If the CIA was involved at all, in any way...

[Peter McGuire]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

[Don Jeffries]

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Peter,

The Secret Service is key here. Without their complete lack of response that day, the assassination would not have happened. Period. I think that many present day researchers are reluctant the call the conspiracy what it was; a gigantic plot by some of the most powerful people in America to murder a sitting U.S. president. I guess the logic is that if we scale down the number of persons involved, or even the power of the forces they represented, then the conspiracy is somehow made more acceptable to those who regularly decry "conspiracy theories." It would take a very large conspiracy indeed to cause the mainstream media to still lie about it over 40 years later. Imho, Oliver Stone portrayed the conspiracy as it probably was in "JFK."

Edited February 14, 2007 by Don Jeffries

[Sid Walker]

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Do you have an opinion - tentative or otherwise - about the question you have posed, Peter?

Who, in your view, was in control of the Secret Service detail at the time of the assassination?

Edited February 14, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Pat Speer]

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Do you have an opinion - tentative or otherwise - about the question you have posed, Peter?

Who, in your view, was in control of the Secret Service detail at the time of the assassination?

The "Secret Service was in on it" theory doesn't hold much water when you start looking at the subsequent reports and actions of their agents. Sure, they were part of the cover-up. Every bit of the government under LBJ was infused with cover-up-itis. But, if the SS was in it all the way, whywouldn't Rowley or Johnsen sign off on CE 399? Why did the majority of those in the detail, from Kellerman and Greer, to Roberts and Hickey, describe the shots in manner inconsistent with a lone assassin?

[Ashton Gray]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day?

Ah. And that brings us to Secretary of the Treasury at the time, C. Douglas Dillon—of the Dillon, Read & Co. banking family, close friend of the Rockefellers, and trustee of the Rockefeller Foundation 1960-1961.

If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Indeed.

Ashton

[Peter McGuire]

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Peter,

The Secret Service is key here. Without their complete lack of response that day, the assassination would not have happened. Period. I think that many present day researchers are reluctant the call the conspiracy what it was; a gigantic plot by some of the most powerful people in America to murder a sitting U.S. president. I guess the logic is that if we scale down the number of persons involved, or even the power of the forces they represented, then the conspiracy is somehow made more acceptable to those who regularly decry "conspiracy theories." It would take a very large conspiracy indeed to cause the mainstream media to still lie about it over 40 years later. Imho, Oliver Stone portrayed the conspiracy as it probably was in "JFK."

Yes, since what the Secret Service did and didn't do are right in front of our eyes. It is a hard and bitter pill to swallow for sure.

But if they were doing their job, they would have went into action while Kennedy was choking on something in his throat. For six seconds, the Agents did nothing. They turned around ( as seen in the Atgen's photo) , Johnson's follow up car door was open, Greer SLOWED DOWN , an Agent was CALLED BACK , Kellerman just SAT THERE!

Given that, reluctance to call it was it is , is almost an understatement.

Even the Z Film is so altered as to have very little value. I could never figure out why they cut that thing to pieces , then allowed the frontal shot to remain.

The movie "JFK" laid out a lot of material we know to be true, but the premise layed out in "Executive Action", works for better me; that is, stopping the decades long Kennedy Dynasty. It also accurately portrays the shot sequence and the framing of Lee Oswald.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[John Dolva]

in scouring the Mississippi Sovereignty files I have learnt that they were monitoring the FPCC since 1961. A network of intelligence agencies in about 14 states shared information. They particularly monitored movements of anyone on their lists who moved in and out of NO as this was a major staging point for the Freedom Riders.

NO appears to have been a headquarters where under the head of the LSC a lot of organisational decicions were formulated.

Not only did they have the state intelligence organistations providing/gathering information, there were a number of private detective agencies providing information. Bannister is recommended as such to the MSC in early 64' this means that the person recommending him had reason to do so prior to early '64.

____________

Harvey Henderson and Robert Lilley of the pres detail may have been feeding info as well.

There is a report of HH providing detailed service records of a person of interest (to the MSC) from the SS office in the Jackson PO in 1970.

Which brings me to my perennial favorite neglected research angle, the Postal Inspection Service of the USPO, the oldest intelligence gathering agency of the US government, that frequently had its Agents doubling as FBI informants. All mail potentially passed through their hands and personms marked as persons of interest would have their movements monitored. Harry Holmes in Dallas was the T7 informant.

