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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

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In 1959, the 18 year old son of I.B. Hale was cleared by a Coroner's Jury in the shotgun death of his 16 year old pregnant wife, Kathleen, who was the daughter of John Connolly. The jury found that Kathleen Hale was killed by the accidental discharge of a 20 gauge shotgun.

A fingerprint expert said no prints recognizable as Robert's were found on the gun. However, a palm print which could have been Kathleen's was found. Could have been?

Robert claimed she was in good spirits the night before her death but then suddenly she left their apartment and didn't return until late the following morning. He said that he went out to search for her on several occasions and when he returned from his last trip, she was seated on the couch holding a shotgun. Robert tried to persuade her to put it down but she brought the weapon up to her head. He claimed that, "at the last desperate moment, I lunged at the gun and hit it. It hit the wall and she was still." He claimed not to know if the gun went off before or after he had hit it.

Detective Bob Maige said, "It looked like it was very possible that it was an accident." He continued by saying that, "a little squabble like kids have preceded the shooting."

The charge that killed her entered behind Kathleen's right ear. What the...?

When police arrived on the scene, neighbors were restraining Robert from jumping out the second story window.

I'm am at a quandary as to this making complete sense.

Robert Hale grew up in affluent circumstances in Fort Worth, Tex.

His father was I.B. Hale, an All-American tackle at Texas Christian who in 1939 was the first-round draft pick of the Washington Redskins. I.B. became an FBI agent and later worked for General Dynamics, the defense contractor in Fort Worth.

When he was still in high school, Bobby Hale, as everyone called him then, eloped to Florida with Kathleen Connally. She was 16 and the daughter of John B. Connally, later to become the Texas governor wounded in the assassassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Shortly after the elopement in 1958, Kathleen died of a gunshot wound. A Florida deputy sheriff told Connally, as he wrote in his autobiography, "there may have been a suicide pact, and Bobby backed out."

Asked about Connally's book, Pilgrim denied any suicide pact and said Kathleen's death was an accident. He said he was in the hotel room when she died, but declined to give details about how she supposedly fired a shotgun into her face.

Five years after Kathleen's death, Bobby turned up in Southern California and insinuated himself into the life of another well-known figure from the Kennedy era, according to Seymour M. Hersh's book "The Dark Side of Camelot."

Citing unreleased FBI documents, Hersh writes that Bobby joined his twin brother, Billy, in breaking into the Los Angeles apartment of Judith Exner, a woman who later acknowledged having an affair with Kennedy. An FBI agent observed the break-in on Aug. 7, 1962, but made no attempt to arrest the Hale brothers, according to Hersh.

In the book, Hersh speculates that the break-in was part of a successful attempt by the Hales' father, I.B., then chief of security at General Dynamics, to blackmail Kennedy into giving the company a major defense contract.

"That is ridiculous," said Pilgrim, when asked about the Hersh book. "I wasn't there, and neither was my brother. Mr. Hersh is a xxxx."

Through the 1960s and into the '70s, Bobby Hale called himself "Sunstar." He lived in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco, worked on a commune in Oregon and says that he "rode a horse across South America on my quest to find the answer."

While camping out in the Southern California desert, he met Kurina Rose Bresler, a 16-year-old from suburban Los Angeles. She would become the mother of the 15 children now living with him in Alaska. (Pilgrim has three other children from two previous marriages.) "My daughter was running around with friends, and they were into drugs at the time -- that's when she met Bobby," said Kurina's mother, Betty Freeman, an actress and singer who lives in Sherman Oaks, Calif. She is married to producer Joel Freeman, whose movies include "Shaft."

One of things we now know is that to keep people from talking after the assassination of JFK, threats were made against the children of those who had important information about the case. Did this also happen to John Connally? Here is an interesting interview with Nellie Connally that appeared in the Dallas Morning News on 22nd November, 2003:

"It kept going through my mind like a phonograph record playing over and over and over. But for John, it was even worse. His first night home, he cried out in his sleep. I would just pat him on the shoulder, and he'd go back to sleep. Ten days after, I asked him, 'What is it you dream, dear?' And he said, 'Nellie, somebody's always after me. With a gun.' So I just let him cry out. He did that for a month or six weeks and they were always after him."

Her own waking nightmare "has us all in the car. Everyone's having a wonderful time. Everyone's being so good, and then all of a sudden the horror starts. There is never anything good after that happening in that car. The car is filled with yellow roses, red roses and blood. And pieces of the president's brain."

Connally regrets that President Kennedy's legacy - and, by extension, the nation's - could have been so much brighter in the years ahead. "We were all in our 40s," she says of the passengers in the top car of VIP's. "We all had so much to give."

But Dealey Plaza would come to dictate an entirely different reality.

"For the first time in my life, I feared for my family," she said. "And I never had before. Mark, our youngest, was 11 at the time. There was this wall at the governor's mansion (in Austin) that he loved to walk around. Well, he could no longer walk around that wall. We were afraid somebody would snatch him off of it. Sharon, 14 at the time, could no longer go anywhere without someone going with her. It became, in some ways, a difficult life for us, and for me. And even to this day, I still take a glance behind me, just to make sure."

