference to the "Walker is nuts" comment -- that is Hoover's initial. Tolson's initial (Hoover's "right hand man" i.e. the Associate Director) is the one immediately to the left of Hoover's which often looks like a check mark with a dot underneath it. You can see Tolson's initials much better in the FBI Executive Conference docs which I posted online. Tolson usually was Chairman of those Conferences. For example, see the following where Tolson had to specifically enter his authorizing initials above his name: http://www.buildingdemocracy.us/archive/dox/fbi-admin/000%20FBI%20ADMIN%20and%20EXEC%20CONF/1133720-000%20---%2066-HQ-2554%20---%20Section%2030%201946%20only.pdf Edited February 3, 2014 by Ernie Lazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Yes I see what you mean. I'll try to restate it. I started a topic a couple (?) of years ago about the FBI and Mad Magazine because within the 36 odd known FBI documents about the FBIvMAD matter(s) Walker and his lawyer Watts were mentioned (in a couple of them from memory). When looking to verify my memory re statement that W is nuts I found the thread gone. Similarly when trying to find them online all I've come up with is a partial listing of the docs with all links faulty so I cannot prove such documents or their content. I find it puzzling. I can't remember any reason that I can imagine being a cause for their 'redaction'. Anyway Walker, and his lawyer and various other 'middle belters', got het up under the collar about the late 50's (not 60's as wrongly written) edition that offered a pass on the draft (or whatever that prank was, there were a few others (MAD today is pretty bland)) if one sends in a clipping to Hoover, which pissed off Hoover. Anyway all these tightarses got upset and Hoover (or whoever) calls Walker a nut which in that context is noteworthy. So that's happened in various docs http://www.collectmad.com/fbi/fbi-mad-bufiles.htm May 1955 - Bufile 62-106572-X1 February 1959 - Bufile 62-106572-X10 September 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X13 January 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-1 February 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-2 April 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-3 April 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-4 May 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-5 May 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-6 September 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-11 October 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-12 October 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-13 November 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-14 February 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-15 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-16 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-17 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-18 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-19 February 1963 - Bufile 62-106572-20 March 1963 - Bufile 62-106572- May 1965 - Bufile 62-106572-21 July 1965 - Bufile 62-106572-22 February 1970 - Bufile 62-106572-24 September 1971 - Bufile 62-106572-25 Article in Question, MAD #37 November 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X3 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X5 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X6 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X7 January 1958 - Bufile 62-106572-X8 January 1958 - Bufile 62-106572-X9 Article in Question Hair Tonic, MAD #53 Article in Question Electrolux, MAD #53 January 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X11 May 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X12 Article in Question, MAD #63 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-7 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-8 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-9 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-10 edit typos,correction Edited February 4, 2014 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Yes I see what you mean. I'll try to restate it. I started a topic a couple (?) of years ago about the FBI and Mad Magazine because within the 36 odd known FBI documents about the FBIvMAD matter(s) Walker and his lawyer Watts were mentioned (in a couple of them from memory). When looking to verify my memory re statement that W is nuts I found the thread gone. Similarly when trying to find them online all I've come up with is a partial listing of the docs with all links faulty so I cannot prove such documents or their content. I find it puzzling. I can't remember any reason that I can imagine being a cause for their 'redaction'. Anyway Walker, and his lawyer and various other 'middle belters', got het up under the collar about the late 50's (not 60's as wrongly written) edition that offered a pass on the draft (or whatever that prank was, there were a few others (MAD today is pretty bland)) if one sends in a clipping to Hoover, which pissed off Hoover. Anyway all these tightarses got upset and Hoover (or whoever) calls Walker a nut which in that context is noteworthy. So that's happened in various docs http://www.collectmad.com/fbi/fbi-mad-bufiles.htm May 1955 - Bufile 62-106572-X1 February 1959 - Bufile 62-106572-X10 September 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X13 January 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-1 February 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-2 