Dealy Plaza Survey Data

[Thomas H. Purvis]

But does your plat have the ELEVATION TABLE on the plat

that was obtained by Jim Marrs from Chester Breneman

in the 70s?

Jack

This is a copy of the survey data block found on the original WC Survey. It has nothing to do with the Secret Service Survey of 12/5/63.

The "yellow" nature of this appears to be due to the "age" process of the paper on which it was copied some years ago.

None of this information began to appear in the public domain until AFTER such time as I had mailed copies of it to Chuck MARLER and others.

Which of course is irrelevant, as I knew at the time that I allowed it out that persons would not be able to just "sit" on it.

After Chuck allowed to be published in the "ASSASSINATION SCIENCE" book, that information which I had provided to him, then it became obvious that I had better start digging out my old stuff.

Thereafter, I allowed JFK Lancer to publish the entire sub-chapter, written long ago, on the "altered evidence" as well as the "vehicle speed analysis".

Attached is a copy of the "comparison" data which was published in JFK Lancer and which shows a copy of the actual WC survey plat data block as well as the altered data block which was admitted into evidence separtely.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In addition to having provided Chuck Marler ( as well as others) with copies of the survey data block, as copied directly from the full size survey plat in my possession, I also provided Chuck with other information relative to how the altered survey data block was admitted into evidence.

If you will recall, Chuck also fully addressed this in his portion of "ASSASSINATION SCIENCE".

Rest assured, Mr. West was not aware of this little deviousness until such time as I personally showed it to him at his home in Dallas.

It would re remiss of me to not also point out that I also provided Mr. Marler with a copy of the "Vehicle Speed Analysis" chart which I had long ago done.

And, as you will also recall, Chuck also made reference to this in the "ASSASSINATION SCIENCE" portion of his write up.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Since we have now managed to meander back to the "altered" survey data as well as where the limo actually was, this may be of interest as it also represents items which I never fully shared.

When one "lifts" the scaled limo from the true position at Z210 when the left front bumper is in direct alignment with the tree in the background, from the Z-line of sight, one finds NOT Z-210, but instead finds Z-208 (marginally past it)

Primarily, this little manipulation of the facts came about as an end result of the road sign having been moved between the time of the US Secret Service survey & re-enactment, and the WC games.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

a minor point: these scp's in turn are presumably related to even more permanent fixed survey point(s)established for example at town founding perhaps. Whatever, the scp's can be relocated from other (older) points?

Vertical/elevation control was not established until the SS Survey Work of December, 1963.

At this time, Mr. West/the Survey Crew found:

" ELEV. 433.97 B. M. Brass MKR in NW Cor County Ct. Hs "

Which of course means that they found a Brass Monument/Marker in which the true elevation was stamped, and that this marker was located at the NorthWest corner of the County Court House.

Thereafter, vertical control was carried/established in the Dealy Plaza/assassination area.

The above inform was extracted from a page of the survey notes of Mr. West.

[John Dolva]

a minor point: these scp's in turn are presumably related to even more permanent fixed survey point(s)established for example at town founding perhaps. Whatever, the scp's can be relocated from other (older) points?

Vertical/elevation control was not established until the SS Survey Work of December, 1963.

At this time, Mr. West/the Survey Crew found:

" ELEV. 433.97 B. M. Brass MKR in NW Cor County Ct. Hs "

Which of course means that they found a Brass Monument/Marker in which the true elevation was stamped, and that this marker was located at the NorthWest corner of the County Court House.

Thereafter, vertical control was carried/established in the Dealy Plaza/assassination area.

The above inform was extracted from a page of the survey notes of Mr. West.

That's the one.

Good to know, Tom.

These markers would be illegal to damage/move and if they were, they in turn relate to others. So we have a set of data (survey) that one can regard with confidence, and in turn, should one wish to do so, should the need arise, very much of the evidence can, in various ways, be verified. In a sense, the crime scene exists, as it was, even if only as a string of code in computers. It also means that a 'reconstruction' can be widened to include areas/locations not surveyed at that time.

