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Question for Josiah Thompson


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It is a great pleasure to welcome Josiah Thompson to the forum. Six Seconds in Dallas remains the starting point for investigating gunshots from the grassy knoll, and one reason for this is that Six Seconds was the first book to publish the Moorman photo, a vital piece of evidence ignored and neglected (and denied?) by the Warren Commission.

The Moorman photo appears on page 126 of Six Seconds, and a large blow-up appears on page 128. The photo shows a man's head looking over the wooden fence just to the right (from Moorman's POV) of Emmet Hudson. Although no weapon can be distinguished in the photo, this man is obviously within easy handgun range of JFK

The man behind the fence, sometimes known as "Hatman" is the subject of a fascinating new investigation by researcher Ricky Needham, and I would be most appreciative if Josiah Thompson would comment on Needham's work as presented on the Lancer link below.

Needham has identified a figure in the Nix film whom he believes is the same person highlighted by Thompson in Six Seconds. Researcher Bill Miller, who has considerable expertise in the photo evidence, agrees with Needham, even though to my untrained eye the man behind the fence in the Moorman photo seems to be a seperate person to the person in the Nix film.. Needham and Miller attribute the apparent difference in location to the different angles from which Moorman & Nix took their films.

Here is the Lancer link:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

and I look forward to Josiah Thompson's comments.

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Hello Mr. Carroll,

No, I wasn't aware of this. I used the link you were kind enough to provide and looked at the GIF. The location indicated by the arrow is considerably south of the location where the odd shape appears in the Moorman photo. Alas, I'm leaving tomorrow on vacation so I won't have a chance to look into this more exactly. Thanks very much for calling my attention to it.

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It is a great pleasure to welcome Josiah Thompson to the forum. Six Seconds in Dallas remains the starting point for investigating gunshots from the grassy knoll, and one reason for this is that Six Seconds was the first book to publish the Moorman photo, a vital piece of evidence ignored and neglected (and denied?) by the Warren Commission.

The Moorman photo appears on page 126 of  Six Seconds, and a large blow-up appears on page 128. The photo shows a man's head looking over the wooden fence just to the right (from Moorman's POV) of Emmet Hudson. Although no weapon can be distinguished in the photo, this man is obviously within easy handgun range of JFK 

The man behind the fence, sometimes known as "Hatman"  is the subject of a fascinating new investigation by researcher Ricky Needham, and I would be most appreciative if Josiah Thompson  would comment on Needham's work as presented on the Lancer link below.

Needham has identified a figure in the Nix film whom he believes is the same person highlighted by Thompson in Six Seconds. Researcher Bill Miller, who has considerable expertise in the photo evidence, agrees with Needham, even though to my untrained eye the man behind the fence in the Moorman photo seems to be a seperate person to the person in the Nix film.. Needham and Miller attribute the apparent difference in location to the different angles from which Moorman & Nix took their films. 

Here is the Lancer link:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

and I look forward to Josiah Thompson's comments.

There's considerable wavyness in the right side of the .gif animation. Clealy visible in the tree limbs. It consistently appears throughout left side of the animation ... the format these frames came from appears to be compressed NTSC videotape frames, the animation is compressed yet again, when posted... how you, Needham or any other film/photo researcher can determine these images display someone behind that wall is beyond me -- I'm sure it's not beyond BM [he'd do me the same favor :lol:] -- BMiller, who at onetime specialized in creating .gif animations...

btw, that Josiah's way of saying: thanks, but no thanks!

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There's considerable wavyness in the right side of the .gif animation. Clealy visible in the tree limbs. It consistently appears throughout left side of the animation ... the format these frames came from appears to be compressed NTSC videotape frames, the animation is compressed yet again, when posted... how you, Needham or any other film/photo researcher can determine these images display someone behind that wall is beyond me -- I'm sure it's not beyond BM [he'd do me the same favor :D] -- BMiller, who at onetime specialized in creating .gif animations...

btw, that Josiah's way of saying: thanks, but no thanks!

I would be more than happy to stabilize and isolate this portion of the film if I can find a better version than the one I have.

If anyone needs any "stabilizing" or "enhancement " done, feel free to email me or pm me through the board and I would gladly donate my time, equipment and resources.

Just get me the best quality stuff you can.

Cheers,

Dobson..

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There's considerable wavyness in the right side of the .gif animation. Clealy visible in the tree limbs. It consistently appears throughout left side of the animation ... the format these frames came from appears to be compressed NTSC videotape frames, the animation is compressed yet again, when posted... how you, Needham or any other film/photo researcher can determine these images display someone behind that wall is beyond me -- I'm sure it's not beyond BM [he'd do me the same favor :)] -- BMiller, who at onetime specialized in creating .gif animations...

btw, that Josiah's way of saying: thanks, but no thanks!

David, I do not claim photo/GIF expertise, but it seems to me that Rick Needham's GIF is tremendously important IF IT CAN BE REPLICATED FROM PROPER SOURCE DATA. Given your own expertise and presumably access to a decent Nix copy, can you either replicate OR disprove Needham's claims? Perhaps you could collaborate with Blair Dobson, who has so kindly volunteered his time and expertise.

Ray

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  • 1 month later...
Hello Mr. Carroll,

No, I wasn't aware of this. I used the link you were kind enough to provide and looked at the GIF. The location indicated by the arrow is considerably south of the location where the odd shape appears in the Moorman photo. Alas, I'm leaving tomorrow on vacation so I won't have a chance to look into this more exactly. Thanks very much for calling my attention to it.