April 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-3 April 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-4 May 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-5 May 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-6 September 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-11 October 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-12 October 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-13 November 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-14 February 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-15 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-16 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-17 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-18 March 1962 - Bufile 62-106572-19 February 1963 - Bufile 62-106572-20 March 1963 - Bufile 62-106572- May 1965 - Bufile 62-106572-21 July 1965 - Bufile 62-106572-22 February 1970 - Bufile 62-106572-24 September 1971 - Bufile 62-106572-25 Article in Question, MAD #37 November 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X3 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X5 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X6 December 1957 - Bufile 62-106572-X7 January 1958 - Bufile 62-106572-X8 January 1958 - Bufile 62-106572-X9 Article in Question Hair Tonic, MAD #53 Article in Question Electrolux, MAD #53 January 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X11 May 1960 - Bufile 62-106572-X12 Article in Question, MAD #63 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-7 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-8 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-9 June 1961 - Bufile 62-106572-10 edit typos,correction The webpage you are referencing is not the official website of Mad magazine. The website was created for commercial purposes by a fan/collector who sells Mad-related items. The FBI file links were not "redacted", they just are no longer operative and neither is his "contact us" link which may mean that his business no longer operates. However, since he has provided the FBI HQ main file number for Mad magazine (62-106572) which, if memory serves me correctly, was released circa 2001 or 2002, you could submit an FOIA request to the FBI and ask that they release all documents on a CD. Most likely, they will send you the entire file at no charge (on CD) since it has been previously processed -- and in fact, you can mention that it was previously processed in your request letter -- and then you would have the references you are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Since the discussion here has turned to the topic of the sanity of resigned Major General Edwin A. Walker, I'll chime in some new information that was shared with me by Robert Morrow and his elderly friend, Kelly Brown. Kelly Brown was a young, Southern political candidate attempting to make his mark in Southern politics in 1962, and went about collecting information on the two main players in the South, as he saw them, namely, Ex-General Walker and Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. In early 1962, Ex-General Walker made a speech at the University of Georgia during his NIC Tour. Kelly Brown met privately with Walker after the speech, and asked for Walker's candid opinions about the State of the Union. He got an earful. Ex-General Walker told Kelly Brown to expect a race war in the USA. Walker predicted that blood would run in the streets until it was ankle deep. Walker predicted that White Americans would demand that the US Military intervene to forcibly resolve the race war in their favor, and that the US Military would oblige White Americans. In doing so, however, the US Military would cancel the US Constitution, establish a Military dictatorship, and never again give up their control of the USA to civilians, simply because the civilians would have asked to be taken over. Walker also told Kelly Brown that he was convinced that JFK was personally a Communist who was conspiring directly with Nikita Khrushchev to undermine the US Constitution and bring about World Communism. So, no matter which way the world leaned, right or left, the US Constitution was doomed, according to Ex-General Edwin Walker. I don't know if Kelly Brown took that information to the FBI, but I do note that in the 1967 Correlation Summary that the FBI compiled on ex-General Edwin Walker which Ernie shared two days ago, there is lots of "redaction," that is, blacked-out lines and paragraphs. Usually the blacked-out lines are the names of informants whom the FBI wants to withhold -- but sometimes a whole paragraph is blacked-out, so even the content remains a secret. If Kelly Brown did take his story to the FBI, then perhaps this is one reason that J. Edgar Hoover remarked that "Walker is nuts." Finally, this portrait of Ex-General Walker as a wild extremist harmonizes very well with Harry Dean's claim that Ex-General Walker organized a plot around Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate JFK. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Since the discussion here has turned to the topic of the sanity of resigned Major General Edwin A. Walker, I'll chime in some new information that was shared with me by Robert Morrow and his elderly friend, Kelly Brown. Kelly Brown was a young, Southern political candidate attempting to make his mark in Southern politics in 1962, and went about collecting information on the two main players in the South, as he saw them, namely, Ex-General Walker and Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. In early 1962, Ex-General Walker made a speech at the University of Georgia during his NIC Tour. Kelly Brown met privately with Walker after the speech, and asked for Walker's candid opinions about the State of the Union. He got an earful. Ex-General Walker told Kelly Brown to expect a race war in the USA. Walker predicted that blood would run in the streets until it was ankle deep. Walker predicted that White Americans would demand that the US Military intervene to forcibly resolve the race war in their favor, and that the US Military would oblige White Americans. In doing so, however, the US Military would cancel the US Constitution, establish a Military dictatorship, and never again give up their control of the USA to civilians, simply because the civilians would have asked to be taken over. Walker also told Kelly Brown that he was convinced that JFK was personally a Communist who was conspiring directly with Khrushchev to undermine the US Constitution and bring about World Communism. So, no matter which way the world leaned, extreme right or extreme left, the US Constitution was doomed, according to Ex-General Edwin Walker. I don't know if Kelly Brown took that information to the FBI, but I do note that in the 1967 Correlation Summary that the FBI compiled on ex-General Edwin Walker which Ernie shared two days ago, there is lots of "redaction," that is, blacked-out lines and paragraphs. Usually the blacked-out lines are the names of informants whom the FBI wants to withhold -- but sometimes a whole paragraph is blacked-out, so even the content remains a secret. If Kelly Brown did take his story to the FBI, then perhaps this is one reason that J. Edgar Hoover remarked that "Walker is nuts." Finally, this portrait of Ex-General Walker as a wild extremist harmonizes very well with Harry Dean's claim that Ex-General Walker organized a plot around Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate JFK. Best regards, --Paul Trejo 1. Hoover was most likely responding to the ever-present extreme right theme in Walker's (and the JBS) scheme of things (at the time Hoover made his "Walker is nuts" comment) -- namely, that every adverse development in U.S. history was planned and executed by sinister conspirators not only hidden from public view but never exposed or commented upon by any of our responsible government officials. The specific Walker assertion which Hoover responded to in that memo was that our two most wrenching events of the 1960's up to that time (i.e. racial riots and JFK's murder) were "communist-inspired") but, nevertheless, even The Sainted J. Edgar Hoover refused to honestly acknowledge the communist involvement (i.e. the "connection") which, according to Walker, was how "propaganda works" -- i.e. it hides the true actors and their motives. 2. It is this omnipresent theme in the extreme right belief system, which explains why people like Walker (and William Potter Gale and Robert DePugh and John Crommelin) advocated the formation of and/or created right-wing paramilitary groups (such as Minutemen, California Rangers, American Royal Rangers, as well as various "gun clubs" which were KKK-fronts) because they sincerely believed that our country was already in the hands of Communist traitors. As Walker told the 1963 Annual Leadership Conference of the Citizens Councils: “The Kennedy’s have liquidated the Government of the U.S. It no longer exists." 3. With respect to Paul's comment that this depiction of Walker harmonizes with Harry's claims about Walker being involved in a murder plot against JFK: The problem here is that there are literally DOZENS of comparable comments made by all sorts of right wing extremists during the 1960's -- and many of those individuals had military backgrounds -- including (as previously mentioned) John Crommelin and William Potter Gale. In fact, many of the non-JBS right-wing "plot" theories revolve around National States Rights Party figures or American Nazi Party figures or other right-wing political extremists who often despised Birchers because they would not "speak the truth" about the "real" problem i.e. "Jews". If I can find the time to do so, I may write an article which summarizes all the NON-Birch Society (but still right-wing) plot theories -- which ALSO involve what Paul often describes as "eyewitness" testimony. Several that pop into my head right now are: (1) the conversations in Dr. Stanley Drennan's home in North Hollywood, CA which the FBI learned about from Lt. Col. Robert Brown (he was subsequently publisher of Soldier of Fortune magazine); (2) comments made by Dr. Fernando Penabaz (an employee of Billy James Hargis) whose private comments at a meeting were repeated to the FBI by a Minnesota pastor whom the FBI interviewed. (3) other "plots" involving American Nazi Party members/sympathizers and in fact a payment of $10,000 was allegedly also offered in one of those "plots"....Seems like $10K is the standard amount offered for killing a President? Postscript: With respect to Paul's "blood in the streets" reference: I know of at least two identical predictions made by right-wingers at almost the exact same time which Paul references (1962). One was made by T. Coleman Andrews in a letter to Robert Welch. Another was made by John Crommelin during his speeches before like-minded racists in Alabama. In