Great research James and Lee. The use of the shotgun does not surprise me at all. This was the way that a large number of people who knew too much about the assassination died. This included Phil Graham who committed suicide with a shotgun before the assassination. It has to be remembered that Mac Wallace killed Henry Marshall with a rifle and tried to make it look like suicide. This is not incompetence - it is a warning. Wouldn't it frighten you when people have such powerful friends that they can convince the authorities that people who are obviously murdered are ruled as suicides?

Let's not forget that in 1969, Fred Korth's daughter Verita, supposedly killed herself with a 20 gauge shotgun. Same sort of weapon involved with the Hale death and also the weapon of choice for George De Mohrenschildt.

I think it is worth mentioning that as a mode of taking one's life, woman rarely resort to such violent measures. It would be interesting to get some statistics regarding that.

Frank Wisner, Phil Graham's buddy at Operation Mockingbird also "killed himself" using a shotgun. William Pawley went the same way. Do did Leo Damore (the journalist who discovered who killed Mary Pinchot Meyer). Roger D. Craig and Carlos Prio also died from "self-inflicted gunshot wounds"

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It might seem strange that I am suggesting that a death in 1959 might be related to the assassination to JFK. However, 1959 was an important year for the Suite 8F Group. This was the year that the Air Force began to argue that it needed a successor to its F-105 tactical fighter. It was decided that the US Navy needed the same kind of aircraft. This became known as the TFX/F-111 project.

1959 was also the year that General Dynamics was on the verge of bankruptcy. It needed the TFX project to survive (by the time the project was eventually cancelled in 1970 it had created $22 million in revenues for General Dynamics). The president of General Dynamics was Frank Pace. He had been Secretary of the Army in 1951-53. His assistant was Fred Korth who was a member of the Suite 8F Group with Lyndon Johnson and John Connally.

To get the contract General Dynamics needed people involved in the decision making process. This is why Johnson blackmailed JFK to get Connally the post as Secretary of the Navy. He was also probably responsible for getting General Dynamics’ lawyer, Roswell Gilpatric, as Deputy Secretary of Defense.

For some reason, Connally was reluctant to get involved in this scandal. He probably felt that they would never get away with it. Was the killing of his daughter something to do with this? Anyway, although he agreed to become Secretary of the Navy, he resigned from office before the contract was signed (he claimed he wanted to concentrate on local politics and was eventually elected as Governor of Texas). LBJ then had to blackmail JFK in giving the job to Korth. Released documents show that Korth and Gilpatric played important roles in making sure that General Dynamics got the TFX contract.

The fact that I. B. Hale’s son was with Kathleen Connally when she died does seem extremely suspicious. Hale, a former FBI agent, was head of security at General Dynamics. In John la Carre’s book, The Constant Gardner, he makes the point that the head of security at large corporations are often responsible for arranging the deaths of people who pose a threat to the business interest of the company. Carre is a former MI5 agent and knows how these things work.

In Seymour Hersh’s book, The Dark Side of Camelot, he points out that it was two of Hale’s sons who were involved in the break-in at Judith Campbell Exner’s apartment. Hersh suggests that General Dynamics were involved in blackmailing JFK into agreeing the TFX contract. We do know that JFK was concerned about LBJ’s corrupt activities. It was the reason that JFK gave Evelyn Lincoln when he discussed the sacking of LBJ as VP. We also know that RFK was leaking information about LBJ’s corrupt activities to John Williams. In October, 1963, JFK sacked Korth as Secretary of the Navy. JFK did not appear to be responding to General Dynamics blackmail threats. Maybe the death of JFK was the next stage in the TFX story.

It is also possible that the assassins were firing on John Connally as well as JFK in Dallas. He must have been considered a dangerous witness to have around. Does this also explain Nellie Connally’s comments that she feared for the lives of her three remaining children after the assassination.

The fact that Korth’s own daughter kills herself with a shotgun in 1969 is again highly suspicious. Was Korth threatening to talk about the TFX contract and the JFK assassination?

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Christopher Barger, memorandum to Jeremy Gunn (18th May, 1995)

I interviewed former US Army captain and CIA employee Bradley Ayers on May 12, 1995, at Ayers' home in Woodbury, Minnesota. The interview lasted from 10.00 a.m. to 3.00 p.m. The following is a summary and report of the interview...

Q. Did Morales ever try and pass himself off as Cuban?

A. Not to Ayers' knowledge, but "he could easily pass for Cuban." Morales was allegedly a very good actor, and "could pull off lots of roles." Here the conversation drifted into a discussion of David Morales and his emotional makeup. Ayers charged that Morales was a "mean" man who "paraded around the station like a tyrant." Everyone was apparently afraid of him. Morales hung with what Ayers called the "circle" - Morales, Roselli, Tony Sforza, Manuel Artime and Rip Robertson. The four were drinking buddies and of like mind on politics. Ayers said they were vicious, too. "If anyone put together a sniper team to hit the President, Morales, Rip, Rosselli and Sforza would have done it." Ayers noted that Artime, Robertson, Rosselli and Sforza all died just as the HSCA began investigating. He suggests checking for Morales' whereabouts during the late seventies, especially on the times these men were killed.

Ayers is right that these men all died in the 1970s: Rip Robertson (1970), John Roselli (July 1976), Manuel Artime (November, 1977) and Tony Sforza (December, 1978). However, David Morales could not have killed all these men as he himself died six months before Tony Sforza (May, 1978).

