John B. Hurt

[Jim Root]

This quote by John B. Hurt was published under the title "A Version of the Japanese Problem in the Signal Intelligence Service (Later Signal Security Agency) 1930 - 1945" Published by the Army Security Agency in what appears to be Sept. of 1947. It was declassified on September 27, 1983.

"...Kennedy, the American Ambassador to London...was always incapable of folowing a consistent course, making one contradictory statement after another. At times he praised England most highly, and at other times, he declared that democracy was dead there. There was one thing, however, in which he was quite consistant. He was an American aristocrat with little feeling for common men anywhere." (Page 140)

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

[Jim Root]

Just surprised this never had a response....thoughts

Jim Root

[Ron Ecker]

Jim,

While it's certainly possible that John B. Hurt was the Hurt whom Oswald was trying to reach, why do you think Oswald would be given this man as a contact? What could be the mutual connection between them in the assassination plot? (This may have been previously discussed, but I don't recall any specifics.)

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

Jim: Since we all want to end this inquiry and get on with our lives, please tell us who was "the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son"?

[Terry Mauro]

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

Jim: Since we all want to end this inquiry and get on with our lives, please tell us who was "the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son"?

In 1938, Roosevelt appointed Kennedy as the United States Ambassador to the Court of St. James (the United Kingdom) in London, England. Kennedy's Irish and Catholic status did not bother very many of the British. Indeed, Kennedy hugely enjoyed his leadership position in London high society, which stood in stark contrast to his relative outsider status in Boston. His daughter Kathleen married the heir to the Duke of Devonshire, the head of one of England's grandest aristocratic families. Kennedy rejected the warnings of the Member of Parliament Winston S. Churchill that any compromise with Nazi Germany was impossible. Instead, Kennedy supported Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's apparent policy of appeasement in order to stave off a second World War that would be a more horrible "armageddon" than the first. Throughout 1938, while the Nazi persecution of the Jews in Germany and Austria intensified, Kennedy attempted to arrange a meeting with Adolf Hitler.[12] Shortly before the Nazi aerial bombing of British cities began in September 1940, Kennedy once again sought a personal meeting with Hitler, again without the approval of the Department of State, "to bring about a better understanding between the United States and Germany."[13]

[Jim Root]

Jim,

While it's certainly possible that John B. Hurt was the Hurt whom Oswald was trying to reach, why do you think Oswald would be given this man as a contact? What could be the mutual connection between them in the assassination plot? (This may have been previously discussed, but I don't recall any specifics.)

Ron

1) In the Warren Commission records we find that a couple of the attorneys dealing with researching the Silvia Odio incident speculated that the men who would have been with Oswald may have provided a contact or contact phone number to Oswald. I point this out because this possibility was not first postulated by myself but by people who were charged with investigating this murder.

2) While Oswald made repeated attempts to contact Jonathan Abt to be his attorney and had the DPD telephone operators retrieve several different numbers for Abt it is a bit of question why Oswald only attempted one call to John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina and seems to have been unconcerned with making any other attempts. It is my belief that the DPD operator thought that Oswald, just as he had with Abt, would want to make additional attempts and had therefore recovered two additional numbers for two other John Hurt's in the area. With SS personal at the ready, Oswald instead made no other attempt to call any other John Hurt and the operator tossed the numbers that, I believe, were never called but retrieved by the second operator and provided to the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

3) If number one has credence then, as most people believe, the Raleigh Call may have been placed not to John Hurt but to a "cut out" that would, by the time of the call, know exactly who Lee Harvey Oswald was and would be sure to pass the name up the "chain." Second side of this is that SS was at the ready and already knew that Oswald attempted this call but may not have know for what reason.....you can bet they investigated it but what happened to that investigation and why did it not become a part of the record?

4) Since we know that factually the work of John B. Hurt is still to this day classified whatever he was working on must have been of vital importance to the security of the United States (not looking for an argument here just stating thoughts), it would scare the hell out of the intellegence officials that would have the ability to know exactly what John B. Hurt had in fact been working on. Even more so that Lee Harvey Oswald would have the name and a number of a "cut out" and that he would use that name would instantly make the agencies of US intelligence fearful at the very least and perhaps motivate them to insure that Oswald would be quickly eliminated.