fact, Crommelin's prediction was even more dire and was the reason he advocated violent resistance to integration efforts in the south when he addressed National States Rights Party and KKK members. One should also remember the information which the FBI received about a "Klan insurrection plot" which supposedly would be triggered by the defeat of Goldwater in the 1964 election. Edited February 4, 2014 by Ernie Lazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) I started a topic a couple (?) of years ago about the FBI and Mad Magazine because within the 36 odd known FBI documents about the FBIvMAD matter(s) Walker and his lawyer Watts were mentioned (in a couple of them from memory). When looking to verify my memory re statement that W is nuts I found the thread gone. Similarly when trying to find them online all I've come up with is a partial listing of the docs with all links faulty so I cannot prove such documents or their content. I find it puzzling. I can't remember any reason that I can imagine being a cause for their 'redaction'. Anyway Walker, and his lawyer and various other 'middle belters', got het up under the collar about the late 50's (not 60's as wrongly written) edition that offered a pass on the draft (or whatever that prank was, there were a few others (MAD today is pretty bland)) if one sends in a clipping to Hoover, which pissed off Hoover. Anyway all these tightarses got upset and Hoover (or whoever) calls Walker a nut which in that context is noteworthy. John, this is fascinating about MAD Magazine and General Walker. I sorted through all 80 boxes of the Edwin Walker personal papers at UT Austin and saw lots of references to US newspapers that were being sued by Walker and Watts -- but I never saw any reference to MAD Magazine there. It's possible that I missed it, but it's also possible that Walker didn't store those documents because he lost that case against MAD Magazine. It's hard to sue a humor magazine. After General Walker lied to the Mississippi Grand Jury about this role in the race riots of 1962 at Ole Miss, he was acquitted of all charges -- and then, to further cover-up his lie, he went about suing every US newspaper in America who told the truth about his involvement. The truth was that Walker started the riots himself by going on radio and TV to call for "ten thousand strong from every State in the Union" to meet him there in Oxford, Mississippi, to loudly protest the admittance of a Black American, James Meredith, as a student there. Many thousands did come from all over the USA, from the East Coast of Florida to the West Coast of California -- and many of them brought weapons (as FBI files show). Anyway, to cover his lie, he and attorneys Clyde Watts and Robert Morris started a lawsuit campaign in 1963 that ended in 1967, and if they would have won every case they would have been awarded $30 million (which amounts to $300 million today, adjusted for inflation). They lost most of the cases, but in local courts they won enough cases to amass $3 million in "libel" charges against US newspapers that told the truth. No doubt the MAD Magazine lawsuit in question was related to this very same set of cases. The irony came in 1967 when none other than Chief Justice Earl Warren overturned all of Walker's winnings -- using the precedents of Curtis Publishing Co. v. Butts (388 U.S. 130) and Times v. Sullivan, and sided with the Associated Press against Walker. Warren sent Walker and Watts home empty-handed. (It was around this time that Walker began pleading with the Army to restore his pension, although he'd officially resigned. It would take another fifteen years before the Army granted his pension.) Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited February 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) 1. Hoover was most likely responding to the ever-present extreme right theme in Walker's (and the JBS) scheme of things (at the time Hoover made his "Walker is nuts" comment) -- namely, that every adverse development in U.S. history was planned and executed by sinister conspirators not only hidden from public view but never exposed or commented upon by any of our responsible government officials. The specific Walker assertion which Hoover responded to in that memo was that our two most wrenching events of the 1960's up to that time (i.e. racial riots and JFK's murder) were "communist-inspired") but, nevertheless, even The Sainted J. Edgar Hoover refused to honestly acknowledge the communist involvement (i.e. the "connection") which, according to Walker, was how "propaganda works" -- i.e. it hides the true actors and their motives. 2. It is this omnipresent theme in the extreme right belief system, which explains why people like Walker (and William Potter Gale and Robert DePugh and John Crommelin) advocated the formation of and/or created right-wing paramilitary groups (such as Minutemen, California Rangers, American Royal Rangers, as well as various "gun clubs" which were KKK-fronts) because they sincerely believed that our country was already in the hands of Communist traitors. As Walker told the 1963 Annual Leadership Conference of the Citizens Councils: “The Kennedy’s have liquidated the Government of the U.S. It no longer exists." 