Harry Dean: Memoirs

[Ernie Lazar]

And here I was just going to take a nap on Sunday afternoon, now I need to clean out the library......should free up a good deal of space for something though. Now that I think of it though, Paul's remark sort of sounds like a classic "appeal to authority" - trust in the professionals and the system, those who have solved or rendered career judgements on crimes would be the arbiters. Given that, perhaps I should leave some room on the shelves for the Warren Commission report - and for that matter Bugliosi's study. After all, he was a hugely successful criminal prosecution attorney so his judgements would be the ones to go by....

When John Birch Society members become enraged by the evidence that I present to falsify their assertions -- particularly when I use sources which heretofore they have enthusiastically supported and recommended as indisputably reliable and authoritative (such as Hoover's FBI) --- the JBS members express their rage and frustration and exasperation by making two comments -- one of which is a question -- and they hope that their comments will totally shut-down any further discussion.

I will now quote my primary JBS antagonist (a South Carolina JBS chapter leader):

(1) "It is VERY simple. Those who spend their time fighting tyranny, are patriots. Those who spend their time fighting patriots are working to the advancing of tyranny."

(2) "What is your list of POSITIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS in fighting for freedom?"

As is manifestly self-evident, there is not a dime's worth of difference between the JBS mentality and that which is expressed by Paul Trejo.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

QUESTIONS

1. Does anybody know birth or death information on Victor Thomas Vicente the Social Committee Chairman of FPCC who is believed to be FBI informant T-3245-S* ??

2. I know that, over the years, there have been many conventions or conferences around the country for Warren Commission critics to bring everyone up-to-speed about the latest information pertaining to the murder of JFK.

In fact, there was a 3-day AARC Conference last month in Bethesda MD that featured over 40 authors, researchers, lawyers, etc. And I think Larry Hancock was one of the featured speakers.

MY QUESTION is this: Does anyone who has attended ANY of these meetings over the past 20 or 30 years recall whether or not anybody has ever presented information which conforms to Harry Dean's "JBS plot" narrative? OR has any of the featured speakers ever cited Harry Dean?

[Thomas Graves]

QUESTIONS

1. Does anybody know birth or death information on Victor Thomas Vicente the Social Committee Chairman of FPCC who is believed to be FBI informant T-3245-S* ??

2. I know that, over the years, there have been many conventions or conferences around the country for Warren Commission critics to bring everyone up-to-speed about the latest information pertaining to the murder of JFK.

In fact, there was a 3-day AARC Conference last month in Bethesda MD that featured over 40 authors, researchers, lawyers, etc. And I think Larry Hancock was one of the featured speakers.

MY QUESTION is this: Does anyone who has attended ANY of these meetings over the past 20 or 30 years recall whether or not anybody has ever presented information which conforms to Harry Dean's "JBS plot" narrative? OR has any of the featured speakers ever cited Harry Dean?

Ernie,

Could this be him?

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=2844075

Looks like he was in the navy during WW II when he was only 14 years old. LOL

--Tommy

Edited October 20, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

And here I was just going to take a nap on Sunday afternoon, now I need to clean out the library......should free up a good deal of space for something though. Now that I think of it though, Paul's remark sort of sounds like a classic "appeal to authority" - trust in the professionals and the system, those who have solved or rendered career judgements on crimes would be the arbiters. Given that, perhaps I should leave some room on the shelves for the Warren Commission report - and for that matter Bugliosi's study. After all, he was a hugely successful criminal prosecution attorney so his judgements would be the ones to go by....

Very funny, Larry.

Actually, I reject the FBI treatment and conclusions about Lee Harvey Oswald.

Actually, I reject the Warren Commission treatment and conclusions about Lee Harvey Oswald.

Actually, I firmly believe that CIA Officers like David Morales and E. Howard Hunt were involved in the JFK assassination.

Actually, I reject Bugliosi's treatment of the JFK murder, since he agrees with the 1964 Lone Nut theory, even after the US Government published its 1979 conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone, and surely had accomplices.

However, unlike many other JFK researchers, I don't take a one-sided view -- I don't just reject EVERYTHING that the FBI, CIA or Warren Commission ever wrote.

I'm not so one-sided. There are NUANCES. I look for the nuances.

When I review all the vast literature of the JFK murder, I find that our best information is still found in the pages of the Warren Conmmission. Of course, one must learn to read the Warren Report between the lines -- but the gold is in there.

