My ONE Simple Unanswered Question !

[Michael Hogan]

As far as I know, I am the only person to try and understand how and why the Parkland witnesses could be wrong.

[Bernice Moore]

As far as I know, I am the only person to try and understand how and why the Parkland witnesses could be wrong.

**********************************

Pat Speer :""When I looked at all the evidence, I saw that the witnesses, the Z-film, and the autopsy photos all complement each other quite nicely. ""

The Government was in charge of....all

The Evidence, so

It would be no surprise that you would find, that your

Witness statements ,

The Zapruder film, and

The Autopsy photos would all compliment each other....?

If that is what you went looking for..

B..

[Don Jeffries]

Charlie,

Apparently, the witnesses in Dealey Plaza were a very confused bunch. Many of them, including every police officer except Marion Baker, immediately ran up the grassy knoll after the assassination. They would also report that they believed the shots came from that area. All of this, according to the "experts," was due to the "echo effect" of the Dealey Plaza area that is apparently well-known (at least to these "experts"). Vince Palamara has tabulated the testimony of all those confused witnesses who reported that the presidential limousine stopped or slowed almost to a standstill. They too were evidently fooled by the forces swirling around Dealey Plaza that day, perhaps an unforeseen residual byproduct of the "echo effect." This confusion continued at Parkland Hospital, where all those medical people described a huge, gaping wound in the back of the president's head. This wound is not seen on autopsy photos, however, and doesn't appear to be reflected in the extant films of the assassination. So, we must assume that these medical personnel were all mistaken in the exact same way. Despite Pat Speer's comforting theory, I for one would be pretty reluctant to ever seek treatment at a hospital where many, many doctors and nurses were under the misimpression that the back of my head held a huge, gaping wound. That kind of "mistake" would be pretty unbelievable if a class of kindergartners made it. Before Jack White and others ever publicly postulated that the Zapruder film was altered, I couldn't understand why it appears to show the right side of JFK's face being blown away, while all the Dallas medical people reported the face as being intact. I still am an agnostic on the subject of alteration, primarily because the Zapruder film does still clearly contain evidence of conspiracy, but I've never understood the hostility of some CTers towards alterationists. This case has been filled with lies, distortions, convenient deaths and unforeseen conversions of opinion (always from one that questioned the official account to one that supported it) from the very beginning. It has never been filled with curious journalists, crusading politicians, interested friends of the Kennedys or any type of real investigation. Keep on being skeptical.

[Chuck Robbins]

Charlie,

The question you ask is one that will most likely never have a real answer.

So much of what the eyewitnesses said, and they said a lot, has been dismissed by those who find the statements

they gave inconvenient.

Statements such as "look out, they're shooting back!" "the last shot sounded like a .45" "the president was standing

in the car" were all descriptions of events not seen in the filmed record. Many more details exist in the witness

statements which were not investigated properly.

To dismiss these kind of statements, it would first be necessary to question thoroughly those who gave the statements.

As far as I can tell...there was no attempt made to verify these stories, the onus was on dismissing their recollections

as mistakes or faulty memories.

Attention to detail was not the rallying cry heard when Dallas authorities began their "investigation" of the crime.

More attention was given to burying information than was ever spent upon uncovering information.

Even now, after the A.R.R.B. was supposed to have left no information kept in secret, we still see massive amounts of

data hidden from us under the umbrella of "national security".

If the information being kept from us proves a conspiracy was responsible for JFK's death (which I believe) there is no

doubt that national security is at stake.

The list of after-the-fact accessories would be a mile long and involve those in the highest offices of government. Their

security is the "national security" they hide the evidence behind.

I am sure that their fear of capital punishment is the glue that has kept the acts of 11/22/63 secret for so long.

How nice it must be for the plotters to feel that no punishment will ever come to them.

How nice for them to have a nation of people who refuse to demand an honest accounting of that days events.

How they must truly dislike people like us who won't play by their rules.

[Charles Black]

Hello Pat

Even tho I don't agree almost in any way with your proposals, I don't expect the amount of effort which you have devoted to your study, to be set aside by my "little posting".

