Tim Gratz: Evidence Needed

[John Simkin]

I have noticed that several threads on the Forum have included Tim Gratz making statements that he claims he has evidence that Fidel Castro or the KGB were involved in the assassination of JFK. However, when asked to produce this evidence, he either ignores the postings, makes silly jokes that attempts to move posters onto another topic, makes excuses for his failure to post or makes promises that he will do it sometime in the future.

I thought it might be worthwhile to start a new thread on Tim Gratz’s evidence (or lack of it). Maybe members who are still waiting for answers should register their questions again on this thread.

[Tim Gratz]

John, what in the world good would it do?

Gus Russo does not claim that Castro did it but he does not exclude the possibility and his book is replete with evidence re Castro's motive and possible DGI agents in Dealey Plaza. I cannot post his entire book here. I can only encourage members to read it. But many, like Dawn, exclude the possibility that Castro did it and refuse to read Russo's book.

Similar situation exists with Trento's book.

If people want to seriously evaluate the evidence of Cuban involvement, they should read Russo's book, Trento's book and Kurtz's book. I do not claim to have substantial evidence other than those sources. well, let me amend that. I also believe Trento's book because I think Angleton was correct about many things, including the Nosenko affair. Further evidence would be that Richard Nagell claimed that the GRU had pre-knowledge of the upcoming assassination.

Everyone ought to know that I try to read just about everything I can about the assassination and I do not exclude any scenario provided there is some evidence to suggest it. Anyone who is sincere in wanting to solve the assassination ought to be willing to follow the evidence where it leads, and that would then include reading Russo, Trento and Kurtz. It is fine if they read the books with an open mind and then decide to reject them. But I don't think anyone can state he or she is willing to follow the evidence and then refuse to read those books.

Consider the evidence of DGI agents in Dealey Plaza. Robert Charles-Dunne writes off all such evidence solely because it is contained in CIA reports. One report came from the aunt of one of the agents, so Robert then argued the aunt was not a good source. I guess Robert would only believe it if the report included statements by both of the Cuban's parents and each of his siblings, and then only after each family member had undergone a polygraph examination.

That is why I am frustrated. Stu Wexler once posted that the possibility of Cuban involvement should not be excluded without a close analysis of the evidence. But few here seem willing to seriously consider the evidence that points to possible Cuban involvement.

Well I have vented my frustrations. That being said I will be glad to attempt to reformulate my arguments on this thread.

Thank you, John.l

Edited November 5, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Dawn Meredith]

John, what in the world good would it do?

Gus Russo does not claim that Castro did it but he does not exclude the possibility and his book is replete with evidence re Castro's motive and possible DGI agents in Dealey Plaza. I cannot post his entire book here. I can only encourage members to read it. But many, like Dawn, exclude the possibility that Castro did it and refuse to read Russo's book.

Why should I read a book by someone I believe to be a disinformationist? I am reading Mellen's book. I have suggested you read several books also TIm that you have not read. Please, why should I read a book just because YOU tell me to? I have read literally hundreds of books on this case. I don't need your advice or approval.

Think back to the days when you were an atty. How much time did you have to read books? So I take my reading time very seriously and will not waste it on the likes of Gus Russo.

Speaking of unanswered questions: I have asked you several times now what it is you DO for a living and you refuse to answer this question. I would not be so interested except your steadfast refusal to answer has made me more curious. (And please don't repost that you "have an office at Langley").

Dawn

[Larry Hancock]

Without getting involved in a debate on authors, I'll step back a ways for a few observations:

1) Tim should find examples of "evidence" bacause it was very much in the interest of the conspirators to plant such evidence....one example would be the box of material turned into the DPD a couple of weeks after the murder which tied Oswald to Ruby and both to mysterious foreign agents operationg out of Mexico. However he won't find much of this prepared material because it was either lost in the shuffle with the plan was blown or was suppressed by the investigation. Given how Mann and all the agencies in MC were shut down by Johnson and even RFK just for wanting to pursue the Cuban angle you can bet any samples of hard evidence (planted not real IMHO) are long gone.

2) Tim will find a great deal of gossip, rumor, innuendo and "leaks" from CIA sources which point towards Castro, that's been going on forever....Trento and Russo and Hosty for that matter have written about it. Hosty belives in a conspiracy with Oswald being motivated by either Cubans or Russians or both. The problem with these sources is that its all gossip and no real primary evidence. Jim belives it largely based on what his former FBI then CIA friends in MC told him...all that is in his book.