The Warren Commission volumes contain information and testimony that was CLOSEST TO THE TIMEFRAME of the JFK murder, when it was still fresh in the minds of the eye-witnesses. It is a GOLD MINE, even though its CONCLUSIONS were warped.

One must carefully seek out the NUANCES, that is, one must carefully separate the Lone Nut conclusions and slanting of evidence from the hundreds of pages of valuable testimony.

When we do that, we find that Ex-General Edwin Walker played a MAJOR ROLE in the Warren Commission suspicions and proceedings. (Sadly, Walker played no role in the HSCA investigations, and almost none at all in the JFK literature by Weisberg, Lane, Meagher, Garrison, Marrs, Mellen and on and on and on for fifty years.

I do believe that we need to get back to Edwin Walker, and get off this useless hobby horse of blaming the CIA for everything that ever happened.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, I would certainly expect that anyone following the 95 pages of this immense thread should appreciate your beliefs and comprehend your scenario by this point in time. And I'm sure that you are aware that almost the investigators and researchers you mention were very much aware of Walker, his politics and his activities of the period, the fact that they did not choose to go down the path you are pursuing doesn't mean they were unaware of the people you often mention or the remarks and comments they made. You've chosen the scenario you wish to pursue and I think we all get that.....the fact that some of us keep responding to it seems only lengthen this thread, to little other purpose. Hopefully in the future I can discipline myself not to make it any longer than it already is....

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, I would certainly expect that anyone following the 95 pages of this immense thread should appreciate your beliefs and comprehend your scenario by this point in time. And I'm sure that you are aware that almost the investigators and researchers you mention were very much aware of Walker, his politics and his activities of the period, the fact that they did not choose to go down the path you are pursuing doesn't mean they were unaware of the people you often mention or the remarks and comments they made. You've chosen the scenario you wish to pursue and I think we all get that.....the fact that some of us keep responding to it seems only lengthen this thread, to little other purpose. Hopefully in the future I can discipline myself not to make it any longer than it already is....

Larry, if the writers you mentioned were aware of the role played by Ex-General Edwin Walker in the JFK assassination, then they made a secret of it.

If they ever published their reasons for dismissing his possible participation in the JFK assassination -- they surely made a secret of it.

If somebody would show me some SOLID evidence that Walker WASN'T (1) a member of the JBS; (2) a speaker for White Citizens Councils; (3) an outspoken speaker against JFK; (4) an beloved leader of the extreme right-wing in the USA in 1963; (5) aware of Lee Harvey Oswald for the bulk of 1963; (6) connected to the Minutemen in 1963; (7) connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming in 1963; (8) connected to Loran Hall and Larry Howard in 1963; (9) connected to Carlos Bringuier in 1963; (9) making speeches in Southern California JBS meetings in the 1963, where Harry Dean was attending them; (10) paranoid that RFK was trying to kill him using Lee Harvey Oswald --

-- then I could change my theory and be done with this long, long journey in which I am largely fighting an uphill battle.

Sadly, nobody provides these proofs. They somehow believe they don't have to, because "Everybody Knows" that Walker wasn't important.

Well, that's not good enough. What "everybody knows" has not yet solved the JFK murder. That's the problem.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

QUESTIONS

1. Does anybody know birth or death information on Victor Thomas Vicente the Social Committee Chairman of FPCC who is believed to be FBI informant T-3245-S* ??

2. I know that, over the years, there have been many conventions or conferences around the country for Warren Commission critics to bring everyone up-to-speed about the latest information pertaining to the murder of JFK.

In fact, there was a 3-day AARC Conference last month in Bethesda MD that featured over 40 authors, researchers, lawyers, etc. And I think Larry Hancock was one of the featured speakers.

MY QUESTION is this: Does anyone who has attended ANY of these meetings over the past 20 or 30 years recall whether or not anybody has ever presented information which conforms to Harry Dean's "JBS plot" narrative? OR has any of the featured speakers ever cited Harry Dean?

Ernie,

Could this be him?

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=2844075

Looks like he was in the navy during WW II when he was only 14 years old. LOL

--Tommy

I am trying to ascertain if that might be the Vicente who became an FBI informant inside FPCC but nobody seems to know any details about him. Bill Simpich did not have any specific information concerning his birthdate.

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul, I would certainly expect that anyone following the 95 pages of this immense thread should appreciate your beliefs and comprehend your scenario by this point in time. And I'm sure that you are aware that almost the investigators and researchers you mention were very much aware of Walker, his politics and his activities of the period, the fact that they did not choose to go down the path you are pursuing doesn't mean they were unaware of the people you often mention or the remarks and comments they made. You've chosen the scenario you wish to pursue and I think we all get that.....the fact that some of us keep responding to it seems only lengthen this thread, to little other purpose. Hopefully in the future I can discipline myself not to make it any longer than it already is....