It gets a little more complicated when one takes into account the reporting he did to his superiors in Washington, who in turn reported to the CIA. Harry effectively was a hop and skip away from Dulles, and on intimate terms with Dallas FBI. As well as being close to Fritz.

Which brings in the Police departments as sources/investigators. Col Birdsong of the Miss Highway Patrol was aware of the FPCC and were monitoring/receiving/sharing info. He may have been acting as an agent of the supposedly dormant Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence.

There was also the intelligence arm of the KKK with connections throughout society.

_______________

Perhaps the question shoud be : which of the Big Fish definitely DIDN'T know?

Edited February 14, 2007 by John Dolva

[Mark Johansson]

Pat Speer:

In any event, however, I agree with Larry and Cliff. The invasion of Cuba was part of the plan.

Thanks for chiming in, Pat.

I'm following my own advice and re-reading SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED.

The book deserves study -- and debating the merits of it with people

who haven't read it yet seems like a waste of time, imo.

http://www.larry-hancock.com/

The original thread on Someone Would Have Talked is what drew me to this forum. It remains, I believe, the most viewed thread in the history of this forum, and is probably the most informative, with a number of us sharing information, and not just picking at each other. Anyone interested in the book, or the potential of this forum, should take a look at the books section and curl up for a few hours.

Pat,

I could not agree with you more. Someone would have talked is the most informative book regarding the Kennedy assassination, according to me.

I ordered it as a venture, but the content came as a surprise to me, as it was very well written and hugely informative.

Larry Hancock should put a feather in his hat, because the book is absolutely brilliant.

In addition, the photos in the book by James Richards are, as always, very impressive.

Johansson

Edited February 14, 2007 by Mark Johansson

[Ron Ecker]

Why did SS agent Greer make sure that JFK's clothes were not available at autopsy, by having agent Riebka take them to the White House from Andrews and stow them in a locker?

Perhaps, since the Quincy series was not yet on TV, the Secret Service was simply unaware of the value of a victim's clothing to forensic pathologists.

[John Dolva]

Where is Jackie's hat?

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Somewhere in the many boxes of JFK ephemera that clutter my house, there is a letter written by Miami Secret Service to local CIA, extending thanks for all the fine assistance given by CIA to Secret Service in helping to protect JFK during his Florida trips, just prior to heading for Texas. [i obtained this letter via Vince Palamara, who, if he still visits here, may be able to locate a copy, since I cannot do so at present.]

While said letter may not demonstrate that CIA "controlled" Secret Service in the usually accepted sense of the word, it may give us a peek into the means by which CIA might have been able to theoretically study SS protocols in action, and the means by which it could have altered or circumvented those protocols.

For example, we have the issue of the Secret Service agent reportedly present near the grassy knoll shortly after the shots were fired. According to the extant record, there was no bona fide SS agent assigned there, yet those who encountered "him" there - including at least one cop - claimed he carried valid ID. Unknown to most people, SS operatives wear a small lapel pin, the colour and field of which are changed on a daily basis, so that SS personnel can recognize each other, even if they have never met before. [This allows local personnel to recognize the WH detail personnel and vice versa.] Whether such lapel pin was fabricated by Chauncey Holt or somebody else, close cooperation between CIA and SS in Florida may have provided CIA with a means to learn the changed-daily colour/field codes in order to insert a seemingly genuine operative there as a mopup man.

We have reports from the Military Intelligence personnel and the Dallas Sheriff's Department that they were instructed to "stand down" by somebody connected with the motorcade, presumably a SS staffer [for who else would have the unquestioned authority to deliver such an order to local personnel expecting that they would perform as part of the local security apparatus?] SS personnel have maintained they gave no such orders, yet presumably somebody did, and they must have been convincing and persuasive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever been able to square this dichotomy. One hypothetical means to achieve this end is, again, an imposter posing as a SS official. While I cannot prove that this took place, it seems a likely explanation for why there was so much confused fingerpointing, after the fact, with all parties claiming something the other denied. Likewise, while I cannot prove that CIA was enabled in procuring such an imposter as a direct result of its collaboration with SS personnel for the Florida trip, neither can one dismiss the possibility without more thorough investigation.