5) The Warren Commission some how missed this little detail (a call to someone unknown) or for reasons of perhaps National Securtiy need to avoid publishing this detail

6) The two people who investigated Oswald for potential intelligence contacts were both closely associated with John B. Hurt and his work (Rowlett and Gardiner).

7) I think it was only the name, not the man, John B. Hurt that Oswald was to mention to a "cut out" and this would have been done by the opporator when they attempted to place a person to person call from Lee Harvey Oswald to John B. Hurt. The call never needed to be completed. If nothing else the SS men had the name.

8) The conspirators could potentially have guarenteed the elimination of Lee Harvey Oswald if he used this name, as he did, without they themselves having to order his elimination. Nifty to say the least but they would have had to have known who John Hurt was, what his work was, who the right "cut out" would have been and how to get the info to Oswald (the Odio incident).

9) The person I believe the call went to was involved with Operation Stella Polaris as was Rowlett and Gardner, Edwin Walker, Richard Helms and John J. McCloy.

10) During WWII John B. Hurt was providing extrememly sensitive intelligence directly to John J. McCloy. McCloy was intimately familiar with the work of Hurt and would have known exactly the 'flags" that would have been raised by Oswald's attempt to contact a person with the name John Hurt no matter who the call went to!

11) And once again the information did not make it into the Warren Commission Report!

Jim Root

Edited January 7, 2010 by Jim Root

[Jim Root]

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

Jim: Since we all want to end this inquiry and get on with our lives, please tell us who was "the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son"?

J Raymond Carroll

If you read my posts you will find that I have seldom if ever written anything about Nov. 22, 1963. My research has been directed at identifying potential conspirators (primary being McCloy) rather than potential shooters. Seems that I have taken a little different approach than researchers but my approach has led to names and a plausible working theory on not only how the assassination was carried out but also covers how the Warren Commission would have been created and controlled (much by John J. McCloy in my belief) as well as how US intelligence agencies would be motivated to eliminate Oswald for the conspirators without the conspirators having to dirty their hands with this little detail.

It can show how Oswald was not used just once to eliminate a problem for McCloy (the first being the Paris Summit that was destroyed by the downing of a U-2 on May 1, 1960) but after a disagreement with Kennedy of the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963 McColy would once again become the chief arms negotiator after Kennedy's death.

Weather you want to beleive Oswald was a shooter or not it is his existance in the TSBD at the time of the assassination that was an essential element in the assassination plot. It is not who did the shooting but who wanted the shooting done and could carry it out without getting caught that is the real question.

Wouldn't you agree?

Jim Root

[William Kelly]

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

Jim: Since we all want to end this inquiry and get on with our lives, please tell us who was "the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son"?

J Raymond Carroll

If you read my posts you will find that I have seldom if ever written anything about Nov. 22, 1963. My research has been directed at identifying potential conspirators (primary being McCloy) rather than potential shooters. Seems that I have taken a little different approach than researchers but my approach has led to names and a plausible working theory on not only how the assassination was carried out but also covers how the Warren Commission would have been created and controlled (much by John J. McCloy in my belief) as well as how US intelligence agencies would be motivated to eliminate Oswald for the conspirators without the conspirators having to dirty their hands with this little detail.

It can show how Oswald was not used just once to eliminate a problem for McCloy (the first being the Paris Summit that was destroyed by the downing of a U-2 on May 1, 1960) but after a disagreement with Kennedy of the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963 McColy would once again become the chief arms negotiator after Kennedy's death.

Weather you want to beleive Oswald was a shooter or not it is his existance in the TSBD at the time of the assassination that was an essential element in the assassination plot. It is not who did the shooting but who wanted the shooting done and could carry it out without getting caught that is the real question.

Wouldn't you agree?

Jim Root

Jim,

I think I asked you this question before but don't recall the answer.