Included in this category are a number of bogus pos-assassination plants pointing the finger at Castro, ranging from the Pedro Charles letters to the Alvarado story not to mention a host of stories about Oswald meeting Cubans at the Consulate in MC and taking money from them. I also have file copies of fascinating and mysterious reports where military folks claimed to have heard rumors of intercepted Cuban radio transmissions organizing the assassination and other similar stories. Not to mention the fact that if you check the CIA segreatated file collection you find the CIA surfacing such rumors at every opportunity all the way through the HSCA...including proposing that Odio's visitors were Cuban agents.

3) There is no doubt a good deal of people were looking for hard evidence, I just reviewed a memo written a couple of weeks after the assassination where NSA is telling the FBI that they are reviewing months of pre-assassination Cuban communications intercepts for any signs of Cuban involvement. The FBI encourages them saying they are checking all Cuban angles themselves. CIA called in all their Cuban informants including informants who had been visiting or in contact with the MC Cuban consulate....asking if they had heard any rumors or gossip that Oswald had been involved with the staff or was in any way connected to Cuban intel (CIA even called on their Cuban intel sources) ...and turned up nothing. All those communications are also in the segregated files.

....so, Tim, if you look you are going to turn up quite a collection of Cuban leads....which will lead you just where a number of poeple wanted to take you....well at least way back when there were real investigations in progress...

-- Larry

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Quote on Tim Gratz, June 21st 2005.

"I can now report the identity of one person who reported seeing a cuban spy in a photo of Dealy plaza, the man identified the spy as Raul Diaz. The man who made this report to the Church Committee was Antonio Veciana."

1, Tim, any further news on where this photo may be located?

2, Could you please provide dates, names and places, when Oswald was seen with DGI officers, who according to this story must have been the ones who "Patsyfied" him?

3, Do you now except that Veciana's statement about Diaz is not formal church Committee testimony? But is simply an off the record interview that ended up in a dumpbin, That it was not taken under oath, that you have no idea who took the statement, or actual dates?

Regards, Steve.

[Ron Ecker]

To repeat an oft made observation, Castro could not have managed the cover-up. It therefore follows, for those who believe that Castro was behind the assassination, that Johnson and the WC covered up for Castro. Why? Because Johnson told crying Earl Warren that if it came to light that Castro did it, it would lead to WWIII. Well, I for one refuse to believe that if Castro assassinated JFK, and we rightfully retaliated by invading Cuba to get rid of Castro, that the Russians would have launched WWIII to protect the assassin. That possibility was nothing but BS from Lyndon Johnson, because Johnson knew damn well who did it and it wasn't Castro. As I recall from Caro's book, even back in his college days Johnson was known by his fellow students as Horsexxxx Johnson.

[Thomas Graves]

Hi Ron,

I agree. Your argument has excellent logic to it.

IMHO, Thomas

[Tim Carroll]

I thought it might be worthwhile to start a new thread on Tim Gratz’s evidence (or lack of it). Maybe members who are still waiting for answers should register their questions again on this thread.

I am awaiting the source for a statement about the timing of RFK's October contact with Desmond FitzGerald, as evidenced by his phone logs, showing that RFK was involved in the Cubela AM/LASH plot.

Tim

[Gerry Hemming]

Quote on Tim Gratz, June 21st 2005.

"I can now report the identity of one person who reported seeing a cuban spy in a photo of Dealy plaza, the man identified the spy as Raul Diaz. The man who made this report to the Church Committee was Antonio Veciana."

1, Tim, any further news on where this photo may be located?

2, Could you please provide dates, names and places, when Oswald was seen with DGI officers, who according to this story must have been the ones who "Patsyfied" him?

3, Do you now except that Veciana's statement about Diaz is not formal church Committee testimony? But is simply an off the record interview that ended up in a dumpbin, That it was not taken under oath, that you have no idea who took the statement, or actual dates?

Regards, Steve.