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Larry Stern was a close friend of mine, and became assistant managing editor of the WashPost. He was by far their star investigative reporter, and made a lot of enemies during the LTV scandal, the Bobby Baker scandal, and many others. He knew who had been involved in the JFK assassination. It was because he was totally straight (and a true champion of the underdog) that he was not chosen to become managing editor. Eventually, it was decided to get rid of him, so the Agency (or the Enterprise – meaning the privatized part of the Agency) had Larry shot with a compressed air rifle firing a tiny dart, the same method used on Schlei, and on many others. The choice of poisons varies, depending on the objective. This almost invisible dart has a much greater range than the jeweler’s watch bearing fired by the equivalent Soviet assassination weapon, used on the Bulgarian emigres. If you find this hard to believe, look closely at the snuffing of Dr. Richard Kelly in UK.

As to Phil Graham, he was up to his ears in the manipulation of JFK in behalf of LBJ and the Robber Barons – as you’ve shown. Like several other big players, he began to go bonkers with the burden of what he had been involved in, was drinking heavily, whoring around so that Kay Graham was mightily pissed, and there were many of us at the WashPost who concluded that his purported suicide did not wash. It was an assisted suicide.

My expertise on this topic comes from my research for YELLOW RAIN during which I became a very close friend of the chief forensic pathologist at the Agency, Dr. Christopher ("Kit") Green, who was here visiting last year with his second wife.

During that period (late 1970s, early 1980s) I was able to study snuffing methods of both the KGB and the Agency, and the pharmacopia, discussing much of this with Kit.

Larry Stern's death was described in the press as an incident while jogging on a beach in Martha's Vineyard with a friend, wearing a bathing suit.

He suddenly felt a beesting on his calf, halted and reached down presumably to brush off the bee (or whatever), and fell over dead. It was postulated that he died from a coronary caused by a blood clot or something, and as I recall there was no autopsy because it was portrayed as a perfectly natural thing to happen. Sometimes when you get a coronary, you feel it first as a sharp pain in some other part of the body. But as you learn fro studying snake venoms, neurotoxic venoms from vipers kill you in seconds, while haemotoxic venoms like those from cobras take as much as a minute or longer to travel through your bloodstream from your ankle or calf to your heart. This would obviously be the case with a blood clot. The key here is that Larry (and Norbert Schlei and others I've studied) felt a sting on the ankle, calf or thigh and then fell down dead in a matter of four or five seconds.

Larry had a lot of enemies in high positions, including some at the WashPost where Larry always was a champion of the Post's labor unions.

Larry's father had spent his life as a typesetter at the WashPost, so Larry was a champion of the underdog. And, as you know, champions of the underdog are often seen as pariahs by the Oligopoly. It was Larry who broke the Ling-Temco-Vought and Bobby Baker scandals, and many others, and the powers that be at the WashPost disliked him enough to by-pass him when it came time to appoint one of the Assistant Managing Editors to be the new Managing Editor.

The guy they chose was a total, devious, scumbag, perpetual turncoat. Then, of course, when Kay died, little Donny took over the WashPost, and little Donny had grown up inside the Poohbah cabal. For many years, Donny made the WashPost a far right antithesis of what it had seemed to be during the Bobby Baker and Watergate years. But it was ALWAYS an Establishment/Cabal newspaper, merely posing as champion of Liberalism. Much as Averell Harriman posed as a Liberal, and member of the Democratic Party, when he was the owner of NEWSWEEK during the years NEWSWEEK colluded in the rescue of Hirohito, the snuffing of war crimes investigators, and the rescue of indicted war criminals from Sugamo Prison. See our THE YAMATO DYNASTY for all of that.

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Some writers who have investigated the assassination of John F. Kennedy have claimed that a large number of witnesses to the event have died in mysterious circumstances. The Sunday Times reported that "the odds against these witnesses being dead by February, 1967, were one hundred thousand trillion to one." When the Select Committee on Assassinations questioned the newspaper reporter who wrote the article, he admitted he had made a "careless journalistic mistake".

In his book Crossfire, the author Jim Marrs, provided a list of 103 people who he claims died in mysterious circumstances between 1963 and 1976. In reality, most of these people died of natural causes. Some of these people did die in accidents. Others were murdered or committed suicide. However, these people rarely had information that would have been important in helping investigators discover if there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

After the assassination of President Kennedy, Gary Underhill told his friend, Charlene Fitsimmons, that he was convinced that he had been killed by members of the CIA. He also said: "Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. It's too much. The bastards have done something outrageous. They've killed the President! I've been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they did!"

Underhill believed there was a connection between Executive Action, Fidel Castro and the death of John F. Kennedy: "They tried it in Cuba and they couldn't get away with it. Right after the Bay of Pigs. But Kennedy wouldn't let them do it. And now he'd gotten wind of this and he was really going to blow the whistle on them. And they killed him!"

Gary Underhill told friends that he feared for his life: "I know who they are. That's the problem. They know I know. That's why I'm here. I can't stay in New York." Underhill was found dead on 8th May 1964. He had been shot in the head and it was officially ruled that he had committed suicide. However, in his book, Destiny Betrayed, James DiEugenio claimed that the bullet entered the right-handed Underhill's head behind the left ear.