One of the more fascinating details from SS man Abraham Bolden's allegations is that, contrary to all WH Detail protocols, drinking by active duty SS personnel was rampant during JFK's trips. Were CIA able to divine such facts from observing the SS detail in Florida, it could then arrange for a friendly barkeep in Fort Worth to entertain the WH detail until the wee hours, and ensure that the liquor flowed freely. According to Pat Kirkwood, who ran the Cellar where the SS got loaded the night before the tragedy, he was phoned by reporters seeking to have liquor served after midnight, which the local Press Club did not allow. Kirkwood said the reporters had 17 SS men in tow [pretty much the entire WH detail], that they drank Everclear [pure alcohol] and stayed late into the night. [Pat Kirkwood, it turns out, was a former soldier of fortune with a pilot's license that he used to fly to Mexico the following day. Meanwhile, among the local reporters who either were, or were suspected of being, CIA operatives were Lonnie Hudkins and Hugh Aynesworth, either of whom could have made the call to Kirkwood.]

Then, we have the disquieting assertions of Forum member Gerry Hemming that he and a cohort of fellow mercenaries were dragooned into providing a security detail for Kennedy at Miami International Airport. Without any additional corroboration, I do not accept this claim at face value, nor do I believe that others should do so. However, if it does turn out to be true, it is highly doubtful that these men would have been press-ganged into such duties by Secret Service or even local police officials. Who, then, would have prevailed upon them to render this service? Well, if staff from JM/WAVE were part of the SS security detail in Florida, would CIA not have been the perfect candidate for inserting such potential assassins into the mix, providing a perfect opportunity to study the very protocols that needed to be overcome in any subsequent assassination attempt?

In short, I don't know that is was necessary for CIA to "control" SS; only that it had the opportunity via its Florida collaboration with SS to learn sufficient details that it could neutralize, compromise and circumvent SS protocols in a way that improved the chances for a successful hit on 11-22-63. All of which, in the absence of any more comprehensive investigation into this obscure facet of the crime, remains entirely hypothetical.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

in scouring the Mississippi Sovereignty files I have learnt that they were monitoring the FPCC since 1961. A network of intelligence agencies in about 14 states shared information. They particularly monitored movements of anyone on their lists who moved in and out of NO as this was a major staging point for the Freedom Riders.

NO appears to have been a headquarters where under the head of the LSC a lot of organisational decicions were formulated.

Not only did they have the state intelligence organistations providing/gathering information, there were a number of private detective agencies providing information. Bannister is recommended as such to the MSC in early 64' this means that the person recommending him had reason to do so prior to early '64.

____________

Harvey Henderson and Robert Lilley of the pres detail may have been feeding info as well.

There is a report of HH providing detailed service records of a person of interest (to the MSC) from the SS office in the Jackson PO in 1970.

Which brings me to my perennial favorite neglected research angle, the Postal Inspection Service of the USPO, the oldest intelligence gathering agency of the US government, that frequently had its Agents doubling as FBI informants. All mail potentially passed through their hands and personms marked as persons of interest would have their movements monitored. Harry Holmes in Dallas was the T7 informant.

It gets a little more complicated when one takes into account the reporting he did to his superiors in Washington, who in turn reported to the CIA. Harry effectively was a hop and skip away from Dulles, and on intimate terms with Dallas FBI. As well as being close to Fritz.

Which brings in the Police departments as sources/investigators. Col Birdsong of the Miss Highway Patrol was aware of the FPCC and were monitoring/receiving/sharing info. He may have been acting as an agent of the supposedly dormant Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence.

There was also the intelligence arm of the KKK with connections throughout society.

_______________

Perhaps the question shoud be : which of the Big Fish definitely DIDN'T know?

John;

In all probability, less than three persons may have been aware of who the ultimate target was, and, like many things, JFK may not have in fact been the original target.

And, as unlikely as it may sound to most, LHO may have actually done this strictly on his own as a result of being denied access to his original "target", thus costing him his time spent in the Soviet Union (creating his anti-attitude), as well as costing him the reward for elimination of his first designated target.

New Orleans, especially during the occupation forces of the Civil War, had easily learned the importance of spies and infiltrators into the enemy camps.

Therefore, the fact that many "families" were brought into such activities for the common good of the Southern Cause, was hardly uncommon.

And although many may have assisted LHO in one manner or another, few of these persons would have had any indications of what his designated purpose was, just as they would not have questioned exactly why? they were to assist him in his journey.

However, it is most unlikely that one will resolve much of this so long as they are looking for "myths"!

In event one operates under the general assumption that LHO's sojurn to the Soviet Union actually had some purpose (other than the mis-guided Marine), then it would be assumed that this trip (for cover story purposes) which began in August 1959 is not likely to have had too much relationship to JFK's Presidency since JFK was not elected until the 1960 election and did not take office until 1961.

One could however make a rational argument that LHO's trip to Russia could have easily been associated with Cuba as Castro took power in 1959 and shortly thereafter lost support of the US.

That LHO reportedly knew who was running guns to Castro also adds to this scenario, as well as the fact that LHO knew exactly who William Morgan was, as well as being familiar with the "Betancourt" name.

In these contexts, what may have begun as merelly a "young Marine" fantasy of fighting for fredom of the masses alongside William Morgan in Castro's "Revolution", would have easily turned to complete disdain for Castro.

And, since LHO's timeline for beginning to attempt to return to the US is directly in line with the timeline of the arrest and ultimate firing squad execution of William Morgan in Cuba, the two items, it would appear, may have some relationship to LHO's sudden decision to leave Cuba.

Even after return to the US, LHO's activities were directly geared towards "convincing" that he was some form of Socialist/Marxist/Communist, who should be allowed access/entry into Cuba.

And, not unlike many inexperienced actors, LHO "over-acted" the part!

So, one could assume that LHO merely wanted to get into Cuba to avenge the firing squad execution of his hero Major William Morgan, but most unlikely considering that he had a wife and children.

And, since LHO's "anti-americanism" activities were associated directly with multiple entities of whom he would have had absolutely no knowledge without being "fed" that information, then it is most unlikely that LHO took it upon himself to be some "Lone Avenger" of the death of William Morgan.

All of which points directly to "directed" intentions, with the ultimate intent being to get himself into Castro's Cuba.

Which was most unlikely for the intent of joining Castro's forces since Castro was well familiar with the need to eliminate any americans from his control of the government and armed forces.

To an extremely high degree of probability, LHO was being assisted and guided to some goal which would have ultimately resulted in the elimination of Fidel Castro.

[Pat Speer]

Why did SS agent Greer make sure that JFK's clothes were not available at autopsy, by having agent Riebka take them to the White House from Andrews and stow them in a locker?

Perhaps, since the Quincy series was not yet on TV, the Secret Service was simply unaware of the value of a victim's clothing to forensic pathologists.

I suspect you're right, Ron. Greer could easily have screwed up. A related question is why didn't Humes ask to inspect the clothes? I believe Finck said he asked to look at them but Humes said "fuhhgeddabouddit." Well, Humes was used to determining cause of death. It seemed obvious JFK had been killed by a gunshot to the brain. I suspect the exact nature and location of the back wound just didn't seem that important at the time. They were in a hurry. They had all these officials waiting around. It was a circus. Even so, there are a few "errors" which I find inexcusable, e.g. the decision not to quarter the brain.

[John Dolva]

in scouring the Mississippi Sovereignty files I have learnt that they were monitoring the FPCC since 1961. A network of intelligence agencies in about 14 states shared information. They particularly monitored movements of anyone on their lists who moved in and out of NO as this was a major staging point for the Freedom Riders.

NO appears to have been a headquarters where under the head of the LSC a lot of organisational decicions were formulated.

Not only did they have the state intelligence organistations providing/gathering information, there were a number of private detective agencies providing information. Bannister is recommended as such to the MSC in early 64' this means that the person recommending him had reason to do so prior to early '64.

____________

Harvey Henderson and Robert Lilley of the pres detail may have been feeding info as well.

There is a report of HH providing detailed service records of a person of interest (to the MSC) from the SS office in the Jackson PO in 1970.

Which brings me to my perennial favorite neglected research angle, the Postal Inspection Service of the USPO, the oldest intelligence gathering agency of the US government, that frequently had its Agents doubling as FBI informants. All mail potentially passed through their hands and personms marked as persons of interest would have their movements monitored. Harry Holmes in Dallas was the T7 informant.