---------------------------

Steve:

What Gratz is NOT going to discover is: The D.G.I./D.S.E. "illegal" Raul Diaz, later went on to work with Sov/Spetsnaz as an "LCB" combatant in the Escambray, Angola, both Congos, and Syria. He opted out of the "Che" Bolivia operation during 1966. He was initially trained by Czech Intel in Prague [highest rated after MOSSAD]. A cousin, one Sgt. Raul Diaz [later Lt.] worked for the Organized Crime Bureau, Dade County Sheriff's Dept. -- based at the old "corrosion corner" Air Corps barracks at Miami Int'l Airport.

He grew incensed at Veciana's "sworn" statements [affidavits], most of which remain classified, and especially those regarding his Habanero cousin. An "Internal Affairs" and FBI/SS investigation seemingly cleared him of the later attempt on Tony's life, while some now retired L.E. types remain curious as to his proximity in the assassinations [& attempted hits] of numerous Cuban exiles during the 1970s, including BA2506/BOP Chaplain Fr. Cruz [silenced MAC-10s, broad daylight, passing tinted window van, on the Palmetto X-way -- during rush hour];

Torriente, Peyuyero, et al.!! However, the actual perp on Prio, Pawley, et al. was identified later and ignored. One of my daughters had a pre-teen crush on him, and she thoroughly enjoyed a group lunch with him [as a adult] during the 1990s.

At the time of the HSCA, I held a desk at a Miami trucking firm, which was directed by an active D.G.I. agent. When "deputy dog" Diaz came by one day to intimidate me into intimidating Veciana, but upon his glancing over to the DGI guy's desk, his face went stark white -- and he asked me to step out into the hallway. Once there, he urged me to "forget" that he was ever there !! [Man could that DGI guy write like John Hancock, I mean, rapidly and every page looked like the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution. An amazing caligraphist]

Within the hour, I got a "mis-dialed old lady call", which told me that somebody in D.C. wanted to chat. The "secure" telephone was downstairs in the coffee shop, and for those astute enough; simple checking will show that at that time, and into the 1990s, said telephone was registered in Orlando, not Miami.

The "Yankee" contact wanted to know "what-the-hell-was" Diaz doing there ??!! Moreover, this person insinuated that it was my obligation to "Put-a-Lid" on any further comments by Veciana, as it was the "highest-priority Nat'l Security interest" to shut him up !! In closing, the "cut-out" stated that Diaz would be handled discreetly, and WITHOUT prejudice. [Diaz later retired with "Honors"]

For those who might have missed it: The Odio sisters were recruited into Manolo Ray's J.U.R.E. during 1963 [by Cisneros], precisely because they had arranged for both to be "dangled" to Fidel's Mex. D.F., Monterrey, and Juarez based D.G.I. agents. LHO's purpose in visiting Sylvia & Annie was to gain even more pro-Fidel bona fides, and amongst others visited, were a few other DGI "sleepers"! He also played the same game with "sleeper suspect" Nico Crespi, and "Commandante Diego's" 1st cousin, a DGI agent who had been dispatched to CONUS from Monterrey, Mex. !!

LHO's "monitors", as opposed to his RFK "handlers", still remain "compartmented" as to the "big-picture" even today. Mellen insisted on speaking personally with both the "monitors" and the "handlers" [some of whom reside outside CONUS today; but she wouldn't take NO for an answer """...Even after more than 40 years ??!!..."; and moreover, ran out of time to make physical inspections of the two "Isolation Sites" ["A" & "B"] where RFK had been in LHO's presence twice !! The sites are "Chekika State Park" and "Avocado Drive" Commo/swimmer training/transit bases. RFK was choppered by USN H-3 "Sea King" from Lantana

Airport, West Palm Beach, FL [CIA "Jump School/Transit base] directly to Homestead General Aviation [civil] Airport [always at night]; where he transferred to a loaned SS Van equipped with hi-tech commo. gear, and was thereupon driven to both sites.

The Navy H-3 crew was the same used by both me and John Adrian O'hare when transport was needed, especially when we were temporarily fighting the Everglades grass fires during early 1962. This same crew parked their two H-3s behind Air Force One upon JFK's visit to Miami [11/18/63]; and upon the PIC calling me over, as we left [during JFK's speech at MIA] -- I asked why the ridiculous [and unauthorized] "U.S. Army" Modex was painted on the tails. Response: "...That is what the A.G. insisted upon...we have been flying him around all year.."!! This "lead" H-3 later flew JFK to Miami Beach via a circuitous air route.

"Nothing new here...so velly solly..you plicks donna like flied lice ??.."

