Bradley Ayers' THE ZENITH SECRET is out..

[William Kelly]

INTERESTING INTERCHANGE:

Bill wrote (many moons ago):

I thought we were evaluating BEA's character, and you said he made up "Pearl" as a figment of his imagination, and I now question whether you are making up characters too. Why is that an insult to you, but not to BEA?

To which I responded yesterday:

So BIll thought I "made up" Mrs. Eisenhower? What a laugh!

To which Bill's retort is:

Tim, Did I even mention Mrs. Eisenhower? Is she the only character in your stroy?

Why, Bill, yes of course Mrs. Eisenhower is the only person I introduced into this thread. You know that as well as I do. Pearl, of course, was invented by Mr. Ayers, not by me.

I see Fantasy Fest is still going on in Key West.

Bk

[Tim Gratz]

Notice BK accused me of making up a character; I called him on it; he came back with a meaningless answer; and then when I called him on THAT, what does he come up with?

I'm not sure whether his post above should be characterized as risible or pathetic. An apology would have been in order, of course.

[William Kelly]

Notice BK accused me of making up a character; I called him on it; he came back with a meaningless answer; and then when I called him on THAT, what does he come up with?

I'm not sure whether his post above should be characterized as risible or pathetic. An apology would have been in order, of course.

Tim, Why are you so nasty? Were you treated mean as a kid?

And Wait a minute, YOU'RE the ONE who claims BEA made up a character, Pearl.

I'm the one who compared your background with Bradley Ayers, the decorated veteran Ranger you have called a lier without knowing him or even reading his books.

And you call me "desperate," risible and/or pathetic.

I think you should apologize to Brad Ayers for calling him a lier, to Pearl for saying she doesn't exist, to me for hijacking my posts about BEA and JMWAVE and to the members of this forum for being such an obnoxious jerk.

I have to look up risible, but there is no pathos.

BK the Desperado,

Happy Halloween

[Tim Gratz]

Nasty? Bill, kind sir, you are the one who accused me of "making up characters", i.e. lying.

We do know that Judy Eisenhower read Chapters 31 and 32 of Ayers book and states that no one fitting that description ever worked for BG.

You have said you were in telephone contact with Ayers. All you would have to do is ask him for the NAME of the person he claimed worked for BG.

Why would Mrs. Eisenhower lie about something that can be so easily verified once Ayers gives up the name? It makes no sense that she is lying.

So we have the following possibilities: a person (named Pearl or not) approached Ayers and made up this cockeyed story. Presumably the person male or female told Ayers the name of his or her father. It would have been simple for Ayers to verify that person's employment with BG. I mean the daughter or son would have even had access to the father's tax returns. Surely had Ayers verified the man's employment with BG he would have mentioned it. Frankly, the only reason why I can think he FAILED to verify it is because he made up Pearl.

Now who is the nasty one? You accused or implied I was lying. When I went back and checked and found out that I was incorrect in attributing that implication to Robert Charles-Dunne, I sincerely apologized to him.

When you implied I made up a character, THAT was a trick. Now you owe me a treat!

Happy Halloween to you, Bill.

P.S. "xxxx" not "lier". I say that realizing I make a lot of typos myself.

[William Kelly]

Nasty? Bill, kind sir, you are the one who accused me of "making up characters", i.e. lying.

We do know that Judy Eisenhower read Chapters 31 and 32 of Ayers book and states that no one fitting that description ever worked for BG.

You have said you were in telephone contact with Ayers. All you would have to do is ask him for the NAME of the person he claimed worked for BG.

Why would Mrs. Eisenhower lie about something that can be so easily verified once Ayers gives up the name? It makes no sense that she is lying.

So we have the following possibilities: a person (named Pearl or not) approached Ayers and made up this cockeyed story. Presumably the person male or female told Ayers the name of his or her father. It would have been simple for Ayers to verify that person's employment with BG. I mean the daughter or son would have even had access to the father's tax returns. Surely had Ayers verified the man's employment with BG he would have mentioned it. Frankly, the only reason why I can think he FAILED to verify it is because he made up Pearl.

Now who is the nasty one? You accused or implied I was lying. When I went back and checked and found out that I was incorrect in attributing that implication to Robert Charles-Dunne, I sincerely apologized to him.

When you implied I made up a character, THAT was a trick. Now you owe me a treat!

Happy Halloween to you, Bill.

P.S. "xxxx" not "lier". I say that realizing I make a lot of typos myself.

Anyone who accuses someone of making up characters is certainly capable of making up characters himself.

I think the options are: Tim has purposely distracted this thread from reviewing what BEA has to say about his time at JMWAVE and the other characters he met there, or he really is interested in determning who in the Goldwater office was responsible for liason with the Mexican-American voters in Arizona and establishing this person's relationship with Morales and Pearl.