It gets a little more complicated when one takes into account the reporting he did to his superiors in Washington, who in turn reported to the CIA. Harry effectively was a hop and skip away from Dulles, and on intimate terms with Dallas FBI. As well as being close to Fritz.

Which brings in the Police departments as sources/investigators. Col Birdsong of the Miss Highway Patrol was aware of the FPCC and were monitoring/receiving/sharing info. He may have been acting as an agent of the supposedly dormant Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence.

There was also the intelligence arm of the KKK with connections throughout society.

_______________

Perhaps the question shoud be : which of the Big Fish definitely DIDN'T know?

John;

In all probability, less than three persons may have been aware of who the ultimate target was, and, like many things, JFK may not have in fact been the original target.

And, as unlikely as it may sound to most, LHO may have actually done this strictly on his own as a result of being denied access to his original "target", thus costing him his time spent in the Soviet Union (creating his anti-attitude), as well as costing him the reward for elimination of his first designated target.

New Orleans, especially during the occupation forces of the Civil War, had easily learned the importance of spies and infiltrators into the enemy camps.

Therefore, the fact that many "families" were brought into such activities for the common good of the Southern Cause, was hardly uncommon.

And although many may have assisted LHO in one manner or another, few of these persons would have had any indications of what his designated purpose was, just as they would not have questioned exactly why? they were to assist him in his journey.

However, it is most unlikely that one will resolve much of this so long as they are looking for "myths"!

In event one operates under the general assumption that LHO's sojurn to the Soviet Union actually had some purpose (other than the mis-guided Marine), then it would be assumed that this trip (for cover story purposes) which began in August 1959 is not likely to have had too much relationship to JFK's Presidency since JFK was not elected until the 1960 election and did not take office until 1961.

One could however make a rational argument that LHO's trip to Russia could have easily been associated with Cuba as Castro took power in 1959 and shortly thereafter lost support of the US.

That LHO reportedly knew who was running guns to Castro also adds to this scenario, as well as the fact that LHO knew exactly who William Morgan was, as well as being familiar with the "Betancourt" name.

In these contexts, what may have begun as merelly a "young Marine" fantasy of fighting for fredom of the masses alongside William Morgan in Castro's "Revolution", would have easily turned to complete disdain for Castro.

And, since LHO's timeline for beginning to attempt to return to the US is directly in line with the timeline of the arrest and ultimate firing squad execution of William Morgan in Cuba, the two items, it would appear, may have some relationship to LHO's sudden decision to leave Cuba.

Even after return to the US, LHO's activities were directly geared towards "convincing" that he was some form of Socialist/Marxist/Communist, who should be allowed access/entry into Cuba.

And, not unlike many inexperienced actors, LHO "over-acted" the part!

So, one could assume that LHO merely wanted to get into Cuba to avenge the firing squad execution of his hero Major William Morgan, but most unlikely considering that he had a wife and children.

And, since LHO's "anti-americanism" activities were associated directly with multiple entities of whom he would have had absolutely no knowledge without being "fed" that information, then it is most unlikely that LHO took it upon himself to be some "Lone Avenger" of the death of William Morgan.

All of which points directly to "directed" intentions, with the ultimate intent being to get himself into Castro's Cuba.

Which was most unlikely for the intent of joining Castro's forces since Castro was well familiar with the need to eliminate any americans from his control of the government and armed forces.

To an extremely high degree of probability, LHO was being assisted and guided to some goal which would have ultimately resulted in the elimination of Fidel Castro.

Excellent reasoning that aborts at a critical stage.

"LHO was being assisted and guided to some goal which would have ultimately resulted in the elimination of Fidel Castro."

And that in itself is a pointless exercise. There were 'underground railway' entries to Cuba. No need for any overt subterfuge. Nothing Lee did or acted out would have made him welcome in Cuba. What his actions did do was establish in the eyes of those unfamiliar with the security setups of leftwing revolutionary organisations was a stereotyped persona who was trying to do what you suggest. This is done by 'the other side', which, being who they are, cannot understand these subtleties. Lee's actions identifies him with those elements. IOW it's the OPPOSITE of what you suggest that is the reason for the assassination. What you are describing is the 'public consumptions' smoke screen. It's the interests of those creating the smoke screeen that lead to the reason.

[Ron Ecker]

So was the CIA involved or not?

Edited February 15, 2007 by Ron Ecker