There has been a significant number of people who have died who did appear to have important information about the case. This includes several journalists investigating the murder. On 24th November, 1963, Bill Hunter of the Long Beach Press Telegram and Jim Koethe of the Dallas Times Herald interviewed George Senator. Also there was the attorney Tom Howard. Earlier that day Senator and Howard had both visited Jack Ruby in jail.

It is not known what was said at this meeting but on 23rd April 1964, Hunter was shot dead by Creighton Wiggins, a policeman in the pressroom of a Long Beach police station. Wiggins initially claimed that his gun fired when he dropped it and tried to pick it up. In court this was discovered that this was impossible and it was decided that Hunter had been murdered. Wiggins finally admitted he was playing a game of quick draw with his fellow officer. The other officer, Errol F. Greenleaf, testified he had his back turned when the shooting took place. In January 1965, both were convicted and sentenced to three years probation.

Jim Koethe decided to write a book about the assassination of Kennedy. However, he died on 21st September, 1964. It seems that a man broke into his Dallas apartment and killed him by a karate chop to the throat. Tom Howard died of a heart-attack, aged 48, in March, 1965.

On 21st July, 1964, Dr. Mary Sherman was murdered in New Orleans. She had been stabbed in the heart, arm, leg and stomach. Her laboratory was also set on fire. The crime has never been sold. Later Edward T. Haslam published Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus : The Story of an Underground Medical Laboratory. In the book he argued that Sherman was working with David Ferrie. Haslam believed that this Central Intelligence Agency backed research involved disease intelligence gathering and cancer research using laboratory-made biological weapons. Haslam claimed this biological weapon was to be used against Cuba’s Fidel Castro.

Judyth Baker later began giving interviews aboout involvement in an anti-Castro conspiracy. She claims that in 1963 she was recruited by Dr. Canute Michaelson to work with Dr. Alton Ochsner and Dr. Mary Sherman in a CIA secret project. This involved creating the means to insure Fidel Castro developed cancer.

In 1963 Judyth moved to New Orleans where she worked closely with others involved in this plot. This included Lee Harvey Oswald, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw and Guy Bannister. Later she claimed she began an affair with Oswald. The research into this biological weapon was carried out in the homes of Ferrie and Sherman. Oswald role in this conspiracy was to work as a courier. However, the project was abandoned in September, 1963, and Oswald was ordered to Dallas.

Oswald kept in touch with Baker and in November, 1963, he had been forced to join a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Oswald believed that the conspiracy was being organized by Mafia leader, Carlos Marcello and a CIA agent, David Atlee Phillips. Oswald told her he would do what he could to ensure that Kennedy was not killed. After the assassination of Kennedy and the arrest of Oswald, Baker received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events.

Dorothy Kilgallen, a crime reporter of the New York Journal, obtained a private interview with Jack Ruby. She told friends that she had information that would "break the case wide open". Aware of what had happened to Bill Hunter and Jim Koethe, she handed her interview notes to her friend Margaret Smith. On 8th November, 1965, Kilgallen, was found dead. It was reported she had committed suicide. Her friend, Margaret Smith, died two days later.

Two of the men that Jim Garrison believed were involved in the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, Guy Bannister (June, 1964) and David Ferrie ( February, 1967) died before they could be brought to court.

Roger D. Craig was on duty in Dallas on 22nd November, 1963. After hearing the firing at President John F. Kennedy he ran towards the Grassy Knoll where he interviewed witnesses to the shooting. About 15 minutes later he saw a man running from the back door of the Texas Book Depository down the slope to Elm Street. He then got into a Nash station wagon.

Craig saw the man again in the office of Captain Will Fitz. It was the recently arrested Lee Harvey Oswald. When Craig told his story about the man being picked up by the station wagon, Oswald replied: "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine... Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Craig was also with Seymour Weitzman when the rifle was found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository. He insisted that the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser and not a Mannlicher-Carcano.

Craig became unpopular with senior police officers in Dallas when he testified before the Warren Commission. He insisted he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald get into the station wagon 15 minutes after the shooting. This was ignored by Earl Warren and his team because it showed that at least two people were involved in the assassination. Craig, unlike Seymour Weitzman, refused to change his mind about finding a Mauser rather than a Mannlicher-Carcano in the Texas Book Depository. Craig was fired from the police department in 1967 after he was found to have discussed his evidence with a journalist.

In 1967 Roger D. Craig went to New Orleans and was a prosecution witness at the trial of Clay Shaw. Later that year he was shot at while walking to a car park. The bullet only grazed his head. In 1973 a car forced Craig's car off a mountain road. He was badly injured but he survived the accident. In 1974 he surviving another shooting in Waxahachie, Texas. The following year he was seriously wounded when his car engine exploded. Craig told friends that the Mafia had decided to kill him. Craig was found dead from on 15th May, 1975. It was later decided he had died as a result of self-inflicted gunshot wounds.

When the Select Committee on Intelligence Activities and Select Committee on Assassinations began investigating Kennedy's death in the 1970s the deaths of potential witnesses increased dramatically. This included several criminals with links to the secret Executive Action plan to kill foreign political leaders. Those who died violent deaths during this period included Lucien Sarti (1972), Thomas Davis (1973), Dave Yarras (1974), Sam Giancana (1975), Jimmy Hoffa (1975), Johnny Roselli (1976), George De Mohrenschildt (1977), Charlie Nicoletti (1977) and Carlos Prio (1977).