Are you familiar with John McCloy's role on the Draper Commission?

Thanks,

BK

[Jim Root]

Jim,

I think I asked you this question before but don't recall the answer.

Are you familiar with John McCloy's role on the Draper Commission?

Thanks,

BK

William

You asked me in an email.....my answer was a simple yes.

Looking deeper at McCloy you will find that he sat in on many many meetings and commissions dealing with cold war strategic planning, intelligence, Soviet Ameican Relations, Japanese American relations, etc., etc., etc., adviseor to presidents, etc., etc. More importantly he was present at the creation of the United States' modern intelligence organization and one of its prinical authors and creators. It is my belief that he remained at the pinnical of the intelligence heap for a majority of his life after 1939. As such it is my belief that he was aware of all of the most sensitve intelligence operations of the Cold War. It is, in my belief, for this reason that J. Edgar Hoover was worried about the publicity that might be generated by McCloy being on the Warren Commission, not that McCloy was a publicity seeker. McCloy worked rather quietly behind the scenes for years and years....not a seeker of publicity!

And people who crossed McCloy ended up dead! Period!

Jim Root

[J. Raymond Carroll]

J Raymond Carroll

If you read my posts you will find that I have seldom if ever written anything about Nov. 22, 1963. My research has been directed at identifying potential conspirators (primary being McCloy) rather than potential shooters.

Hi Jim: I do indeed read your posts, and am especially grateful for your focus on Richard Helms. I am not as convinced about the level of McCloy's involvement, though it seems clear that JFK was sick of him, and no doubt the feeling was mutual.

My comment about "the assassin" was meant to be seen as tongue-in-cheek, since I think most of us, probably including yourself, do not believe that Lee Oswald fits the bill.

Keep up the good work.

[Robert Howard]

J Raymond Carroll

If you read my posts you will find that I have seldom if ever written anything about Nov. 22, 1963. My research has been directed at identifying potential conspirators (primary being McCloy) rather than potential shooters.

Hi Jim: I do indeed read your posts, and am especially grateful for your focus on Richard Helms. I am not as convinced about the level of McCloy's involvement, though it seems clear that JFK was sick of him, and no doubt the feeling was mutual.

My comment about "the assassin" was meant to be seen as tongue-in-cheek, since I think most of us, probably including yourself, do not believe that Lee Oswald fits the bill.

Keep up the good work.

Jim did you catch Abraham Bolden's comment in his book referencing how he kept hearing the name Hurt and or Heard being bandied about by the Secret Service the weekend of the assassination?

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10109-10264

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 013859

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : USSS

FROM : CHICAGO

TO : WASHINGTON

TITLE : ABRAHAM BOLDEN

DATE : 00/00/0000

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

SUBJECTS : NARA; SKOLNICK, SHERMAN H.; HEARD, JOHN

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULL

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/10/1993

COMMENTS : USSS 242-2. Box 242.

I wouldn't mind knowing a little more about this.......

Edited January 7, 2010 by Robert Howard

[Jim Root]

Robert

Yes I am aware of Bolden and what he wrote.

In my simple mind I would guess that the SS would have followed two courses of investigation.

The first would have been to look for records of a John Hurt/Heard in intelligence data banks since Oswald had attempted, without success, to place a call to a person of similiar name. This would explain the Bolden claim that we have no reason, especially with what we now know about the Raleign Call, to think was some accidental or unimportant action by the SS.

The second, which I believe would have been more important, we find no record of anywhere. Simply tput it seems that it would have made since o interview or make contact with the person who the actual call went to (the original number) and who the person was that refused to accept the call (who would have said there was no John Hurt at that number). The Warren Commission interviewed thousands of people but we find no record of the call or of any interview of the recipiant of that call anywhere in the record.

Buliosi, love him or not, was a good prosecuter. In his book he points out that if a person/s actively covers up information in an investigation it can be used as support in the proof of guilt. The information about the Raleigh Call in one of three very important pieces of information that are, without question, in fact covered up by those who investigated the assassination. In wone primary instance the information is presented before McCloy as he is questioning FBI agent Hosty and McCloy neglects to make the information a part of the record. Each of the other two pieces of information that are missing from the offical report do point to areas that McCloy can be attached to as well seems to suggest, as Bugliosi might, that McCloy must have been involved because he so willingly participated in not only withholding information from the investigation but withholding information which could associate him with the crime itself.

We know that McCloy was in a dispute with Kennedy. We know that at the point of break between McCloy and Kennedy, Richard Helms of the CIA had the FBI begin monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald (who at the time was in Dallas and a Presidential Trip to Dallas was already in the works). We know that McCloy penned a letter to Maj. General Edwin Walker, who according to Gerrald Patrinck Hemming was involved in the insertion of Oswald into Russia (why no passenger records of Oswald's trip from London to Helsinki, another item not in the Warren Commission Report) some five months prior to the assassination but in conjuction with McCloy's break with Kennedy. We know that McCloy was insrumental in deciding who the lead counsel would be for the Warren Commission, for that matter we know that McCloy was instumental in ochestrating the entire career of Earl Warren. We know that McCloy was associated with John Hurt and his work. We know that Edwin Walker was assigned several very sensitive assignments that were of extreme interest to McCloy during WWII. And we can suggest that the actions of Edwin Walker in the immediate hours following the assassination could easily be discribed as the actions of a man who wanted to distance himself from any positive association with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Robert, I believe that the Bolden information is conformation that the lower levels of the SS was doing their job but the highest levels, for, I am sure, reasons of National Security, were forced to cover up the results of any investigation of who John Hurt was and why in h**l Lee Harvey Oswald would have his name and attempt to contact him.

Jim Root

[Jim Root]

J Raymond Carroll

If you read my posts you will find that I have seldom if ever written anything about Nov. 22, 1963. My research has been directed at identifying potential conspirators (primary being McCloy) rather than potential shooters.

Hi Jim: I do indeed read your posts, and am especially grateful for your focus on Richard Helms. I am not as convinced about the level of McCloy's involvement, though it seems clear that JFK was sick of him, and no doubt the feeling was mutual.

My comment about "the assassin" was meant to be seen as tongue-in-cheek, since I think most of us, probably including yourself, do not believe that Lee Oswald fits the bill.

Keep up the good work.

J Raymond Carroll

Thank you for the compliment....

I understand that "the assassin" comment was perhaps tongue-in-cheek and appreciate your pointing that out. I have been very careful to avoid dealing with that question for several reasons that I don't wish to go into here. But on the other side of that question is a problem that bothers me horrifically. And in all the years of my research I have never seen answered.

How many people were required to frame Oswald and maintain the "offical position?"

It does not seem to be to difficult of a question to answer with all the information that has been gatherd over the years.

Let's see perhaps we could start with the development of a second Oswald, the infiltration of Oswald into the TSBD building, Parkland Hospital, the autopsy, persons on Air Force One, SS men on the ground in Dallas, recurtiment, training and placement of additional assassins, persons to collect film of the assassination and the modification of those films, the planing for and elimination of persons of importance to the investigation and over 45 years of continued cover up.

I am sure that numerous people on this forum could provide countless names or actions of countless unnamed person that would begin to fill this list of conspirators or those in the employee of the conspirators.

This may be tongue-in-cheek but for the past 45 years this particular methodology has not seemed to have worked successfully.

One thing that I think that most everyon in the world that has any knowledge whatsoever of the assassination can agree upon is that Lee Harvery Oswald (in one form or another) was an essential element in the assassiantion of John F. Kennedy, conspiracy or not!

It is my investigation into Oswald, shooter or not, and how the President and Oswald ended up in exactly the same place at exactly the right moment for the assassination to occur that leads me to suspects. This investigation has led me to believe that McCloy may well have been the primary conspirator. He had motive, he had means and most importantly he had the ability to cover up the information that very well may have pointed directly to him and it was in fact covered up. And this, according to Bugliosi, makes him a viable suspect!

Jim Root