But I certainly HOPE that you are wrong ! I would like to think that were I taken to a Trauma Room, that the medical staff would be "Cognizant Enough" to determine where and the general seriousness of my wounds, even if I were hung upside down and slowly spun around. I not only "hope" but I feel that most could adequately do this.

You have certainly in no way even slightly changed my views. Pat, I cannot go thru life thinking A)

that the majority of the world lacks reasonable cognizance and that what I feel is a very obviously altered film, that has only been in the hands of a group conspirators, who had access to the most technologically elite minds in the world; did not alter this film...therefore I should believe that all of the Dealey Plaza witness testimony, on the afternoon of 11/22/63, is wrong due to the acute degree of incognizance of all of them.

Pat, I feel that this is as ridiculous as "any" idea that I have heard !

Charlie Black

[Charles Black]

Hello Don

I understand and respect your viewpoints, but I dont believe you have addressed MY Question.

The persons who ran up the grassy knoll following the sound of gunshots, I don't doubt were absolutely correct in their assessment, as the persons who turned to the TSBD may have been.

In my personal opinion, I of course concede that there were echoes at play in the Plaza. I also strongly believe that actual gunshots were in fact coming from different areas of the Plaza....some of which may have been diversionary. I also "suspect" that there is a strong likelihood that sound supressed weapons were used.

IMHO, there is nothing that should lead me to believe that all of the eyewitnesses suffered some mass hysteria and did not "see and comprehend" correctly.

Even tho military personnel are trained for combat,

there is nothing that can perepare a young man for the confusion and fear of real live combat. In most instances, these young men are cognizant enough of what they see and hear, to stay alive and return fire toward the enemy, rather than their own companions.

I feel that the Dealey Plaza eyewitness, without discussing the matter with each other, basically reported the "actual event as it happened". Not some product of their confused imaginations. These reports meshed with each other. They ONLY do not mesh with the film.

I have no reason to believe that all of these people are wrong because it has been in the best interest of "some" to ATTEMPT to make me believe what I feel to be the "Most Important Lie" being told during the 43 years of this investigation. THAT LIE, I personally feel, is the successful effort of the conspirators to convince many of you that this one particular type of film, cannot successfully be altered by "ANYONE".

I feel that someone expecting me to believe this is an "offense to me" !

Charlie Black

[Chris Brown]

Charles, the fact that all the Parkland hospital doctors saw John Kennedy one way, and the Bethesda hospital doctors all saw Kennedy's body looking quite different is either:

1. The Bethesda doctors were lying or; 2. Someone altered the body after it left Parkland hospital -- which may be why Arthur Schlesinger, as I said on another thread, told Bobby Kennedy to close the coffin as it wasn't John Kennedy, it was a "wax dummy."

Kathy

Hi Kathy

Didn't the Bethesda technicians describe the head wound remarkably similar to the Parkland team, and therefore in broard disagreement with humes, boswell & Finck.

When I first heard this (on R. Grodens 'A case for conspiracy' ) It was a 'jaw droping moment.'

My conclusion: the Autopsy was a sham.

Chris Brown.

[Charles Black]

Hello Chuck

I am in general agreement with most of what you said unfortunately.

Allen Dulles once said something that I feel he had a little "wrong". The Americah people "do" read "somewhat" ! Where the problem lies, is that they all do not read at a high enough intellectual level. I am not implying "stupidity".....only naivete. The American people have been successffully "brainwashed" to believe that we are

"The land of the free and the home of the Brave".

Coups d' Etat do not happen in the USA....only in Bananna Republics and third world "hell holes".

We were taught quite incorrectly. We are fraught with corruption, as are most governments, and our people and our military is quite capable of attrocities and horrible war crimes.

We need to wake up ! Behold a new dawn ! Address the crimes that we have comitted against humanity, and realize that our government has committed "ITS BIGGEST CRIME" against its own people.

I suppose there were people in caves some 20,000 years ago that figured out that..."The easiest persons to deceive and hurt are those that trust and love you".

This is the reason that this Coup d' etat was successful. No one wants to believe that those whom they respect and love would BETRAY them.

Regardless of the preachings of all of the modern religions, I PERSONALLY, feel that the BETRAYAL by those whom you have entrusted, is the biggest hurt, the BIGGEST SIN that can be comitted.