William Sullivan was the main figure in the FBI involved in the Executive Action project. He was shot dead near his home in Sugar Hill, New Hampshire, on 9th November, 1977. Sullivan had been scheduled to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

Sullivan was one of six top FBI officials who died in a six month period in 1977. Others who were due to appear before the committee who died included Louis Nicholas, special assistant to J. Edgar Hoover and his liaison with the Warren Commission; Alan H. Belmont, special assistant to Hoover; James Cadigan, document expert with access to documents that related to death of John F. Kennedy; J. M. English, former head of FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory where Oswald's rifle and pistol were tested and Donald Kaylor, FBI fingerprint chemist who examined prints found at the assassination scene.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdeaths.htm

Mr Simkin, do you think it's possible Karyn Kupcinet was murdered in 1963 to hurt her father Irv Kupcinet? I have read her autopsy. All the damage was done to the left side of her neck. I believe she died as a result of a karate chop to the neck. She did not have foreknowledge of the assassination. I think she was killed to hurt her old man. I'd like your opinion.

Kathy

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Wim Dankbaar,

I'd like your opinion of the Karyn Kupcinet murder, Nov. 28, 1963. The motive: to get back at her father for something. (Also to steal methamphetamine.) She did not have foreknowledge of the assassination, but was killed to hurt Irv Kupcinet, in my opinion, Chicago columnist, who was looking into the Ruby connection to the assassination; and also to send a message to other journalists.

Do you think her death was related to the assassination?

Kathy

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  • 3 months later...

I’m looking for information on the suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy’s assassination (not including LBJ’s killing fields). If anyone can supply some I’d appreciate it. Maybe between all of us I'll fill in some gaps.

Specifically, I need:

-Exact dates people died (as you can see I only have the month, or year, for some people), and

-Their age when they died.

I’d also like to have, but it’s not essential:

-City/State they died in.

I’m really only interested in suspicious deaths; I’ve omitted ones attributed to natural causes; though if there’s any doubt I’ll declare it suspicious. Also, if I excluded a name please let me know. I realize this is a lot of material...

1963:

November 20 Rose Cheramie is found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana. As Lieutenant Francis Fruge of the Louisiana State Police

takes her to the state hospital Cheramie says that she was thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby & claimed that the men were

involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy soon in Dallas, & that Oswald had visited Ruby's night club. Later she tells the same story to doctors & nurses

who treat her. As she appeared to be under the influence of drugs her story was ignored.

December Jack Zangretti, who expressed foreknowledge of Ruby shooting Oswald, is found shot to death.

1964:

February Eddy Benavides, lookalike brother to Tippit shooting witness Domingo Benavides who testified shooter was not Oswald, dies of gunshot to head.

February Betty MacDonald, former Ruby employee who alibied Warren Reynolds shooting suspect, dies by hanging in Dallas jail.

March Bill Chesher, thought to have information linking Oswald & Ruby, dies of heart attack.

March Hank Killam, husband of Ruby employee with additional Oswald tie, dies of cut throat.

April 23 Bill Hunter, reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63, is shot to death by Dallas police man Creighton Wiggins hours after George

Senator's testimony that he could not recall meeting. Wiggins explanation that his gun fired when he dropped it was proven impossible in court

& it was decided that Hunter had been murdered. Wiggins finally claimed he was playing quick draw with his fellow officer Errol F. Greenleaf

testified he had his back turned during shooting. In January 1965, both were convicted of involuntary manslaughter but given probation.

May 8 Gary Underhill, former military intelligence employee/CIA asset who claimed CIA was involved in JFK murder, dies from gunshot to head.

A few days earlier he appeared at the home of friends, badly shaken, & charged that Kennedy was killed by a small group within

the CIA & that his own life was in danger.

May Hugh Ward, private investigator working with Guy Banister & David Ferrie, dies of plane crash in Mexico.

DeLesseps Morrison, New Orleans Mayor, is a passenger in Ward's plane & also dies.

June 6 Guy Banister, ex-FBI agent in New Orleans connected to Ferrie, CIA, Carlos Marcello & Oswald, dies of heart attack at age 64.

August Teresa Norton, Ruby employee, is fatally shot.

September 21 Jim Koethe, reporter in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63 & is writing book about Kennedy assassination, dies from karate chop to neck.

September 18 Charles Douglas Jackson, "Life" magazine senior Vice President who bought Zapruderfilm & locked it away, dies of unknown causes at age 62.

October 12 Mary Pinchot, JFK "special" friend whose diary was taken by CIA chief James Angleton after her death, is murdered at age 43.

1965:

January Paul Mandal, "Life" writer who told of JFK turning to rear when shot in throat, dies of cancer.

March Tom Howard, Ruby's 1st lawyer & in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63, dies of heart attack at age 48, 2 days after friends see him

acting strangely. No autopsy is performed.

May Maurice Gatlin, pilot for Guy Banister, dies in a fall.

August Mona B. Saenz, Texas Employment clerk who interviewed Oswald, dies after being hit by Dallas bus. Banister, dies in a fall.

September 4 Rose Cheramie, who knew of assassination in advance & told of riding to Dallas with Cubans, is found dead in the road near Big Sandy, TX.

November 8 Dorothy Kilgallen, columnist who had private interview with Ruby & pledged to "break the [JFK] case wide open," dies at age 52

of reported drug overdose.