Larry, if the writers you mentioned were aware of the role played by Ex-General Edwin Walker in the JFK assassination, then they made a secret of it.

If they ever published their reasons for dismissing his possible participation in the JFK assassination -- they surely made a secret of it.

If somebody would show me some SOLID evidence that Walker WASN'T (1) a member of the JBS; (2) a speaker for White Citizens Councils; (3) an outspoken speaker against JFK; (4) an beloved leader of the extreme right-wing in the USA in 1963; (5) aware of Lee Harvey Oswald for the bulk of 1963; (6) connected to the Minutemen in 1963; (7) connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming in 1963; (8) connected to Loran Hall and Larry Howard in 1963; (9) connected to Carlos Bringuier in 1963; (9) making speeches in Southern California JBS meetings in the 1963, where Harry Dean was attending them; (10) paranoid that RFK was trying to kill him using Lee Harvey Oswald --

-- then I could change my theory and be done with this long, long journey in which I am largely fighting an uphill battle.

Sadly, nobody provides these proofs. They somehow believe they don't have to, because "Everybody Knows" that Walker wasn't important.

Well, that's not good enough. What "everybody knows" has not yet solved the JFK murder. That's the problem.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul, I think you totally misunderstand the fundamental problem. There have been prominent authors who have addressed Edwin Walker in the larger context of what they call a "Texas conspiracy" to murder JFK. For example, see: "The Radical Right and The Murder of JFK" by Harrison E. Livingstone.

The fundamental problem is that scores of researchers have poured over hundreds of thousands of pages of material appearing in books and articles and interview transcripts and oral history recordings -- but nobody can see the "nuances" or connections which you think are compelling evidence of something. Even worse, as I mentioned yesterday, the "JBS plot" theory is a dry hole to pursue. There simply is no new evidence to consider and there has not been any new evidence or documentation for decades.

YOU have an advantage over other interested parties because you have reviewed Walker's personal papers. Did you find anything in them to connect him to Harry Dean or which mentions anything that confirms that there was some sort of "JBS plot" OR that Walker was in frequent contact with Galbadon or Rousselot?

If your answer to those questions is "NO" -- then what else do you expect an interested researcher to discover? WHERE should they look for it?

P.S.: In fact, did Harry ever send any correspondence to Walker --- particularly during the 1960's??

Edited October 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, since you addressed me by name I will respond one more time, but in the future I won't be monitoring these threads so if you want to communicate something or ask a question feel free to email me at larryjoe@westok.net

The points you have listed have been noted and generally discussed in multiple places over the decades, you will find reference to Walker in Jerry Rose's Third and Fourth Decade Journals. His contacts with people such as Hemming and company, with other exiles, the shooting at his house, his politics and his various social network connections have been general knowledge and discussion in the research community since the earliest days. When the ultra right was considered as a conspiracy sponsor, his name routinely came up. Regardless of all that discussion, the majority of folks didn't find connections that they felt proved in anything directly connecting him to the attack in Dallas and focused elsewhere - as Mark noted in a separate post, its not necessary to prove a negative, only a positive so nobody invested a great deal of work in writing up reasons they didn't chase him further - that I recall at least. Just because you have chosen to continue down that path pretty much on your own doesn't mean nobody ever considered it ... I know other individuals who are pursuing non-mainstream leads and have been for ages, that's just their choice.

Early on I actually tried to provide you with some leads - such as Walkers summer visit to Florida - that I thought might be helpful. I don't recall seeing you post any research on that. Instead you continue to rely on sources and "confessions" that many in the research community find pretty questionable. That's your call of course. In any event, I won't be returning so I'll leave your threads to those who choose to go forward with them. Actually I have learned a great deal on the threat but that largely comes from Ernie's posts on FBI records and record searches as well as his research on Harry Dean. Both were helpful but 95 pages is enough....adios, Larry

l

[Gary Murr]

Though I believe I may have only interjected ever so briefly into this lengthy thread on only one occasion, and trust me I am not going back to confirm this, I would like to echo Larry's comments regarding the one true positive that at least to my mind has come out of this at times frustrating and acerbic topic/exchanges - Ernie's incredibly detailed information of record searches and results obtained and obtainable from the files of the FBI. Paul, unfortunately the historical trail from November 22, 1963 to the present time is littered with the corpses of true village idiots, beginning on the very day of Kennedy's death with the likes of Howard Leslie Brennan and Helen Markham. And though I may be wrong, it seems to me, by your ever annoying failure to answer the countless questions posed of and to both you and Harry Dean by Ernie Lazar that you are intent on getting to the very head of this same historical trail. And I, too, will not be returning to this thread.