Let's see? Which is it?

And "risible" - to provoke laughter - I certainly hope so.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, are you still trying to claim that I "made up" Judy Eisenhower?

Your statement that anyone who would claim someone "made up a character" is capable of doing so himself makes no sense whatsover. I mean, cannot ANYONE make up a character? Moreover it makes no sense in the context of this thread since the only person I referenced was Judy Eisenhower and if you were implying I made HER up well that is indeed what IS risible!

I would also point out that it was YOU who inserted the Pearl story into this thread (much to your current regret I am sure).

And Bill we have to first establish whether Ayers lied about the Pearl story or not. The way to do that is to have him NAME who he claims this courier was. I can assure you that I do intend to get around to that before the Second Coming--although that may be soon--no man knows the time.

If Ayers made up Pearl, whatever else he says cannot be trusted without independent verification. That, my friend, is what concerns you.

If Ayers made up Pearl and thereby discredits himself, it is HIS fault not MINE, Bill.

So I think I will start with a simple request to Ayers: name the man you state worked for BG. The reason I strongly suspect the whole incident is fictional is because he does not mention verifying the man's employment with BG which he could have easily accomplished and I am confident he would have mentioned how he verified it had he done so. If the man really existed, why did he not verify the man's employment?

I almost think you are baiting me to come up with a name of a staff member to BG so you can feed that to Ayers so he can regurgitate it. But I am a bit smarter than that! He is going to have to name the man FIRST.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[William Kelly]

Bill, are you still trying to claim that I "made up" Judy Eisenhower?

Your statement that anyone who would claim someone "made up a character" is capable of doing so himself makes no sense whatsover. I mean, cannot ANYONE make up a character? Moreover it makes no sense in the context of this thread since the only person I referenced was Judy Eisenhower and if you were implying I made HER up well that is indeed what IS risible!

I would also point out that it was YOU who inserted the Pearl story into this thread (much to your current regret I am sure).

And Bill we have to first establish whether Ayers lied about the Pearl story or not. The way to do that is to have him NAME who he claims this courier was. I can assure you that I do intend to get around to that before the Second Coming--although that may be soon--no man knows the time.

If Ayers made up Pearl, whatever else he says cannot be trusted without independent verification. That, my friend, is what concerns you.

If Ayers made up Pearl and thereby discredits himself, it is HIS fault not MINE, Bill.

So I think I will start with a simple request to Ayers: name the man you state worked for BG. The reason I strongly suspect the whole incident is fictional is because he does not mention verifying the man's employment with BG which he could have easily accomplished and I am confident he would have mentioned how he verified it had he done so. If the man really existed, why did he not verify the man's employment?

I almost think you are baiting me to come up with a name of a staff member to BG so you can feed that to Ayers so he can regurgitate it. But I am a bit smarter than that! He is going to have to name the man FIRST.

Tim,

You are the only person I know who is interested in Pearl and her story.

Ayers is not going to talk to anyone until he subpoened to testify officially before Congress or a prosecutor/grand jury, and I don't blame him.

You can rant and rave all you want about Pearl and her story and it won't change anything.

I do think it valuable for researchers who are interested to look into Goldwater's connections, not only to Morales, but to the murder of Don Bolles and the allegations that Pearl makes. I just don't have the time or inclination to do it.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

So Bill are you stating now that you have talked to Ayers and he is going to refuse to provide ANY MORE INFORMATION about the allegations he made in Chapter 31 and 32?

Well, if that is indeed what you are saying, I rest my case. He cannot back up a thing he says! He refuses to disclose the name of the man he claims worked for BG.

I think that says it all.

[William Kelly]

So Bill are you stating now that you have talked to Ayers and he is going to refuse to provide ANY MORE INFORMATION about the allegations he made in Chapter 31 and 32?

Well, if that is indeed what you are saying, I rest my case. He cannot back up a thing he says! He refuses to disclose the name of the man he claims worked for BG.

I think that says it all.

No Tim, I have not talked to Ayers.

You have his address, you said you were going to write to him and ask him your questions and you would post his response here.

Consider that three books were released at the same time - E. Howard Hunt's autobio, the bio of William Harvey and Ayers' Zenith Secret, and two of the authors are dead. I don't blame Ayers for not wanting to talk to anybody anymore.

Of course you have already achieved your purpose, and anyone interested in what Brad Ayers has to say about the Zenith Secret - aka JMWAVE - that I have posted under this thread, is now burried under your hundred and one posts on Pearl and Mrs. Eisenhower, who I acknowledge is a real person and not a character you made up.

By implying that BEA made up the Pearl story you then imply that everything else he says is untrue, and that he also made up the part about the Zenith Technical Services, JMWAVE, training the anti-Castro Cuban commandos, the safe houses, the Rex, the missions to Cuba, Gordon Campbell, Morales and the connections to the Dealey Plaza operation.