November Margaret Smith, close friend of Kilgallen who may have had her interview notes for safekeeping, dies 2 days after her of unknown causes.

December William Whaley, cab driver who drove Oswald to Oak Cliff, dies in car crash becoming only Dallas taxi driver to die on duty.

1966:

^ Judge Joe Brown, who presided over Ruby's trial, dies of heart attack.

^ Karen "Little Lynn" Carlin, Ruby employee who last talked with Ruby before Oswald shooting, dies from gunshot.

^ Clarence Oliver, District Attorney Investigator who worked Ruby case, dies of unknown causes.

January 9 Earlene Roberts, Oswald's landlady who testified before WC that DPD car honked in apparent signal to Oswald after assassination,

dies of heart attack. DPD denied they had any cars in that area, & later subject Roberts to intensive harassment, including contacting all employers

& getting her fired from jobs including 3 housekeeping and nursing jobs in April, May and June of 1964 alone.

February Albert Bogard, car salesman who said Oswald test drove new car, dies at 41 years old; is ruled suicide.

June Captain Frank Martin, Dallas policeman who witnessed Oswald slaying, told WC "there's a lot to be said but probably

be better if I don't say it," dies of sudden cancer.

August 9 Lee Bowers Jr., who witnessed men behind picket fence on grassy knoll, dies in motor accident after likely drugging.

On 22nd November, 1963, Bowers was working in a high railroad tower overlooking Dealey Plaza & saw two men behind fence on grassy knoll who

"were the only two strangers in the area. The others were workers whom I knew." Bowers said the two men were there while the shots were fired,

accompanied by "a flash of light or smoke." Bowers received death threats after interviews by WC & journalist Mark Lane.

Witnesses of crash say he was driven off road by black car. He survived for 4 hours & told ambulance crew he felt he had been drugged when he

stopped for coffee in Midlothian, TX.

September Marilyn "Delila Walle, Ruby dancer, dies of gunshot by husband of 1 month.

October 29 Lt. William Pitzer, Chief of the Educational Television Division of Bethesda Naval Medical School, who likely photographed JFK autopsy via

closed-circuit television dies of gunshot. A few days after autopsy colleague Dennis D. David found Pitzer working on photos of Kennedy autopsy & noted

entry wound in right temple with corresponding exit wound in the lower rear of skull. Prior to scheduled retirement after 28 years in the Navy, to accept

TV station job likely intending to make a program about assassination, he was found dead at Bethesda under very suspicious circumstances.

In May 1995, ex-Special Forces Colonel Daniel Marvin claimed to have

been solicited by CIA agent to "terminate" William Pitzer, which he had refused.

November James Worrell Jr., who saw man flee rear of Texas School Book Depository, dies in car crash.

December Hank Suydam, "Life" magazine official in charge of JFK stories, dies of heart attack.

1967:

^ Leonard Pullin, ivilian Navy employee who helped film "Last Two Days" about assassination, dies in 1-car crash.

January Jack Ruby, Oswald's slayer, dies of lung cancer at age 56 after telling family he was injected with cancer cells.

February Harold Russell, who saw escape of Tippit killer, is killed by cop in bar brawl.

February 22 David Ferrie, acquaintance of Oswald, Garrison suspect & employee of Guy Banister, dies of brain hemorrhage at age 49

before Garrison can arrest & charge him.

February 22 Eladio Del Valle, anti-Castro Cuban associate of David Ferrie being sought by Garrison, dies of gunshot to heart hours after Ferrie dies.

July 21 Dr. Mary Sherman, Ferrie associate working on cancer research, is found dead of stabbing in her burned down laboratory in New Orleans.

July 23 Desmond FitzGerald, in charge of CIA's Cuban Task Force trying to assassinate Castro, dies of reported heart attack.

1968:

January A. D. Bowie, Assisstant Dallas District Attorney prosecuting Ruby, dies of cancer.

April Hiram Ingram, Dallas Deputy Sheriff, close friend to Roger Craig, dies of sudden cancer.

May Dr. Nicholas Chetta, New Orleans coroner who ruled on death of Ferrie, of heart attack.

August Philip Geraci, friend of Perry Russo, told of Oswald/Shaw conversation, dies of electrocution.

1969:

^ Charles Mentesana, who filmed rifle other than Mannlicher-Carcano being taken from Depository, dies of heart attack.

January Henry Delaune, brother-in-law to coroner Chetta, is murdered.

January 10 Eddy Raymond (Buddy) Walthers, Dallas Deputy Sheriff involved in Depository search, is shot dead by Walter Cherry after Sherrif Bill Decker

sent him to question the escaped convict & suspected murderer. On November 22, 1963 Walthers was first police officer to question James T. Tague,

who was cut by flying debris in Dealey Plaza from a gunshot into the curb. Soon after he was seen by witnesses with two men, possibly CIA or FBI agents,

in a sequence of photos showing 1 man picking something up out of the grass & then putting it in his pocket. Walthers initially claimed a bullet was found

but denied it later. Jim Garrison tried to persuade Walthers to testify at the Clay Shaw trial. In June, 1968, Walthers reported a bombing outside his home,

possibly an attempt to warn him no to talk to investigators such as Garrison about the assassination.

April John Crawford, close friend to Ruby & Wesley Frazier, who gave ride to Oswald on 11/22/63, dies in private plane crash.