Dr. Thompson;

As you may be aware, I have done considerable research into CE399/aka the "Magic" bullet.

Recently, you co-authored with Gary Aguilar, an article which dealt with the purported "chain of possession" of this bullet, from the time that it was found, upon receipt by the FBI, to later verification with witnesses who found the bullet at Parkland hospital.

In reviewing this article, it occured to me that many of those persons associated with the chain of custody of this evidence (CE399), should have physically marked the bullet.

Do you know if the present bullet bears any of these "chain of custody" markings, and if so, who these markings were made by?

Tom Purvis

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Thanks for your question, Mr. Purvis.

I haven't examined or held CE 399 in my hands since 1966. At that time, I wasn't looking for initials. Hence, from my own examination I can't tell you anything. From testimony, we would expect that Elmer Lee Todd's and Robert Frazier's initials should be on the bullet. If memory serves, Frazier even identified his mark on the bullet during testimony before the Warren Commission.

David Mantik was kind enough to send me a photocopy of the notes he took while examinint CE 399 at the Archives in 1995. He found the letter "Q" but could not discern whether it read "Q1." He also found the initials "RF" (for Robert Frazier) and "CK" (for Chuck Killion). Mantik associates a third odd mark with Elmer Lee Todd. This mark is composed of an upright capital "J" joined to a vertica slash on its left by a horizontal mark midway up the "J." I have no idea why Mantik believes this is the mark of Elmer Lee Todd. However, he may be familiar with Todd's mark from other contexts.

I know of no photo or photos of sufficiently high resolution of CE 399 to resolve the question of the marks. Do you? If none exist, someone might be able to resolve this by going to the Archives.

Edited by Josiah Thompson
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Thanks for your question, Mr. Purvis.

I haven't examined or held CE 399 in my hands since 1966. At that time, I wasn't looking for initials. Hence, from my own examination I can't tell you anything. From testimony, we would expect that Elmer Lee Todd's and Robert Frazier's initials should be on the bullet. If memory serves, Frazier even identified his mark on the bullet during testimony before the Warren Commission.

David Mantik was kind enough to send me a photocopy of the notes he took while examinint CE 399 at the Archives in 1995. He found the letter "Q" but could not discern whether it read "Q1." He also found the initials "RF" (for Robert Frazier) and "CK" (for Chuck Killion). Mantik associates a third odd mark with Elmer Lee Todd. This mark is composed of an upright capital "J" joined to a vertica slash on its left by a horizontal mark midway up the "J." I have no idea why Mantik believes this is the mark of Elmer Lee Todd. However, he may be familiar with Todd's mark from other contexts.

I know of no photo or photos of sufficiently high resolution of CE 399 to resolve the question of the marks. Do you? If none exist, someone might be able to resolve this by going to the Archives.

I am aware of Frazier's testimony in which he states that the bullet has his "mark".

Other than that, little has been presented as regards chain of custody markings by others who reportedly may have had possession of this bullet.

Among those marking which would appear to be missing would be that of FBI Agent Gallagher who also supposedly had access to this bullet for the original NAA work.

Gallagher personally informed me some years ago that the copper jacket base portion of CE399 was no different than any other WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet when he examined it.

From this, I would have to deduce that Gallagher had full access to the bullet.

Perhaps the bullet was in the custody of Frazier who also went to Oak Ridge during the NAA work???

Tom

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Thanks for your question, Mr. Purvis.

I haven't examined or held CE 399 in my hands since 1966. At that time, I wasn't looking for initials. Hence, from my own examination I can't tell you anything. From testimony, we would expect that Elmer Lee Todd's and Robert Frazier's initials should be on the bullet. If memory serves, Frazier even identified his mark on the bullet during testimony before the Warren Commission.

David Mantik was kind enough to send me a photocopy of the notes he took while examinint CE 399 at the Archives in 1995. He found the letter "Q" but could not discern whether it read "Q1." He also found the initials "RF" (for Robert Frazier) and "CK" (for Chuck Killion). Mantik associates a third odd mark with Elmer Lee Todd. This mark is composed of an upright capital "J" joined to a vertica slash on its left by a horizontal mark midway up the "J." I have no idea why Mantik believes this is the mark of Elmer Lee Todd. However, he may be familiar with Todd's mark from other contexts.

I know of no photo or photos of sufficiently high resolution of CE 399 to resolve the question of the marks. Do you? If none exist, someone might be able to resolve this by going to the Archives.

I am aware of Frazier's testimony in which he states that the bullet has his "mark".

Other than that, little has been presented as regards chain of custody markings by others who reportedly may have had possession of this bullet.

Among those marking which would appear to be missing would be that of FBI Agent Gallagher who also supposedly had access to this bullet for the original NAA work.

Gallagher personally informed me some years ago that the copper jacket base portion of CE399 was no different than any other WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet when he examined it.

From this, I would have to deduce that Gallagher had full access to the bullet.

Perhaps the bullet was in the custody of Frazier who also went to Oak Ridge during the NAA work???

Tom

I agree heartily. Surely, Elmer Todd is an important transfer agent here. He got the bullet from Rowley (head of the secret service) and took it to the FBI Lab where, supposedly, both he and Robert Frazier marked it. Then in June 1964, Todd took the bullet back to Rowley who told him he could not identify it.

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