No one will ever bother reading through your BS to find the few real nuggets of truth that Ayers offers that really are important in understanding how and why JFK was killed.

Some students of the assassination are actually interested in figuring it out and learn everything there is to be learned about various aspects of the murder, and then take it another step and identify new records and new witnesses and then question them and add a new piece to the puzzle.

But you are smarter than that, and all you do is cut off the questions before the answers can be found.

Oh well, (Sigh),

BK

Edited November 1, 2007 by William Kelly

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, well I am PLEASED that you were not stating that Ayers refuses to answer any questions about Chapters 31 and 32. My first question to him will be easy: identify by name the man he says was on Goldwater's staff. That should not put him to much work.

You of all people ought to be interested in determining whether Ayers is a truth-teller or not. If, that is, you WANT the truth as opposed to simply confirmation of your pet theories.

I never said that everything Ayers every said was a lie. Problem is if he lied about Pearl, we have no way to distinguish when he is telling the truth and when he is lying. In rereading Ch 31 I noted that while this Pearl story was being developed he was flat broke and desperately searching for a publisher.

[Tim Gratz]

Bill wrote in Post #195:

Some students of the assassination are actually interested in figuring it out and learn everything there is to be learned about various aspects of the murder,

But he also wrote in the immediately preceding post:

You are the only person I know who is interested in Pearl and her story.

Now since Ayers states at least to the effect that Pearl's story shows that BG was at the heart of the assassination conspiracy, that certainly means that Bill himself does not fit into the category of ". . . students of the assassination [who] are actually interested in figuring it out and learn [sic] everything there is to be learned about various aspects of the murder." If he was such a student, he would be MOST interested in Pearl's story about the money being treansferred to fund the assassination.

Unless of course Bill knows it is a phony story which would explain why it does not interest him.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Ayers claims that Pearl's father died some time in 1991. Presumably there would be a newspaper obituary if he had been such an important member of BG's staff for so many years. I assume Ayers must have researched that! (If Pearl existed that is.)

[William Kelly]

Bill wrote in Post #195:

Some students of the assassination are actually interested in figuring it out and learn everything there is to be learned about various aspects of the murder,

But he also wrote in the immediately preceding post:

You are the only person I know who is interested in Pearl and her story.

Now since Ayers states at least to the effect that Pearl's story shows that BG was at the heart of the assassination conspiracy, that certain means that Bill himself does not fit into the category of ". . . students of the assassination [who] are actually interested in figuring it out and learn [sic] everything there is to be learned about various aspects of the murder." If he was such a student, he would be MOST interested in Pearl's story about the money being treansferred to fund the assassination.

Unless of course Bill knows it is a phony story which would explain why it does not interest him.

Tim,

Real detectives work from the evidence on the street up the various levels of a conspiracy to the top, they don't start at the top and work down.

Okay, I'm interested in learning more about Barry Goldwater and his connections to the assassination, especially what Pearl told BEA and the whole Arizona - Goldwater, Don Bolles, Joe Bonanno, Sr., the Licovelis, Grace Ranch, and what's the name of that FBI guy - Rohmer, who runs second only to Jack Revill as bad federalie cops bought off by those responsible for the muder of JFK - and you can call him and tell him I said that if you want to -

but that whole Arizona/New Mexico scene is such a mess that somebody other than me will have to put it all together. When Bolles was killed every major newspaper sent a reporter down there to finish the stories he was working on and they came out with all kinds of stuff that was never properly followed up on.

I mean the New Yorker pays Jeff Morley and David Talbot, two aces four you - to go down there and check out the whole Morales thing - and the Gordon Campbell, Joannides Ambassador Hotel connection - and they came back with a death certificate for GC and a kill fee for a story we haven't and may never see. And remember the story David Leigh wrote on assignment from Ben Bradlee that got spiked. I think there's a story there regardless of what is discovered.

And I have made a phone call on it - to a former fireman who was at the Don Bolles murder scene - who knew Morales and said Morales either owned or had interest in a nightclub that hosted boxing matches and he was big into boxing. And that there is a Morales/Goldwater connection, but it wasn't exactly clear. But there are still untapped leads on Morales and I wish we were able to see what Talbot and Morley learned, other than what's in the BBC-SOS bashing piece. There is more to this story, and I don't think either BEA or Mrs. Eisenhower have the answers.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, running out of time to respond now but to say the name of the FBI man to whom you refer is William Roemer. He was of course the man who hounded poor Sam Giancana and then in "Sugartime" he plays, excellently by the way, a CIA man giving Giancana a contract to kill Castro.

[Tim Gratz]

Bill wrote:

Okay, I'm interested in learning more about Barry Goldwater and his connections to the assassination, especially what Pearl told BEA

What Pearl?