It is such a horrible concept, that often even when faced with overwhelming proof, we are relunctant to believe that our love and faith can be betrayed.

This is the reason that I felt assured when I started this thread, that it WOULD NOT be answered with logic and reason. It is some kind of a reluctance to admit that we have been so naive that we have truly been "VERY EASY TARGETS".

This is why this LONG SOLVED CASE will never come to conclusion. Most of us are TOO PROUD to admit that we can be so easily manipulated with excuses that really do not make sense !

The actual TRUTH is too PAINFUL.

I don't feel there is any degree of mystery left in this matter....unless you are one of those who must know who pulled what trigger, from behind what type of concealment, how many times !

The Coup has been understood by most of the world, as well as the REALISTS within the U.S., for probably four decades.

Charlie Black

[Don Jeffries]

Hello Don

I understand and respect your viewpoints, but I dont believe you have addressed MY Question.

The persons who ran up the grassy knoll following the sound of gunshots, I don't doubt were absolutely correct in their assessment, as the persons who turned to the TSBD may have been.

In my personal opinion, I of course concede that there were echoes at play in the Plaza. I also strongly believe that actual gunshots were in fact coming from different areas of the Plaza....some of which may have been diversionary. I also "suspect" that there is a strong likelihood that sound supressed weapons were used.

IMHO, there is nothing that should lead me to believe that all of the eyewitnesses suffered some mass hysteria and did not "see and comprehend" correctly.

Even tho military personnel are trained for combat,

there is nothing that can perepare a young man for the confusion and fear of real live combat. In most instances, these young men are cognizant enough of what they see and hear, to stay alive and return fire toward the enemy, rather than their own companions.

I feel that the Dealey Plaza eyewitness, without discussing the matter with each other, basically reported the "actual event as it happened". Not some product of their confused imaginations. These reports meshed with each other. They ONLY do not mesh with the film.

I have no reason to believe that all of these people are wrong because it has been in the best interest of "some" to ATTEMPT to make me believe what I feel to be the "Most Important Lie" being told during the 43 years of this investigation. THAT LIE, I personally feel, is the successful effort of the conspirators to convince many of you that this one particular type of film, cannot successfully be altered by "ANYONE".

I feel that someone expecting me to believe this is an "offense to me" !

Charlie Black

Charlie,

I think you might have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I definitely do not think that all those witnesses were mistaken. I brought up the examples I did in order to sarcastically ridicule some of the conventional explanations for all that attention centering on the knoll area, all those witnesses reporting that the shots came from there and that the limousine stopped and all those Dallas medical people reporting the huge wound in the back of the head. I guess sometimes my sarcasm isn't as clever as I think it is. Anyway, I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

[Charles Black]

Hello Don

I am sorry for my misinterpretation. Often, actually much too often, as my offsprings will readily state, that I, tho not meaning harm, will often press my arguments farther than needed.

What truly I cannot understand however, and I have tried vey hard, is for intelligent people to believe that successful alteration of 8mm Kodacolor II film is impossible.

When I think of only in the past 25 years, the scientific and technological advances that have been mastered, it is almost unbelievable. Advances such as DNA...the cloning of animals and even human organs....space technology....amazing weaponry...the advances in hidden surveillance...the world wide web...are but the tip of the iceberg.

When I am told that the major stumbling block in the face of 43 years of intensive study by some of what I consider, the worlds intellectually elite, is the belief that film cannot be altered in an undetectable manner BOGGLES MY MIND.

We are sending probes to distant planets and retrieving samples of their composition....and as I mentioned earlier cloning, "CREATING LIFE", and making almost daily, enormous strides in medical technology.....Yet I and you and millions of bright, clear thinking and highly educated people, are expected to believe one of the most preposterously conceived and ridiculous LIES ever attempted, and that it has somewhat successfully been received. The unbelievable lie to me and many, is that successful alteration of this piece of film is beyond our greatest human capability. I wish that EVERYONE would devote a few moments to this fantasy! How can ANY rational person believe this?

It goes absolutely unquestioned that this one nation alone has the most probable capability of destroying all life on this planet...yet we cannot alter film !