April Rev. Clyde Johnson, scheduled to testify about Clay Shaw/Oswald connection, is fatally shot.

1970:

^ George McGann, underworld figure connected to Ruby friends, wife Beverly, took film in Dealey Plaza, is murdered.

January Darrell W. Garner, arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds & released after alibi from Betty MacDonald, dies of drug overdose.

December Salvatore Granello, mobster linked to Hoffa, Trafficante, & Castro assassination plots, is murdered.

1971:

^ James Plumeri, mobster tied to mob-CIA assassination plots, is murdered.

March Clayton Fowler, Ruby's chief defense attorney, dies of unknown causes.

May 25 Charles Cabell, CIA deputy director connected to anti-Castro Cubans, collapses & dies after physical.

April 26 Winston Scott, CIA's station chief in Mexico, dies of reported heart attack after telling CIA director Richard Helms he wrote book called

"It Came Too Late." CIA's James Angleton confiscates manuscript. Son Michael Scott is told by CIA sources his father didn't die from natural

causes. Son gets father's manuscript back from the CIA but 150 pages-everything after 1947-is removed on grounds of national security.

1972:

October 16 Hale Boggs, House Majority Leader, WC member who began to publicly express doubts about findings, disappears & is presumed

dead in Alaskan plane crash.

^ Lucien Sarti dies.

1974:

^ Dave Yaras, close friend to Hoffa & Jack Ruby, is murdered.

August 14 Clay Shaw, prime suspect in Garrison case & CIA contact with Ferrie & E. Howard Hunt dies at age 61 under mysterious circumstances.

1975:

May 15 Roger Craig, former Dallas police officer who insisted the rifle found in the Book Depository was a 7.65 Mauser & not a Mannlicher-Carcano, dies

of gunshot.

He became pariah in Dallas Police Department (DPD) when he testified before the WC that Oswald get into the station wagon 15 minutes after the

shooting with 2 others, & was fired from the police department in 1967 after he was found to have discussed his evidence with a journalist.

He was a prosecution witness at the trial of Clay Shaw in New Orleans where he was shot at but the bullet only grazed his head.

He also survived a 1973 incident wherein a car forced his car off a mountain road, another shooting in 1974, & explosion of his car in 1975.

June 19 Sam Giancana, Chicago Mafia boss slated to testify about CIA-mob death plots to Church Committee the next day, is murdered

with multiple gunshots to head, mouth, & neck at age 67.

July 30 Jimmy Hoffa, union official and mobster, disappears & is presumed dead at age 62.

December General Earle Wheeler, contact between JFK & CIA, dies of unknown causes.

1976:

^ Ralph Paul, Ruby's business partner connected with crime figures, dies of heart attack.

April James Chaney, Dallas motorcycle officer riding to JFK's right rear who said JFK "struck in the face" with bullet, dies of heart attack.

April Dr. Charles Gregory, Governor John Connally's physician, dies of heart attack.

June William Harvey, CIA coordinator for CIA-mob assassination plans against Castro, dies of reported complications from heart surgery.

August 7 John Roselli, mobster who testified to Senate Committee & was to appear again, is found dismembered & stuffed in metal drum at age 71.

1977:

January William Pawley, former Brazilian Ambassador connected to Anti-Castro Cubans & crime figures dies by shotgun before his testimony before the HSCA.

March 29 George DeMohrenschildt, close friend to Oswald, CIA contract agent dies at age 66 of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

March Carlos Prio Soccaras, former Cuban President, money man for anti-Castro Cubans dies of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

March 29 Charles Nicoletti, a mobster connected with the CIA-Mafia assassination plots, dies at age 61 of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

May Lou Staples, Dallas radio Talk Show host who told friends he would break assassination case, dies of gunshot to head.

June Louis Nicholas, former No. 3 man in FBI, worked on JFK investigation, dies of heart attack before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August Alan Belmont, FBI official who testified to WC, dies after "long illness" before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August James Cadigan, FBI document expert who testified to WC, dies in home fall before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August Joseph C. Ayres, chief steward on JFK's Air Force One, dies in shooting accident.

August 1 Francis G. Powers, U-2 pilot downed over Russia in 1960, dies in helicopter crash at age 48 after "running out of fuel."

October Donald Kaylor, FBI fingerprint expert who examined prints found at the assassination scene, dies of heart attack before scheduled HSCA testimony.

October J.M. English, former head of FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory where Oswald's rifle & pistol were tested, dies of heart attack before his

scheduled HSCA testimony.

November 9 William Sullivan, former No. 3 man in FBI, headed Division 5 counter-espionage & domestic intelligence, dies at age 65 in hunting accident

shortly after his preliminary meeting with HSCA.

1978:

May 8 David Morales, CIA agent to claimed to have helped murder President Kennedy, declaring to people "well, we took care of that son-of-a-bitch" & Bobby

Kennedy dies under mysterious circumstances at age 53, after telling friends he was afraid of his "own people," & before his testimony before the HSCA.

September 26 John Paisley, Deputy Director of Office of Strategic Research, is found dead in MD's Patuxent River attached to diving weights & shot in head.

Police investigators described it as "an execution-type murder." He was "about to blow the whistle" on JFK murder to HSCA according to

journalist Victor Marchetti.

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Setting update flag.

_______________________________

Flag setting update.