[Jack White]

a minor point: these scp's in turn are presumably related to even more permanent fixed survey point(s)established for example at town founding perhaps. Whatever, the scp's can be relocated from other (older) points?

Vertical/elevation control was not established until the SS Survey Work of December, 1963.

At this time, Mr. West/the Survey Crew found:

" ELEV. 433.97 B. M. Brass MKR in NW Cor County Ct. Hs "

Which of course means that they found a Brass Monument/Marker in which the true elevation was stamped, and that this marker was located at the NorthWest corner of the County Court House.

Thereafter, vertical control was carried/established in the Dealy Plaza/assassination area.

The above inform was extracted from a page of the survey notes of Mr. West.

As a matter of definition, technically the BRASS MARKER is known as a BENCHMARK.

They are a brass marker set in concrete in a strategic location, giving elevation,

lattitude and longitude. All surveys are done from the nearest BENCHMARK, and

surveyors have lists of their locations. If you look down as you walk in most cities,

you will see the benchmarks imbedded in sidewalks at prominent locations, such

as a courthouse, a busy intersection.

Today, with GPS satellite positioning, benchmarks may not be as important. In our

neighborhood I have noted that surveyors increasingly use GPS and lasers

instead of "old fashioned" theodolites, tapes and rods.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Tom, this appears to be an error. Is it an error in plot or from the worksheet? Does it indicate anything about where in the history of survey drawing production this particular drawing fits? I have looked to crossreference to other posts but as the attachments are gone for now, I can't.

Could you also for a moment please repost the elevation showing Zapruder on the pedestal?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, this appears to be an error. Is it an error in plot or from the worksheet? Does it indicate anything about where in the history of survey drawing production this particular drawing fits? I have looked to crossreference to other posts but as the attachments are gone for now, I can't.

Could you also for a moment please repost the elevation showing Zapruder on the pedestal?

1. It is a "drafting" error in which the person responsible for having drawn the survey block made a mistake.

I posted on this earlier, as it was found when I, long ago, drew in the line imminating from the sixth floor window and ending at the unspecified (not marked) position on Elm St. which is almost at the incorrect (426) elevation contour.

The WC plat is the only one which contains this error and the separate drawings for ever position taken/surveyed in on Elm St. verify this, as well as an additional control station which was established at elevation 423.7 during the US Secret Service suvey work.

2. The top of the concrete pedestal on which Mr. Zapruder stood was at an elevation of 430.8.

3. From my discussions with Mrs. Abraham Zapruder, as well as the son, Henry Zapruder, I was informed that Mr. Zapruder stood 5' 10'' to 5' 11' Tall.

If recalled correctly, (without hunting for all of the notes) I utilized the lower of 5' 10" without benefit of shoes, in my determination of the actual/approximate height of the camera.

Since this information has been kept relatively "close", there has never been an additional "double check" of the camera elevation as presented.

See what you come up with and then we will cross-check for accuracy.

Since we have now managed to meander back to the "altered" survey data as well as where the limo actually was, this may be of interest as it also represents items which I never fully shared.

When one "lifts" the scaled limo from the true position at Z210 when the left front bumper is in direct alignment with the tree in the background, from the Z-line of sight, one finds NOT Z-210, but instead finds Z-208 (marginally past it)

Primarily, this little manipulation of the facts came about as an end result of the road sign having been moved between the time of the US Secret Service survey & re-enactment, and the WC games.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Although somewhat "ahead" of schedule, one may find it beneficial to see exactly where the Elevation "423.07" came from.

This work is of course from the relatively accurate survey, survey plat, and assassination re-enactment as completed for the US Secret Service.

As previously stated, ONLY the WC survey plat is on a scale of 1-inch = 10 feet.

All other survey plats were on a 1-inch = 20 feet scale.

The Time/Life Survey plat of 11/26/63, utilized "K" & "K1" as representation of impact points to JFK.

Thereafter, the US Secret Service as well as the separate "re-work" done for the FBI utilized "#1", "#2", etc to represent shot impact locations.

Additionally, ONLY the WC Survey Plat utilized Z-frame numbers in lieu of shot#'s for platted positions down the center of Elm St.

Therefore, any portion of a survey plat which demonstrates Z-frame numbers as a portion of the work, is absolutely from the WC Survey Plat.

This, the Secret Service work of December 2/3/4/& 5th also established the necessary controls and elevations which would be required to re-construct Dealy Plaza to 11/22/63 elevations and positions.

There are "hidden" nails/pins driven into the ground, as well as those nails driven into the asphalt of Elm St. (temporary control stations) located throughout a variety of areas.

And, as any good surveyor knows, TREES are a common source of pinpoint location for future reference.

Nevertheless, the previously given elevation "423.07" got it's Nail/TBM (Temporary BenchMark) driven into Elm St. due to the fact that it was where the US Secret Service established that JFK was located at impact of the first shot.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Although somewhat "ahead" of schedule, one may find it beneficial to see exactly where the Elevation "423.07" came from.

This work is of course from the relatively accurate survey, survey plat, and assassination re-enactment as completed for the US Secret Service.

As previously stated, ONLY the WC survey plat is on a scale of 1-inch = 10 feet.

All other survey plats were on a 1-inch = 20 feet scale.

The Time/Life Survey plat of 11/26/63, utilized "K" & "K1" as representation of impact points to JFK.

Thereafter, the US Secret Service as well as the separate "re-work" done for the FBI utilized "#1", "#2", etc to represent shot impact locations.

Additionally, ONLY the WC Survey Plat utilized Z-frame numbers in lieu of shot#'s for platted positions down the center of Elm St.

Therefore, any portion of a survey plat which demonstrates Z-frame numbers as a portion of the work, is absolutely from the WC Survey Plat.

This, the Secret Service work of December 2/3/4/& 5th also established the necessary controls and elevations which would be required to re-construct Dealy Plaza to 11/22/63 elevations and positions.

There are "hidden" nails/pins driven into the ground, as well as those nails driven into the asphalt of Elm St. (temporary control stations) located throughout a variety of areas.

And, as any good surveyor knows, TREES are a common source of pinpoint location for future reference.

Nevertheless, the previously given elevation "423.07" got it's Nail/TBM (Temporary BenchMark) driven into Elm St. due to the fact that it was where the US Secret Service established that JFK was located at impact of the first shot.

It would appear that Ole "Purvert/aka Captain Pervert" kind of likes to do his "homework" prior to having to take the test.

Are we having fun yet?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, this appears to be an error. Is it an error in plot or from the worksheet? Does it indicate anything about where in the history of survey drawing production this particular drawing fits? I have looked to crossreference to other posts but as the attachments are gone for now, I can't.

Could you also for a moment please repost the elevation showing Zapruder on the pedestal?

1. It is a "drafting" error in which the person responsible for having drawn the survey block made a mistake.

I posted on this earlier, as it was found when I, long ago, drew in the line imminating from the sixth floor window and ending at the unspecified (not marked) position on Elm St. which is almost at the incorrect (426) elevation contour.

The WC plat is the only one which contains this error and the separate drawings for ever position taken/surveyed in on Elm St. verify this, as well as an additional control station which was established at elevation 423.7 during the US Secret Service suvey work.

2. The top of the concrete pedestal on which Mr. Zapruder stood was at an elevation of 430.8.

3. From my discussions with Mrs. Abraham Zapruder, as well as the son, Henry Zapruder, I was informed that Mr. Zapruder stood 5' 10'' to 5' 11' Tall.

If recalled correctly, (without hunting for all of the notes) I utilized the lower of 5' 10" without benefit of shoes, in my determination of the actual/approximate height of the camera.

Since this information has been kept relatively "close", there has never been an additional "double check" of the camera elevation as presented.

See what you come up with and then we will cross-check for accuracy.

Since we have now managed to meander back to the "altered" survey data as well as where the limo actually was, this may be of interest as it also represents items which I never fully shared.

When one "lifts" the scaled limo from the true position at Z210 when the left front bumper is in direct alignment with the tree in the background, from the Z-line of sight, one finds NOT Z-210, but instead finds Z-208 (marginally past it)

Primarily, this little manipulation of the facts came about as an end result of the road sign having been moved between the time of the US Secret Service survey & re-enactment, and the WC games.

It would also be remiss on my part were I not to again point out the "fudge factor" of the Warren Commission's "ADJUSTED POSITION" method of positioning the JFK Stand-in and then pushing the vehicle slightly forward until the point on the back of JFK supposedly came into view.

If recalled, I, long ago "threw in" this lovely!

And, since both the "ADJUSTED POSITION" as well as the road sign replacement come into play in this (lets make 207/208 = Z-210) then perhaps "repetition" will jog a few memories.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[John Dolva]

Thank you very much for this, Tom.

(initial thought)

It's hard to be accurate. Considering a not upright posture, forward tilt of camera, location of film frame in camera, the film frame itself could be as much as 1 foot below 5' 10" height? Unlikely though, perhaps about 7"?

Perhaps an elevation of 435.85 + - .3 for frame in camera at this point? And this would progressively change in elevation as Zapruder pans west (and increase if panning east).

I wonder what errors did you factor in, and across the whole pan, how important would you consider them to be?

EDIT:: just noticed last post. will read.

Edited March 22, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, this appears to be an error. Is it an error in plot or from the worksheet? Does it indicate anything about where in the history of survey drawing production this particular drawing fits? I have looked to crossreference to other posts but as the attachments are gone for now, I can't.

Could you also for a moment please repost the elevation showing Zapruder on the pedestal?

John;

I have attached Mr. West handwritten notes for what was pointed out as being Z-207, (for survey data gathering).

This page of his notes plays a key significance in many items:

1. It should be noted that the surveyed in elevation on Elm St. for this is "423.75" as is indicated on the sloped line shown down below the slope distance/vertical angle notes.

2. Now, if one takes this elevation and thereafter compares it with the actual survey plat, the problem is obvious.

The position of Z-207 on the survey plat is only marginally past the street contour elevation of 423.5.

I might therefore add, that the TRUE position for Z207 must, as demonstrated on the vehicle/tree in backgound drawing,---"back" back up Elm St. a short distance in order to be placed at the correct position surveyed for it.

Again, this all has to do with the "Adjusted Position" garbage which the WC utilized.

I would have hoped that by now, someone would have caught what would appear to be an obvious error in my having stated that the first shot was fired in the Z-203 to Z-206 vicinity, while in fact the ending point of the line shown drawn which imminates from the sixth floor window of the TSDB and ends at a point just past the (erroneously plotted 426) elevation contour, obviously ends well prior to what would have been Z-206.

The simple answer being, WC platted Z-208 actually is much closer to the true frame#210 which we have been given. Therefore, if platted 208 is in reality visual Z-frame# 210, then obviousl, 208 must "back up".

Likewise, 207/etc; etc; etc; must also back up.

This application thereafter effectively places Z-207 at the approximate/close street elevation in which it correctly belongs, and thereafter would place Z-206 at a point between elevation 423.75 and the (erronously platted 426) true elevation 424 street contour elevation line.

The line drawn, which emminates from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, to end at the point located between true street elevation 423.75 and 426, can only be determined when one has the actual and true survey notes in hand, as well as a "cross-check" of the location of this position when directions and distances from established survey control points are platted (by myself) onto the WC survey plat.

This is why the ending point of the "imminating line" does not actually end at a point which is that close to the shown Z-207 position (and ultimately what one would assume to be Z-206) as platted on the WC survey plat.

"Bo Knows" why! And so does Tom, who drew in the lines!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The "New Math" program in which 207 or 208 can be 210.

"Mr. FRAZIER - On Commission Exhibit No. 892, also marked frame No. 207, the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the Presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree. I had the car stopped at that point so that this photograph could be made there.

On Commission Exhibit No. 893, also marked frame 210, we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the 10-inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the President's body. "

AKA

"Adjusted Position"

"Fudge Factor"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The "New Math" program in which 207 or 208 can be 210.

"Mr. FRAZIER - On Commission Exhibit No. 892, also marked frame No. 207, the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the Presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree. I had the car stopped at that point so that this photograph could be made there.

On Commission Exhibit No. 893, also marked frame 210, we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the 10-inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the President's body. "

AKA

"Adjusted Position"

"Fudge Factor"

In order to determine what would be the true position of JFK at the time that the first shot was fired, which plots/plats in the approximate vicinity of what would actually be Z-204/205, one would have to have in their possession the survey notes and data from the Time/Life survey work, which establishes SCP points, and thereafter gives directions and distances from these points, to this position on Elm St.

One would also have to know, as well as fully understand, the relationship of the "Adjusted Position" and how the WC manipulations of the facts, ultimately, "carried forward" erroneous information in order to place, during their re-enactment, Z-207/208 (actually it is Z208) to the position of what is in reality shown in the actual Z-film as being Z-210.

In addition to these items, the "Jiggle Analysis" (for those who wish to do the math) will demonstrate an approximate 5 to six frame delay from the time that a shot is fired, until sound of shot reaches Zapruder.

This can be checked out with the headshot impact at Z-313. Thereafter, at Z-318, through 329 & 320, one can observe a relatively distinctive 3-frame blurring of the film.

Z-210/Z-211/Z-212 also contain this virtually identical 3-frame blurring, and for those who have done all of their homework, they would also know that the WC conveniently neglected to provide us with these frames of the film.

Therefore, it one "backs up" five to six frames from the Z-210 blur, they arrive at a shot fired in the Z-204, to Z-204 time frame.

HOWEVER, one must also take into consideration bullet "Time-of-Flight" as a correlation of exposed frames of the Z-film, which is only approximately one single frame of the film.

Therefore, a shot fired at Z-312, impacts at Z-313, with the first "jiggle" beginning at Z-318.

With this, the determination that the first shot was made in the Z-203 to Z-206 timeframe, with the mid-point being approximately Z-204/205 being the point/position on Elm St. of JFK at the time that the first shot was fired.

It should also be noted, that when this, the "Jiggle Analsyis" is compared with the Time/Life position on Elm St. for JFK at the first shot fired, "K", that they correlate almost exactly in position.

Finally, one should note that the drawing on which someone has made notes purportedly written in 1978, contains ONLY two lines imminating from the TSDB.

The first being that line which terminates on a point on Elm St. which would be in the true/approximate position of Z- 204/205.

The second line ultimately terminates at the Z-313 position.

So, Where is the Third Shot?

The answer again is quite simple!

Until the past year, I have never informed anyone of the location of the third/last/final shot fired in the assassination. That being the one which impacted directly in front of Mr. James Altgens.

So, many persons over the years in the mid-1990's were given "pieces" of the puzzle.------Never allowed to see the "Big Picture" in what the puzzle actually looked like though.

This is why Chuck Marler could not explain the significance of the "Altered Survey Data" when he contributed this information to "ASSASSINATION SCIENCE", as he did not know or understand what it was all relative too in relationship to the "Adjusted Position".

Just as they (any who received the information) were not told the reasoning as to why the WC went through this circular logic re-enactment of the assassination.