I am neither a "rocket scientist" nor a "brain surgeon"....but neither have I been actively campaigning for that incomparable dignity of being the "VILLAGE IDIOT" !

I suppose that the only argument that I might hear is that I am not yet highly enough evolved to begin to comprehend such advanced thinking !

Please forgive my sermonizing, and thanks again for your response.

Charlie Black

[Guest Mark Valenti]

In my opinion, it's not that the Z film couldn't be altered if the best, brightest minds and the most advanced technology was brought into the picture to do so.

It's that there wasn't enough time or opportunity to alter the Z film, and the Muchmore film and the Nix film and the still photos so that they matched each other.

Try it like this:

Say you're on a hit team that wanted JFK dead. You set up the assassins, arrange for their escape, work clandestinely with whomever you must to pull off the crime.

Okay, you've shot a President in full view of the world. BANG! Adrenaline is flowing! People are screaming! Sirens are blaring! Police are everywhere!

Now you have to know, with 100 percent certainty, that you can round up every bit of film taken that day.

That includes film that may have been shot from inside of an office, behind a window, that you couldn't detect.

Because if even ONE SECOND of film escapes Dealey Plaza that discounts your altered film scenario, you're screwed and your entire conspiracy unravels.

So...here you go. You see a woman filming on the street, grab her, take her film! There's another guy on a pedestal! Follow him to the film developers!

Wait - there are two people over there making movies! Grab them! BUT MAKE SURE NOBODY SEES YOU DO IT!!!

Hang on, I saw a soldier filming on the grassy knoll - get an agent up there and threaten his life! Make damn sure he doesn't say anything for at least a decade!!

Did anybody check the School Book Depository? Oh no, you're kidding me - there was a woman filming from up there too?? Track her down and get that film!

And don't forget the professional news photographers! Run after them and make sure they don't develop their pictures before we make sure that they match the altered images we're about to alter on the films we've confiscated!

Hang on, there's a guy over by the Post Office, did we get his film? What about the Presidential aide, what's his name, Powers? Grab his film too!

Oh man, look up there, it's a kid with a movie camera beyond the Triple Underpass, did anybody find out if he was shooting when JFK got hit?? Hurry, get his film and alter it too!

Okay, did we get all the film? I hope so otherwise we're in deep trouble!

Now, let's get these films developed! Get a room and screen them all. We're going to need stop-frame capabilities, we'll need a team of technicians who can do microscopic alterations to the film!!

Now make sure that every single piece of altered film matches every other piece of altered film! And still pictures, don't forget to match the altered films to the still pictures!

IMO, this is the scenario you have to swallow in order to believe that even ONE of the films were altered.

[Kathleen Collins]

Hi, Ron. I don't see the headsnap in that Nix film. I see Jackie's right hand fly up, so it must be obscured.

Kathy

If you can't see JFK's head moving back after the shot, what can I say? Does anyone else see it, or has this stuff just finally made me delusional?

However, Ron, that clip gives me further evidence or belief that President Kennedy was shot front the right front. And I agree with Jack that all the evidence was tampered with over the years. And I wish people who have films or photos of the assassination would come forward with them.

Kathy

[Pat Speer]

As far as I know, I am the only person to try and understand how and why the Parkland witnesses could be wrong.

**********************************

Pat Speer :""When I looked at all the evidence, I saw that the witnesses, the Z-film, and the autopsy photos all complement each other quite nicely. ""

The Government was in charge of....all

The Evidence, so

It would be no surprise that you would find, that your

Witness statements ,

The Zapruder film, and

The Autopsy photos would all compliment each other....?

If that is what you went looking for..

B..

I went looking for the truth. I read Crossfire, High Treason, Best Evidence, The Killing of a President, etc, and found them a bit disjointed. I then read Case Closed and found it quite coherent...but dishonest. I decided to study the evidence from ground up--to look at the earliest reports, to study gun shot wounds in books and articles on wound ballistics, to study human hearing, to study human cognition. It took me several years. Full time. Probably a waste of time.