And yes, oh, uh Mr. Simkin, would you please elaborate on what you said in an earlier post about LBJ's blackmailing of JFK to get him to appoint Connally Secretary of the Navy? Fascinating stuff I'm sure and and believe it or not, I totally believe it. Would love to read about it, though, so it could rise above blind belief on my part if you know what I mean. Although I'm sure it's probably already been discussed in great length on this forum, I have neither the time nor the patience to try to find the pertinent post (not to mention thread) by using the rather "lousy" search-engine with which we are stuck here. Shall I type in "Connally" or "blackmail" or "JFK" or "Connally blackmailed JFK" or "TFX-111" or exactly what? LOL Of course, I don't really expect you to respond to this post of mine. After all, you very rarely do, busy man that you undoubtedly are....

Sincerely,

--Thomas

P.S. Funny thing is, I can totally believe that LBJ (and JEH for that matter) blackmailed the $#!@ out of JFK (and his bro). I just want to be as well informed as you are.... Seriously. Thank you. Your fabian socialist disciple-- T.G.

P.P.S. How's West Ham doing? Seriously.

_______________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Setting update flag.

_______________________________

Flag setting update.

And yes, oh, uh Mr. Simkin, would you please elaborate on what you said in an earlier post about LBJ's blackmailing of JFK to get him to appoint Connally Secretary of the Navy? Fascinating stuff I'm sure and and believe it or not, I totally believe it. Would love to read about it, though, so it could rise above blind belief on my part if you know what I mean. Although I'm sure it's probably already been discussed in great length on this forum, I have neither the time nor the patience to try to find the pertinent post (not to mention thread) by using the rather "lousy" search-engine with which we are stuck here. Shall I type in "Connally" or "blackmail" or "JFK" or "Connally blackmailed JFK" or "TFX-111" or exactly what? LOL Of course, I don't really expect you to respond to this post of mine. After all, you very rarely do, busy man that you undoubtedly are....

Sincerely,

--Thomas

P.S. Funny thing is, I can totally believe that LBJ (and JEH for that matter) blackmailed the $#!@ out of JFK (and his bro). I just want to be as well informed as you are.... Seriously. Thank you. Your fabian socialist disciple-- T.G.

P.P.S. How's West Ham doing? Seriously.

_______________________________

It is a horrible search engine.

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Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

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Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

Thank you Kathy.

I left that one out 'cause I really don't know what to make of it.

Did the telephone operator tell Penn Jones about the call?

How would the operator know who the caller was?

Did Jones say how he investigated the story?

It just sounds a little iffy.

Does anyone else have any insight into whether or not the Karyn Kupcinet episode actually happened?

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Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

Thank you Kathy.

I left that one out 'cause I really don't know what to make of it.

Did the telephone operator tell Penn Jones about the call?

How would the operator know who the caller was?

Did Jones say how he investigated the story?

It just sounds a little iffy.

Does anyone else have any insight into whether or not the Karyn Kupcinet episode actually happened?

She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died.

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together; and 100 methamphetamines missing?

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis.

And the last alternative: maybe a crazy fan was stalking her. Maybe someone who lived in the complex (like David Lange) got into her apartment and raped and killed her. I say rape because of the leukerhea found inside her. "Copious" is the word the coronor used. So did she have a bad yeast infection or was it semen? They couldn't tell. They didn't have the technology they do today.

About the Oxnard call, the operators listened in to this hysterical woman, who was saying, "They're going to kill the President." They called over the supervisor, Ray Sheehan. He heard it too. Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot; and Sheehan called the FBI and the story got into the papers the next day.

About the identity of the caller, Penn Jones Jr thought it was Karyn Kupcinet. Why, I don't know. Maybe he was going on instinct. But I don't believe it. On the evening when Kennedy died, Andrew Prine took Karyn and another couple to Palm Springs for the weekend.

I've never read Penn Jones' books, but maybe he took a leap of faith.

Kathy

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'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

*********************************************************

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

John Simkin

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Find Member's Posts Jan 19 2006, 08:38 AM Post #47

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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

=====================================================

It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

==================================================

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

"In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way."

What does this information have to do with furthering the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

"I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot."

I bet Kupcinet really loved your take on this.

On the day, who was shot? JFK or RFK.

"Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture."

To be sure.

"She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died."

Pure speculation

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together;and 100 methamphetamines missing?

You're grasping at straws.

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis."

So what? Who cares? And, how do you expect you're going to look when you're 71. His career was most likely ruined from being associated with this whole bloody mess. You sound almost ecstatic. Karyn and her old man are probably rolling over in their graves with the way you've been ragging her.

Don't you have anything positive or nice to say about someone who's not here to defend themselves? It's as if you glory in airing their dirty laundry, and any little insignificant tidbit of slander you may be able to glean from their "supposedly" sordid pasts. What purpose does it serve? To make you feel better about yourself?

Was Walter Winchell your idol, or your mentor? Because you sure sound like a cheap imitation of him, Ms. Cloak of Darkness blogspot.com. You sure get off on throwing your website around here, for someone who can't seem to get their story straight.

And, while it's still fresh in my mind, DO NOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CONTACT ME AGAIN VIA MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Especially, since I haven't set out to attack you in any recent memory that I can recall.

My apologies to John Geraghty, Kathy Beckett, Evan Marshall, Simkin, Walker, et. al.

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