GPH

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"Great Scott...I've run out of sky" [incident during 1958: US Navy "Anymouse Reports"]

______________________________

[Thomas Graves]

To repeat an oft made observation, Castro could not have managed the cover-up. It therefore follows, for those who believe that Castro was behind the assassination, that Johnson and the WC covered up for Castro. Why? Because Johnson told crying Earl Warren that if it came to light that Castro did it, it would lead to WWIII. Well, I for one refuse to believe that if Castro assassinated JFK, and we rightfully retaliated by invading Cuba to get rid of Castro, that the Russians would have launched WWIII to protect the assassin. That possibility was nothing but BS from Lyndon Johnson, because Johnson knew damn well who did it and it wasn't Castro. As I recall from Caro's book, even back in his college days Johnson was known by his fellow students as Horsexxxx Johnson.

Hi Ron,

Sorry I totally deleted your post. (I'm trying to make amends by including it in this post.)

I wish everyone could see that the Russians would'nt have risked starting WW3 simply for our invading Cuba especially if/since they knew that Castro hadn't assassinated Kennedy. Maybe it's too obvious.

FWIW, Thomas

[Thomas Graves]

Richard Nagell claimed that the GRU had pre-knowledge of the upcoming assassination.

Hi Tim,

If the GRU or the KGB or whatever did have pre-knowledge of the assassination, it might simply indicate that Russian Intellegence had already penetrated the "circles" or "cells" or "communication channels" in/through which the rogue(?) U.S. intelligence agencies/officers/agents were conspiring to assassinate JFK. It doesn't necessarilly indicate that the Ruskies or Castro offed Kennedy themselves........

FWIW, Thomas

Edited November 5, 2005 by Thomas Graves

[Tim Carroll]

I wish everyone could see that the Russians would'nt have risked starting WW3 simply for our invading Cuba especially if/since they knew that Castro hadn't assassinated Kennedy.

The movie, Seven Days In May, has a great scene in which the President makes the point to the coup general that if the Soviets understood America to have been militarily overthrown, a nuclear conflict would be imminent. Game Theory.

Tim

[Thomas Graves]

I wish everyone could see that the Russians would'nt have risked starting WW3 simply for our invading Cuba especially if/since they knew that Castro hadn't assassinated Kennedy.

The movie, Seven Days In May, has a great scene in which the President makes the point to the coup general that if the Soviets understood America to have been militarily overthrown, a nuclear conflict would be imminent. Game Theory.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Yeah, kinda like table stakes "Texas Hold 'Em."

I haven't seen that film yet but I've heard about it and I know it's a classic. I'll try to rent the DVD today to find out: 1) whether or not the coup general backs down (my guess is that he does simply because you say that the President "MAKES THE POINT..."), and if he doesn't back down, then 2) whether or not the President's warning turns out to be correct. I suppose a good reason for the coup general to back down is that even the thought of an imminent nuclear war can ruin anyone's day.......

Another thought: maybe the U.S. WAS overthrown militarily (as in the sense of a coup organized by Major General EDWARD Lansdale (ret.)) on 11/22/63...........

Thanks and

FWIW, Thomas

Edited November 5, 2005 by Thomas Graves

[Gerry Hemming]

To repeat an oft made observation, Castro could not have managed the cover-up. It therefore follows, for those who believe that Castro was behind the assassination, that Johnson and the WC covered up for Castro. Why? Because Johnson told crying Earl Warren that if it came to light that Castro did it, it would lead to WWIII. Well, I for one refuse to believe that if Castro assassinated JFK, and we rightfully retaliated by invading Cuba to get rid of Castro, that the Russians would have launched WWIII to protect the assassin. That possibility was nothing but BS from Lyndon Johnson, because Johnson knew damn well who did it and it wasn't Castro. As I recall from Caro's book, even back in his college days Johnson was known by his fellow students as Horsexxxx Johnson.

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Ron:

Mayhaps Gratz should take a few more correspondence courses on articulate historical writing -- Maybe John might assist in this "schooling" !!

One again, and firstly: Did you miss my post on LBJ wanting to use the SR-71 ["Oxcart"] instead of the U2 for imaging/SIGINT/and Gamma/Beta emmission dectection during the 1965 Cuba overflights cycle ??!!