FWIW

[Ernie Lazar]

Though I believe I may have only interjected ever so briefly into this lengthy thread on only one occasion, and trust me I am not going back to confirm this, I would like to echo Larry's comments regarding the one true positive that at least to my mind has come out of this at times frustrating and acerbic topic/exchanges - Ernie's incredibly detailed information of record searches and results obtained and obtainable from the files of the FBI. Paul, unfortunately the historical trail from November 22, 1963 to the present time is littered with the corpses of true village idiots, beginning on the very day of Kennedy's death with the likes of Howard Leslie Brennan and Helen Markham. And though I may be wrong, it seems to me, by your ever annoying failure to answer the countless questions posed of and to both you and Harry Dean by Ernie Lazar that you are intent on getting to the very head of this same historical trail. And I, too, will not be returning to this thread.

FWIW

Well, Gary, thanks for your very kind and generous comments.

I've written this before but perhaps it bears repeating: I never heard of Harry Dean or about any "JBS plot" theory re: the murder of JFK until I received some emails from individuals who had read my on-line report about the JBS (in approximately late 2009). After I acquainted myself with the basic outlines of Harry's story by reading comments he made here in EF, I could not understand why anyone believed his story.

So, I entered this debate in June 2010 by sharing what I knew from me obtaining both the FBI-HQ and FBI-Los Angeles files on the JBS -- along with having already acquired FBI files on most of the other characters whom figure so prominently in Harry's story (such as Rousselot and Walker) and files on FBI protocols with respect to developing informants and then evaluating the raw information they provided.

Later, I noticed Harry's comments about other persons and subjects and I knew many of them were completely false or so grossly exaggerated that no serious person was likely to entertain them.

Enter Paul Trejo.

Normally, I admire an independent researcher who is tenacious and persistent and who has unorthodox insights -- because those of us who belong to the Fanatic FOIA Research Community (FFRC) often share our "war stories" and our "horror stories" with respect to how some agencies use the most outrageous tactics to prevent disclosure of 40, 50, and 60 year old information in government files. Nevertheless, persistence and tenacity (and sometimes lawsuits!) have produced gazillions of previously "classified" files.

Unfortunately, Paul T. is committed to one particular hypothesis. I hesitate to use the word "theory" for Paul's comments because in my scheme of things, a genuine theory must be constructed in such a manner that it is testable and falsifiable plus the theorist must show willingness to obtain and genuinely consider (without hostility) all relevant data. In my judgment, Paul does NOT meet these benchmarks for a genuine theory because he consciously develops rules of evidence and logic which are designed to preclude falsification of whatever he believes and he has refused to obtain relevant primary source documents and he routinely attempts to de-value and discredit those he cannot totally ignore.

Regardless of your opinion of the FBI or of Hoover -- there is one INDISPUTABLE fact, i.e. that FBI files contain HUGE amounts of primary source data.

* THAT is why we now have copies of all of Harry's letters to JFK, to Hoover, and to the Los Angeles field office and a portion of his letter to Sen. George Murphy and his letter to the Director of the Joe Pyne Program.

* THAT is also why we now have a copy of the transcript of his interview with a southern California Police Department.

* THAT is also now why we have a copy of Harry's "I Confess" flyer from 1966.

So....I have always been extremely troubled by Paul's deliberate refusal to pursue PRIMARY SOURCE documentation regarding Harry.

WHAT HAVE I LEARNED FROM THIS DEBATE?

Basically, I have re-learned that when someone is committed to a particular ideological point of view (whether a Bircher, a Communist, a neo-nazi, or just somebody committed to one particular hypothesis about some historical event) -- the phenomenon of "cognitive dissonance" (CD) seems to takeover.

CD does not mean ordinary disagreement over interpretation of evidence (glass half empty or half full? for example). CD occurs when someone refuses to acknowledge the material significance of verifiable factual evidence which contradicts something they prefer to believe. THAT is why no JBS member will ever acknowledge substantive error. And THAT is also why somebody like Paul T. will never understand and can never understand why Harry's story is summarily rejected by so many researchers and scholars and even fellow JFK-conspiracy adherents.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Tom Hume]

Ernie asked”

“Does anybody know birth or death information on Victor Thomas Vicente the Social Committee Chairman of FPCC who is believed to be FBI informant T-3245-S* ??”