3. With respect to Paul's comment that this depiction of Walker harmonizes with Harry's claims about Walker being involved in a murder plot against JFK: The problem here is that there are literally DOZENS of comparable comments made by all sorts of right wing extremists during the 1960's -- and many of those individuals had military backgrounds -- including (as previously mentioned) John Crommelin and William Potter Gale. In fact, many of the non-JBS right-wing "plot" theories revolve around National States Rights Party figures or American Nazi Party figures or other right-wing political extremists who often despised Birchers because they would not "speak the truth" about the "real" problem i.e. "Jews". <snip> (1) Ernie, it sounds like you're finally admitting that the JBS claim that JFK was a Communist is similar to Walker's nutty claim in 1961-1963. I think history shows that Walker got this idea from Robert Welch, first and foremost, front and center. It is fascinating to reflect on the fact that Ex-General Walker also rejected the Warren Commission conclusions thoroughly. In my opinion, Walker knew that the Warren Commission conclusions were wrong because he knew far more about the real facts of the JFK assassination than most people on the Warren Commission panel. (2) We agree that the rise of the Minutemen and other extreme-right-wing paramilitary "gun clubs" corresponds with the right-wing paranoia that the Communists were taking over Washington DC. I appreciate your quote of Walker at the 1963 Annual Leadership Conference of the [White] Citizens Councils: “The Kennedy’s have liquidated the Government of the U.S. It no longer exists." Despite his intellectual shortcomings, there were many charming aspects about Ex-General Walker, even beyond the fact that he was a hero of WW2 and Korea. For instance, except for the times that he lied under oath (i.e. to the Mississippi Grand Jury and to the Warren Commission, when he could have been executed for telling the truth, IMHO) Walker was a very patriotic and honest man. Walker was brutally honest and he called 'em like he saw 'em. He had to be tightly controlled by his lawyers, Clyde Watts and Robert Morris, before the Grand Jury as well as the Warren Commission, otherwise his frankness could have ended in a court-martial or even the death penalty. Otherwise he believed in what he said 100%. (3) You say, Ernie, that there are "literally DOZENS" of comparable comments to General Walker's claims of a coming race war in the USA -- and that is true. However, there was only ONE case of a secret plot against JFK that involved Lee Harvey Oswald. All the cases that you cite from other right-wing fanatics (and that others have named over the decades) all fail to name Lee Harvey Oswald as the centerpiece. Only the JFK plot by the allegedly "nuts" Ex-General Edwin Walker (according to J. Edgar Hoover) actually named Lee Harvey Oswald, and Harry Dean personally heard these very words come from Walker's mouth. This is what makes Harry Dean's memoirs a truly historical treasure. Here is the last place to find the truth regarding the JFK assassination, which the official HSCA admitted involved more people than Lee Harvey Oswald, although they failed to name them. Only Harry Dean names these JFK plotters with "eye-witness" precision. Sincerely, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited February 4, 2014 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Lazar Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) 1. Hoover was most likely responding to the ever-present extreme right theme in Walker's (and the JBS) scheme of things (at the time Hoover made his "Walker is nuts" comment) -- namely, that every adverse development in U.S. history was planned and executed by sinister conspirators not only hidden from public view but never exposed or commented upon by any of our responsible government officials. The specific Walker assertion which Hoover responded to in that memo was that our two most wrenching events of the 1960's up to that time (i.e. racial riots and JFK's murder) were "communist-inspired") but, nevertheless, even The Sainted J. Edgar Hoover refused to honestly acknowledge the communist involvement (i.e. the "connection") which, according to Walker, was how "propaganda works" -- i.e. it hides the true actors and their motives. 2. It is this omnipresent theme in the extreme right belief system, which explains why people like Walker (and William Potter Gale and Robert DePugh and John Crommelin) advocated the formation of and/or created right-wing paramilitary groups (such as Minutemen, California Rangers, American Royal Rangers, as well as various "gun clubs" which were KKK-fronts) because they sincerely believed that our country was already in the hands of Communist traitors. As Walker told the 1963 Annual Leadership Conference of the Citizens Councils: “The Kennedy’s have liquidated the Government of the U.S. It no longer exists." 