[Google "Sierra Aranzazu" and it will lead you to the State F.R.U.S. declassifed lenghty documents reference same] This was in response to Dawn's rejection of my "blasting out all of the windows in Cuba, from one end of the island to the other.

LBJ's intimidation of Warren and others had absolutely nothing to do with the Soviets reacting to: either a "surgical-strike" attack [NOT invasion] against specific Cuban targets, or other means as a reaction to publisizing of any inculpatory evidence as to DGI/GRU having "plotted" a JFK or RFK assassination.

LBJ KNEW at the time that: not only were the nuke-tipped "Luna" [scud/golem/cruise] anti-maritime defense missiles still in place at the Sov/controlled Banes Naval Base [Oriente]; but even after Gribkov was "promoted" -- these nuke missile site commanders had autonomous authority to fire upon any hostile amphibious task force. The shallow water sub-surface nuke detonations would have been slightly less than "Crossroads" [bikini Atoll]; but the prevailing "easterlies" would have carried sufficent fallout so as to cause the southeastern U.S. to"glow-in-the-dark" for a 2,000 year half-life.

More worrisome to LBJ & cohorts, was the fact that the Soviets had been forced to leave 2 thermo-nukes

buried [under concrete, lead & copper mesh - no re-bar] after losing Sov/technicians to radiation poisoning while transfer was attempted from storage-site "Bejucal". These were "city-buster" T/Nukes, and intentional or accidental empathetic detonation would have affected everything within a circle which included: mid-Caribbean and north to Pennsylvania, east-west from Bermuda to New Mexico !!

The Soviets had failed in their ["miniaturizing"] engineering of warheads, and had replaced the triggers with Tritium-based modules -- but unlike our "Trit" modules, theirs degraded rapidly and horrifically. This is the reasoning behind the suitcase nuke "deniers, whom recently claimed that the late Sov/General Lebed was full of xxxx because the mini-Trit modules required contstant care, electrical power A.P.U.s, etc. -- so therefore, any of same would be out-of-date or inert by now -- so therefore [they insist] any Spetnaz SC/Nukes installed in CONUS [Malmstrom & Minot USAF Missile Silo AF Bases] are NOT a current threat.

The biggest LBJ worry was that an insane Fidel, Raul, et al. might attempt an "empathetic" detonation of one or both T/Nukes by using "Luna" [fission] warheads as initiators. The Soviets lost 2 "Yankee Class" converted "Boomers" while attempting to remove the last T/Nukes, and most likely it was a "China Syndrome/Chernobyl" meltdown caused by the degrading Trit-modules.

Most of the 1963 thru 1968 evidence indicated that the DGI/GRU JFK "plot" was done behind Fidel's back, and amongst those highest on the "protect el maximo jefe/boss" list was Cmdte. Manual "Barba Roja" Pineiro, the DSE boss of the "Americas Desk-Wet Ops". Since others on the "Bigot List" have family here, in Cuba, Spain and Eastern Europe, they will remain unnamed.

During the late 1970s, one of my guys had purchased a surplus USAF jet fighter warbird, and since he had been "inside" on our reporting pre-missile crisis -- he was contracted to high altitude flights, with radiation sensor pods attached to the fuselage. He regularly flew the Key West [south of 24 North Habana Center control] non-stop to the ex-Ramey USAF Base at Borrenquin, Puerto Rico. No, he wasn't interested in anything about these upper-air samplings, other than enjoying the blackening sky, and watching for rare MiG flights. [Rare, because Cuba was short of JP-3 and AvGas, not to mention spare parts]

Y'all need to get on up to NSArchive and NARA. The risk of the Congress issueing "Letters of Marque", and thus bypassing completely the "Executive Branch", was what worried "Horexxxx/Dumbass" Johnson the most during the initial stages of the WC cover-up.

Semper Ignoramus,

GPH

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[Ron Ecker]

Gerry,

It seems to me that what you are saying could be the reason Johnson as president vetoed the "blame it on Castro" part of the JFK plot. I believe that Johnson was in on, or had foreknowledge of, the assassination, knew that Castro didn't do it, and didn't want the problems that blaming it on Castro would create.

The one big problem for Johnson (how to become president and stay out of prison) had been taken care of. I'm sure it was with relief that he promptly opted for the lone-nut scenario, against the wishes of CIA and military folks whom he figured he could pacify by giving them (and his fat-cat Texas friends) the Vietnam War.

Ron