Questions:

(1) Vicente is often described as Puerto Rican. Is that his supposed ancestry or place of birth?

(2) Do you have a physical description and/or approximate age?

(3) Do you suspect that “Victor Thomas Vicente” is an alias?

Thanks,

Tom

[Ernie Lazar]

Ernie asked”

“Does anybody know birth or death information on Victor Thomas Vicente the Social Committee Chairman of FPCC who is believed to be FBI informant T-3245-S* ??”

Questions:

(1) Vicente is often described as Puerto Rican. Is that his supposed ancestry or place of birth?

(2) Do you have a physical description and/or approximate age?

(3) Do you suspect that “Victor Thomas Vicente” is an alias?

Thanks,

Tom

Tom, unfortunately, I have not been able to find any background info about Vicente other than he was born in Puerto Rico. I have checked numerous online articles or comments which refer to him---most of which just copy portions of what Bill Simpich has written--- but Bill does not have any further details re: Vicente either. There is no current reason to believe that VTV is an "alias".

I may try something via an FOIA request which sometimes works (when the FBI is not paying attention -- which DOES happen) to see if they will produce some documents.

Also, I am still waiting for the FBI to process my FOIA request for the current edition of their "RIDS Dead List" -- which contains names of people whom the Bureau knows to be deceased because somebody has already submitted their death records with their FOIA request.

Ernie

[Ernie Lazar]

NEW INFO RE FBI-FOIA REQUEST ==== JOAQUIN FREIRE

Today I received the FBI response to my FOIA request on Joaquin Freire (aka Joaquin Freire y Diaz]. I requested all documents created between August 1960 (when Harry first contacted the FBI in Chicago) and July 1961 (when he moved to Los Angeles).

Harry describes himself in Paul's eBook as a close friend and personal assistant to Mr. Freire, He also stated that:

"In March 1961, events hit closer to my home. Joaquín Freire quit the FPCC and was allowed to retire in Miami."

Here is what I can now report from the FBI documents I just received:

1. There is no reference to Harry Dean by name or by description.

2. There is no reference on any FBI-HQ or FBI-Chicago field or FBI-Washington field document to Harry's HQ or Chicago FBI file numbers (i.e. as though he had provided any information to the FBI about Freire)

3. An October 24, 1960 memo from SAC Chicago to FBI HQ states that the FBI learned that:

"...Dr. Freire returned to Cuba about four months ago and is no longer employed by the Cuban Government."

4. The last document I received is dated 11/9/60. A major section is redacted. It has been referred to the U.S. State Department VISA Office for processing.

5. I was able to discover the Chicago and Washington field file numbers re: Friere -- so I will request those next.

Postscript:

6. Freire was listed on the FBI Security Index.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

Though I believe I may have only interjected ever so briefly into this lengthy thread on only one occasion, and trust me I am not going back to confirm this, I would like to echo Larry's comments regarding the one true positive that at least to my mind has come out of this at times frustrating and acerbic topic/exchanges - Ernie's incredibly detailed information of record searches and results obtained and obtainable from the files of the FBI. Paul, unfortunately the historical trail from November 22, 1963 to the present time is littered with the corpses of true village idiots, beginning on the very day of Kennedy's death with the likes of Howard Leslie Brennan and Helen Markham. And though I may be wrong, it seems to me, by your ever annoying failure to answer the countless questions posed of and to both you and Harry Dean by Ernie Lazar that you are intent on getting to the very head of this same historical trail. And I, too, will not be returning to this thread.

FWIW

Well, you're welcome to do as you please, Gary.

As for Ernie's requests -- first, I can't supply information that I don't have. Also, I don't control Harry Dean.

Secondly, Ernie does supply valuable information from the FBI -- but his personal manners are often insulting, and that's why Harry Dean won't accommodate Ernie.

Thirdly, Ernie's interpretation of the FBI information he receives is one-sided and biased. There is more FBI information to be obtained, but Ernie isn't interested in all of it -- only in those files that support his negative approach to Harry Dean's account.

In fact, there are others who also found Edwin Walker close to the events of the JFK murder. Harry Dean isn't a lone voice in the woods.

If this thread fades away -- that's OK -- it has become enormous. Yet there are other threads on the Forum that also deal with Edwin Walker.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo