Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgment

[Len Colby]

This demonstrates, as I wrote in FINAL JUDGMENT (after having been subjected to a similar barrage), that people use the Holocaust to deflect attention from what appears in FINAL JUDGMENT.

I read those 2 chapters and youur case seems vary tenuous, people believed by some to have been involved in the assassination may have has some sort of connection to the Mossad. Your research was a limited number of secondary sources. Isn't it possible that you prefer that people talk about the Holocaust rather than the paltry evidence in your book?

Actually, what bothers people most about FINAL JUDGMENT is not perhaps even the point that the book alleges Mossad involvement in the JFK conspiracy.

What bothers people is the very clearly documented point that John F. kennedy was trying to stop Israel from building the nuclear bomb and also trying to build bridges to the Arab world, particularly the dynamic leader, Gamal Nasser, and that, upon JFK's death, the entire policy was redirected, almost instantaneously, by the corrupt and venal Lyndon B. Johnson.

JFK was going to make a deal with Nasser? Could be but it sounds very unlikely to say the least!! Avram Cohen's book didn't stir up any near as much controversy, doesn't this undermine your point?

When Americans hear that one of their most beloved Presidents, John F. Kennedy, was--shall we say--less than friendly to Israel's demands, it gives them a new perspective on the whole issue of U.S. relations with Israel.

Less than friendly or resistant to them developing atomic weapons?

I really do find the Holocaust boring and I don't intend to sit here and wade through hysteria about the Holocaust and what I think about it.

I'm thrilled that so many people are obsessed with the deaths of Six Million Jews (maybe eleven million or more) and want to yak about it endlessly.

It was only Jews after all! May be if it was 6 million dogs you'd be more concerned. To bad he didn't finish the job! But wait you just said it was all a lie. Don't forget that your hero Hitler was also responsible for the deaths of several million non-Jews in the death camps including about 1 million Roma (Gypsies)

I hope everybody will feel "more comfortable" with my absence from this forum.

I certainly will.

I really doubt you'll be missed everyone here is a member of the "Israel lobby" or under it's sway

In the meantime, FINAL JUDGMENT isn't going to go away and that's what scares the Hell out of so many people on this forum.

They may not believe it---but a lot of people do.

And that's the problem.

My impression is that outside a circle of people who are already anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (no not the same thing) your book doesn't have much of an audience. You're preaching to the converted.

Adios!

I'm off to Spain to lecture about FINAL JUDGMENT and then on to Malaysia.

Unfortunately thier is a worldwide market for hate

[Len Colby]

Andy Walker endorses the work of Deborah Lipstadt, a squalid racist who says that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

I call upon all of the good anti-racists on this forum to denounce Deborah Lipstadt for her foul racist position that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

Then when Deborah Lipstadt finally rejects this hate-filled supremacist point of view (something spawned from the old lie that God places one group of people above another, that "Chosen People" nonsense), maybe we can start believing EVERYTHING she says about "the Holocaust Deniers."

Andy Walker: do you endorse Deborah Lipstadt's racist view that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

Give us your answer.

Where exactly did you "endorse(s) the work of Deborah Lipstadt" Andy? Not on this forum apperently.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ghlite=lipstadt

I am not familiar with Lipstadt's work but such a view is not necessarily based on the view that one ethnic group is better than another but considered important for cultural survival. Similar views are or were held by most ethnic groups. A Catholic friend of mine's parents were unhappy because she married a Protestant but a few years later they were accepting when her younger brother married a Jewess.

I have a lot of contact with Native Brazilians, many of them don't allow marriage to members of other tribes or worse yet to "Brancos" ("Whites" a generic expression that applies to non-Natives independent of skin color) are they racists too?

Piper - A confessed anti-Semite who works for Willis Carto (who said he considered "hating Niggers" normal) is hardly one to lecture someone else about racism.

[Guest]

Piper - A confessed anti-Semite who works for Willis Carto (who said he considered "hating Niggers" normal) is hardly one to lecture someone else about racism.

Quite so.

As for Deborah Lipstadt I have no hesitation in commending her excellent work - see links which follow

http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/

http://www.hdot.org/nsindex.html

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/lipstadt-deborah/

[Owen Parsons]

Andy Walker endorses the work of Deborah Lipstadt, a squalid racist who says that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

I call upon all of the good anti-racists on this forum to denounce Deborah Lipstadt for her foul racist position that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

Then when Deborah Lipstadt finally rejects this hate-filled supremacist point of view (something spawned from the old lie that God places one group of people above another, that "Chosen People" nonsense), maybe we can start believing EVERYTHING she says about "the Holocaust Deniers."

Andy Walker: do you endorse Deborah Lipstadt's racist view that Jews should not marry non-Jews.

Give us your answer.

You do realize that the prohibition against intermarriage has to to do with religion and not race, right? Anyone of any ethnicity can become a Jew. Ditto for the concept of "chosen people."

The fact that most religious Jews are also of the Jewish ethnicity is beside the point.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[Pat Speer]

Thanks, Len. You started debating the man point by point and he folded up his tent. Which is what I thought would happen...

He reminds me of the school friend mentioned in an earlier post. Rather than feeling compassion for an individual or group of people that have been kicked around, his attitude has become HOW DARE THEY EXPECT COMPASSION from ME? I'm the victim here! They say that 6 million died! Well, maybe there were only 3 million! The liars! (And then finally), I'm just bored with all this talk of how I should feel sorry for them. Screw them! When are they gonna feel sorry for me? People accuse me of being a bad man! I've been victimized by them! Horrors! Horrors! Did you see that? He gave me a dirty look!

Maybe Mr. Piper is not a holocaust denier; he seems to accept at least part of the history. But he is certainly suffering from holocaust envy, which is why he identifies with his 1/8 or 1/16 Native American ancestry, and why he is for reparations of the black community. He wants the wrongs to be righted, for everyone but the Jews, because... because... they're hogging up all the attention! WHAAA!!

My two cents of dimestore psychology available for free via the internet.

[Michael Collins Piper]

Sorry, Pat, I folded up the tent before Len Colby posted anything up here about anything I had actually written about the JFK assassination. (But I did get a kick out of your dime-store psychology).

I've gone through this all before.

If anyone is even vaguely interested in what I have written previously, they can go to Google groups.

Or I'll send them a free copy of the book if they simply write me at piperm2@lycos.com and ask.

The last time I was supposed to speak at a collegiate forum (where people had the freedom to challenge me publicly) the Anti-Defamation League prevented the seminar from happening and Debra Conway of JFK Lancer vowed to picket me, rather than debate me. But the school newspaper staff invited me to come to their office and we sat down and had a civil discussion about THE JFK ASSASSINATION for several hours and one of their questions even led me to making a significant change in the book.

I'm not afraid of debating or I wouldn't have come up here on this forum in the first place.

it's just that I'm a little tired of hearing about the Holocaust.

It's over. Boring.

Len Colby has a hysterical ethnic bias, which I can accept. Tim Gratz is just --- well, he needs a forum and he's got it.

But I've got a book ---- and he doesn't. So he's his own little star on the forum, God bless him!

By the way, one copy of the third edition of FINAL JUDGMENT was passed through the hands of roughly 50 doctors, nurses and medical technicians in one small (but well known) in America. I suppose they are all hard-core Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, blah blah blah.

And so it goes . . .

Say what you will . . . I've got a 768-page book that continues to sell and lots of people believe it---including many people not predisposed to the theory --- and that's what is so troubling to so many people.

One FINAL thought: where are all you humanitarians and civil rights activists when it comes to the Palestinians?

You guys are preaching that Ariel Sharon, a butchering murdering criminal, is a man of peace.

Well, you guys will get your war against Iran and all hell is gonna break loose---courtesy of Israel and its friends in America.

God save us.

[Guest]

Len Colby has a hysterical ethnic bias

I think even "dime store psychologists" would recognise that as projection

(anyway shouldn't it be 'an hysterical ethnic bias'?)

But I've got a book ---- and he doesn't

Oh good Lord surely it is "I've written a book and he hasn't"

I find it quite staggering that someone who is apparently quite so hopelessly illiterate should have read a book never mind have written one.

[Len Colby]

Sorry, Pat, I folded up the tent before Len Colby posted anything up here about anything I had actually written about the JFK assassination. (But I did get a kick out of your dime-store psychology).

I've gone through this all before.

If anyone is even vaguely interested in what I have written previously, they can go to Google groups.

Or I'll send them a free copy of the book if they simply write me at piperm2@lycos.com and ask.

The last time I was supposed to speak at a collegiate forum (where people had the freedom to challenge me publicly) the Anti-Defamation League prevented the seminar from happening and Debra Conway of JFK Lancer vowed to picket me, rather than debate me. But the school newspaper staff invited me to come to their office and we sat down and had a civil discussion about THE JFK ASSASSINATION for several hours and one of their questions even led me to making a significant change in the book.

I'm not afraid of debating or I wouldn't have come up here on this forum in the first place.

it's just that I'm a little tired of hearing about the Holocaust.

It's over. Boring.

Len Colby has a hysterical ethnic bias, which I can accept. Tim Gratz is just --- well, he needs a forum and he's got it.

But I've got a book ---- and he doesn't. So he's his own little star on the forum, God bless him!

By the way, one copy of the third edition of FINAL JUDGMENT was passed through the hands of roughly 50 doctors, nurses and medical technicians in one small (but well known) in America. I suppose they are all hard-core Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, blah blah blah.

And so it goes . . .

Say what you will . . . I've got a 768-page book that continues to sell and lots of people believe it---including many people not predisposed to the theory --- and that's what is so troubling to so many people.

One FINAL thought: where are all you humanitarians and civil rights activists when it comes to the Palestinians?

You guys are preaching that Ariel Sharon, a butchering murdering criminal, is a man of peace.

Well, you guys will get your war against Iran and all hell is gonna break loose---courtesy of Israel and its friends in America.

God save us.

God save us indeed from your ilk. Didn't you promise to leave and never return?

Who said anything about Sharon all that you brought here was strawman arguments, hate and libelous charges. It makes sense you would work for Carto.

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You have now attacked the way I run this Forum on several different threads. I suggest that you start a new thread on the subject. (I will eventually be deleting on the irrelevant posts on this thread). Better still, why don't you go away and establish your own Forum. Then you can run it in the way you like best. That will include only allowing people to join who agree with your views. Maybe you could form it with Tim Gratz. I am sure you would have great fun together.

John – I think we agree that in a democratic society all citizens have the right to freely air their concerns about their government. By extension in a democratic Internet forum don't the members have the right to raise their voice when they feel the moderator is wrong? I think the word "attacked" is too strong to describe the points I've raised which I think were legitimate. You have yet to reply to them. I may have over reacted a bit in the Piper threads but if I am 'touchy' about the Holocaust I think it's for understandable reasons .

You suggested that I start a new forum with Tim, "that will include only allowing people to join who agree with your views". Let's not forget that I defended Piper's right to join and that John Dolva joined Tim in calling for his exclusion and that Andy seemed very uncomfortable with the idea of him becoming a member.

If I have raised questions about the way it is run that is because I very much value this forum and my participation in it. I have dropped out of other forums because I didn't feel they were worth my time - because the level of discourse was low. I wish to remain a member of this forum in good standing but I won't refrain from making comments when I think some one even you or Andy are wrong.

I also appreciate that you wear two hats, one as moderator who has to run this forum fairly and the other as other as a member with very strong convictions and that this is not always an easy balancing act. John Dolva said on the other thread he would be a very good forum moderator because as I understood it he would get too emotional. I don't think I would be a good moderator for the same reason, I don't know how impartial I could be. You do a very good job here in that regard, far better than I could do. But as I said before if I think you are wrong I won't hesitate from saying something if I think you are wrong.

Peace,

Len

Edited February 17, 2006 by Len Colby

[Pat Speer]

Say what you will . . . I've got a 768-page book that continues to sell and lots of people believe it---including many people not predisposed to the theory --- and that's what is so troubling to so many people.

One FINAL thought: where are all you humanitarians and civil rights activists when it comes to the Palestinians?

You guys are preaching that Ariel Sharon, a butchering murdering criminal, is a man of peace.

Well, you guys will get your war against Iran and all hell is gonna break loose---courtesy of Israel and its friends in America.

God save us.

Oh come on, Michael. A number of us here are very open to your ideas about Mossad and/or Jewish Syndicate involvement in the Kennedy assassination. It's just that almost every one of your posts makes some reference to the lies of Israel and the manipulation of the media, blah blah blah. Talk about boring.

FWIW I agree with you about Sharon. I remember when he was that pig that allowed the slaughter of all those civilians in Lebanon. But now, not unlike the career trajectory of Arafat, everyone around him has drifted right and he has become a moderate. Yes, I agree. That's pretty scary. An ex-girlfriend who lived in Israel for years returned two years ago and told me that we needed to nuke Iran asap before they got the bomb. Because as soon as they got the bomb they planned on using it even if it meant the U.S. and/or Israel would wipe them off the face of the Earth. Because they hated the Jews that much.. Because (in the minds of Israelis) Iranians go to sleep at night not praying for the protection of their families but praying for the death of Israel. This is how Israelis feel... that everyone is out to get them... Maybe you should become an Israeli; you already think like one.

BTW Debra Conway is one of the nicest women I've ever met. If you can't get along with her then you probably need to be potty-trained.

P.S. Do you have a chapter on the medical or ballistic ievidence? If so, I'm interested in reading it.

[Owen Parsons]

FWIW I agree with you about Sharon. I remember when he was that pig that allowed the slaughter of all those civilians in Lebanon. But now, not unlike the career trajectory of Arafat, everyone around him has drifted right and he has become a moderate. Yes, I agree. That's pretty scary. An ex-girlfriend who lived in Israel for years returned two years ago and told me that we needed to nuke Iran asap before they got the bomb. Because as soon as they got the bomb they planned on using it even if it meant the U.S. and/or Israel would wipe them off the face of the Earth. Because they hated the Jews that much.. Because (in the minds of Israelis) Iranians go to sleep at night not praying for the protection of their families but praying for the death of Israel. This is how Israelis feel... that everyone is out to get them... Maybe you should become an Israeli; you already think like one.

There is really no evidence that Sharon had knowledge of the massacre (which was, I think the unfamiliar reader should know, carried out by the Phalangists, not the Israelis, something that is usually not brought up in the soundbites) until too late, and the intelligence received was not sufficient*, but certainly he deserves criticism for his lack of foresight in this situation, if nothing else. It should also be noted that the IDF rejected requests from the Phalangists, before they entered the refugee camps, for artillery and tanks. Why? So as to prevent injury to civillians.

Also, I don't think it serves the interests of truth to use the opinions of an ex-girlfriend as representative of all Israelis, as you do ("...in the minds of Israelis" "This is how Israelis feel" etc. etc.). But even if such sweeping statements were true, who can blame them for being paranoid? Just take a look at the history of modern Israel.

* From the Kahan Commission: "We do not believe that responsibility is to be imputed to the Defense Minister for not ordering the removal of the Phalangists from the camps when the first reports reached him about the acts of killing being committed there. As was detailed above, such reports initially reached the Defense Minister on Friday evening; but at the same time, he had heard from the Chief of Staff that the Phalangists' operation had been halted, that they had been ordered to leave the camps and that their departure would be effected by 5:00 a.m. Saturday. These preventive steps might well have seemed sufficient to the Defense Minister at that time, and it was not his duty to order additional steps to be taken, or to have the departure time moved up, a step which was of doubtful feasibility."

Edited February 18, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[Mark Stapleton]

It was Tim Gratz who, typically, claimed Bobby was a big supporter of Israel. As I pointed out to him, there's no proof that Bobby would have followed the strongly pro-Israel policy of LBJ. More likely, he might have followed his brother's impartial policy towards the Middle East.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mr. Piper,

I would like to know if you could address Ron Ecker's question on the other thread (post#237).

So far I haven't found your views to be overtly racist. Forthright, but not racist. I also agree with your concern about the US spending many billions of dollars in aid to Israel. There's no explanation given to the public for this. Shouldn't there be an explanation?

[Owen Parsons]

So far I haven't found your views to be overtly racist. Forthright, but not racist.

I don't think Piper dislikes the Jewish race as such, he just dislikes Jewish religion and culture. Indeed, he is very fond of reminding us of his friendship with Mark Lane and enjoys citing Jewish writers that in some way or another lend support to any of his numerous theories.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I don't think Piper dislikes the Jewish race as such, he just dislikes Jewish religion and culture.

I have very little interest in Piper's views on race or religion, but I am always curious about books dealing with the JFK assassination. Herewith some quotes from Chapter 11 of Piper's book and his postings on this thread:

"Whatever the case, it is very clear that the Mossad and the CIA had a direct hand in the strange activities of Clay Shaw, Guy Banister, David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans during the summer of 1963."

"That New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison was indeed on the right track is illustrated by a strange visit that Garrison got during the early days of his investigation. A Denver oilman, later identified by investigators as John King, appeared in Garrison’s office and offered to arrange the district attorney’s appointment to a federal judgeship in return for Garrison’s abandonment of his investigation. .....

John King’s visit to New Orleans is very clear evidence, indeed, that the role of Clay Shaw and Permindex is the key to the JFK assassination mystery."

"Garrison was circulating a manuscript for an unpublished NOVEL in which Garrison fingered Israel's Mossad as the force behind the JFK assassination."

"If you believe Garrison was on the right track in going after Clay Shaw, it is IMPOSSIBLE to dispute that Clay Shaw was in the thick of Mossad operations via his involvement with Permindex."

"But then, of course, people are stupid."

If anyone still believes Garrison's little fiction involving John King and his alleged attempt to bribe Garrison with a federal judgeship, consider this: Garrison was very quick to seek indictments of anyone whom he claimed was trying to obstruct his investigation, e.g. Walter Sheridan, Kerry Thornley and the utterly harmless Dean Andrews. Does anyone really believe that this guy King could walk into Garrison's office and offer him a bribe -- in the presence of one of Garrison's assistant D.A.'s -- and walk out out again without a pair of handcuffs on his wrists? "But then, of course, people are stupid."

When you read Chapter 11 of "Final Judgement" which is linked to one of his posts in this thread you will see that his whole theory of Mossad involvement seems to rest on one very dubious assumption. Piper writes "If you believe Garrison was on the right track in going after Clay Shaw, it is IMPOSSIBLE to dispute that Clay Shaw was in the thick of Mossad operations via his involvement with Permindex."

This reminds me of David Belin's "if you believe that Lee Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to dispute that Oswald murdered JFK." Even if you swallow the phoney logic involved in both Piper's and Belin's assertions, you first have have to believe that Lee Oswald murdered Tippit and that Garrison was right in going after Clay Shaw. There actually are people who believe one or both of these assertions, which supports Piper's theory that "people are stupid".

Thank you Mr. Piper for posting these telling extracts from your magnum opus. You just saved me twenty five bucks.

[Pat Speer]

There is really no evidence that Sharon had knowledge of the massacre (which was, I think the unfamiliar reader should know, carried out by the Phalangists, not the Israelis, something that is usually not brought up in the soundbites) until too late, and the intelligence received was not sufficient*, but certainly he deserves criticism for his lack of foresight in this situation, if nothing else. It should also be noted that the IDF rejected requests from the Phalangists, before they entered the refugee camps, for artillery and tanks. Why? So as to prevent injury to civillians.

Also, I don't think it serves the interests of truth to use the opinions of an ex-girlfriend as representative of all Israelis, as you do ("...in the minds of Israelis" "This is how Israelis feel" etc. etc.). But even if such sweeping statements were true, who can blame them for being paranoid? Just take a look at the history of modern Israel.

* From the Kahan Commission: "We do not believe that responsibility is to be imputed to the Defense Minister for not ordering the removal of the Phalangists from the camps when the first reports reached him about the acts of killing being committed there. As was detailed above, such reports initially reached the Defense Minister on Friday evening; but at the same time, he had heard from the Chief of Staff that the Phalangists' operation had been halted, that they had been ordered to leave the camps and that their departure would be effected by 5:00 a.m. Saturday. These preventive steps might well have seemed sufficient to the Defense Minister at that time, and it was not his duty to order additional steps to be taken, or to have the departure time moved up, a step which was of doubtful feasibility."

Owen, my ex-girlfriend didn't just talk the talk. For a considerable time while she was living in Israel, at least two years, she would regularly send me links to articles in the Israeli press. These articles invariably were about the insane blood-lust of Palestinians and Islamic fundamentalists and how the only way to stop them was to crush them and/or kill them first. Many of them called for U.S. military action against Iran. Obviously, not all Israelis feel this way.

As far as Sharon, I'm well aware that he was officially "cleared" of complicity in the slaughter. But I remember when it occurred, and I remember reading the initial eyewitness accounts of the first western journalists in the camps. There were Israeli guard towers overlooking the whole camp. Hundreds of men and children were rounded up and slaughtered in the streets. And yet the Israelis did NOTHING. I also remember Sharon's rhetoric and refusal to take any responsibility for this lack of action. It was the consensus of most everyone I spoke to, who were almost all supporters of Israel, that Sharon had worked out a wink-wink relationship of the phalangists. I have no idea of this is true. My describing Sharon as a "pig" is an accurate description of how he was perceived by many Americans at that time. I merely used this incident to demonstrate to the ever-complaining Piper that we're not all brain-washed into loving Sharon and Israel.

FWIW, I support Israel's continued existence. I just feel they should take the high road more often than they have. If you read about the U.N. you'll see that Israel has been one of the most reviled countries on Earth for some time and that only the United States' position on the security council has prevented their total ostracism. I feel that both Israel and the U.S. should be better neighbors, and more responsive to the legitimate concerns of other nations. Some may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... Yippee Skippee.