3. With respect to Paul's comment that this depiction of Walker harmonizes with Harry's claims about Walker being involved in a murder plot against JFK: The problem here is that there are literally DOZENS of comparable comments made by all sorts of right wing extremists during the 1960's -- and many of those individuals had military backgrounds -- including (as previously mentioned) John Crommelin and William Potter Gale. In fact, many of the non-JBS right-wing "plot" theories revolve around National States Rights Party figures or American Nazi Party figures or other right-wing political extremists who often despised Birchers because they would not "speak the truth" about the "real" problem i.e. "Jews". <snip> (1) Ernie, it sounds like you're finally admitting that the JBS claim that JFK was a Communist is similar to Walker's nutty claim in 1961-1963. I think history shows that Walker got this idea from Robert Welch, first and foremost, front and center. It is fascinating to reflect on the fact that Ex-General Walker also rejected the Warren Commission conclusions thoroughly. In my opinion, Walker knew that the Warren Commission conclusions were wrong because he knew far more about the real facts of the JFK assassination than most people on the Warren Commission panel. (2) We agree that the rise of the Minutemen and other extreme-right-wing paramilitary "gun clubs" corresponds with the right-wing paranoia that the Communists were taking over Washington DC. I appreciate your quote of Walker at the 1963 Annual Leadership Conference of the [White] Citizens Councils: “The Kennedy’s have liquidated the Government of the U.S. It no longer exists." Despite his intellectual shortcomings, there were many charming aspects about Ex-General Walker, even beyond the fact that he was a hero of WW2 and Korea. For instance, except for the times that he lied under oath (i.e. to the Mississippi Grand Jury and to the Warren Commission, when he could have been executed for telling the truth, IMHO) Walker was a very patriotic and honest man. Walker was brutally honest and he called 'em like he saw 'em. He had to be tightly controlled by his lawyers, Clyde Watts and Robert Morris, before the Grand Jury as well as the Warren Commission, otherwise his frankness could have ended in a court-martial or even the death penalty. Otherwise he believed in what he said 100%. (3) You say, Ernie, that there are "literally DOZENS" of comparable comments to General Walker's claims of a coming race war in the USA -- and that is true. However, there was only ONE case of a secret plot against JFK that involved Lee Harvey Oswald. All the cases that you cite from other right-wing fanatics (and that others have named over the decades) all fail to name Lee Harvey Oswald as the centerpiece. Only the JFK plot by the allegedly "nuts" Ex-General Edwin Walker (according to J. Edgar Hoover) actually named Lee Harvey Oswald, and Harry Dean personally heard these very words come from Walker's mouth. This is what makes Harry Dean's memoirs a truly historical treasure. Here is the last place to find the truth regarding the JFK assassination, which the official HSCA admitted involved more people than Lee Harvey Oswald, although they failed to name them. Only Harry Dean names these JFK plotters with "eye-witness" precision. Sincerely, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> 1. Actually, Paul, some of the other right-wing anti-JFK (but non-JBS) "plot" narratives do include Oswald in their explanations. There are numerous right-wing plot permutations. Some author (I forget his name at the moment) summarized most of the right-wing plot explanations in a book many years ago. 2. And what do you mean by your snarky comment that I am "finally admitting that the JBS claim that JFK was a Communist is similar to Walker's nutty claim in 1961-1963." Have I ever denied or disputed that Walker subscribed to the full scope of JBS ideology? 3. With respect to Walker being an "honest" person, I have to disagree with you. I do not doubt that his personal political convictions/beliefs were genuine but many of his assertions were totally false and based upon nothing more than total ignorance. For example, at one point, Walker regurgitated some very pejorative accusations against Harry Overstreet's 1958 book, What We Must Know About Communism, but when pressed on the matter, Walker admitted that he had never even read the book! This is very similar to the October 1961 controversy when Robert Welch declared that one-half of one percent of Catholic priests in the United States were Communist sympathizers (as opposed to 3% of the Protestant clergy) -- which would calculate to 273 priests but when challenged by Monsignor Francis Lally (the editor of the Boston Pilot) to document his assertion, Welch replied "that this figure with regard to the Catholic clergy is simply pulled out of a hat as a complete guess and without any substantiation even being claimed". How does one accept such cavalier statements as coming from an intellectually honest person? 4. One has to remember that political extremists often speak in parables and metaphors which are intended to illustrate some larger point but which bear no relationship to actual factual truth. Also very significant, is that it is not uncommon for individuals whose political extremism initially begins on the LEFT side of the spectrum to subsequently become devout adherents of ideas and positions associated with RIGHT-wing extremists. In fact, that is the ideological journey which describes Harry's evolution. [it would be fun to know what Harry's current political convictions are.] Some examples of other persons who began as left-wing political extremists (subscribing to Communist or Marxist ideology) who subsequently became right-wing political extremists (subscribing to JBS or similar ideology) include: Samuel Bowers Julia Brown Matt Cvetic Roy E. Frankhouser Ruth Gordienko Manning Johnson Joseph Zack Kornfeder Phillip Abbott Luce J.B. Matthews Karl Prussion E. Merrill Root H. Keith Thompson Edited February 4, 2014 by Ernie Lazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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