What I've found since is that the conspiracy community is almost as dogmatic as the single-assassin theorist clique. Just as the lone-nutters keep moving Kennedy's back wound to his neck, no matter the evidence, many conspiracy theorists have this absolute and blinding conviction that all the evidence doesn't add up, or is contradictory, and that this is ALL the proof of conspiracy they need. This allows them to avoid looking at the actual evidence, which is in fact the real proof of conspiracy. What I said in an earlier post is true. As far as I know, I am the only person to study human cognition in relation to this case. Others have studied memory. It's not the same. A Stanford Psychology professor gave me some advice when I first began my research; she told me that the key is not in understanding why a bunch of doctors would remember something incorrectly, but in why they would perceive it incorrectly to begin with. When I stumbled onto studies of the effects of image rotation on facial recognition, I found what I was looking for. It is an accepted fact that looking at an image upside down or sideways has a strongly negative impact on one's ability to perceive relative distance inside the image. It is also a fact that memories can be contagious--that is, that when Clark and Perry began talking about a wound on the back of the head it affected the memories of others--which were specific as to size and nature, but fuzzy about location.

Believing that these doctors were mistaken is certainly a lot more logical than believing that the body or the autopsy photos were brilliantly altered to show conspiracy, and then replaced with comically fraudulent drawings, in which the back wound was moved to support that the back wound connected to the throat wound. I mean, why not just fake the back wound in a location that made sense, right? And why change the interpretation of an autopsy photo from its being the back of the head to the forehead, when all they had to do was fake a new photograph?

The answer, as is clear by the Z-film and the on-the-air statements of Newman and Zapruder before Kennedy's death was even announced, is that a bullet impacted on the top of Kennedy's head by his ear from behind, at the supposed exit. The autopsy photos and x-rays confirm this. There was no explosion out the back of the head. The back of the head wound witnessed at Parkland was the top of the head wound as seen when Kennedy was laying on his back with his feet up in the air.

In short, the grassy knoll head shot is the single-bullet theory of the conspiracy community. It's distracting and discreditied...passed on from generation to generation like a confederate flag waved by some poor fool at Gettysburg.

[Pat Speer]

Hello Pat

Even tho I don't agree almost in any way with your proposals, I don't expect the amount of effort which you have devoted to your study, to be set aside by my "little posting".

But I certainly HOPE that you are wrong ! I would like to think that were I taken to a Trauma Room, that the medical staff would be "Cognizant Enough" to determine where and the general seriousness of my wounds, even if I were hung upside down and slowly spun around. I not only "hope" but I feel that most could adequately do this.

You have certainly in no way even slightly changed my views. Pat, I cannot go thru life thinking A)

that the majority of the world lacks reasonable cognizance and that what I feel is a very obviously altered film, that has only been in the hands of a group conspirators, who had access to the most technologically elite minds in the world; did not alter this film...therefore I should believe that all of the Dealey Plaza witness testimony, on the afternoon of 11/22/63, is wrong due to the acute degree of incognizance of all of them.

Pat, I feel that this is as ridiculous as "any" idea that I have heard !

Charlie Black

Charlie, have you ever read articles on Cognitive Psychology? There have been many studies where a large group of people have been exposed to an event, sometimes a film clip, and then asked what they saw. Their responses are all over the map, and frequently wrong. Sometimes the testers stumble onto patterns in which the witnesses are wrong. From this they gain an understanding of the human mind. One example of a pattern in which witnesses are wrong is that witnesses exposed to a stressful event almost universally over-estimate the length of the event, by an average of 50%. This is one of the reasons we can be confident that the shooting sequence was not as long as recently theorized by Max Holland. It would be extremely unusual for agent after agent to say the sequence lasted 4-6 seconds when it in fact lasted 11. Another example of a memory pattern is that people put under extreme fear for their life tend to remember things less accurately than less fearful bystanders. The Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy were three of the least credible witnesses, and yet the current crop of lone-nuts take their cue from Posner and pore over Connally's words as if they were the Bible.

Another cognitive pattern is that people have trouble reading upside down and sideways, and reading faces upside down and sideways.

[Ron Ecker]

The back of the head wound witnessed at Parkland was the top of the head wound as seen when Kennedy was laying on his back with his feet up in the air.

Clint Hill saw the head wound right after the shots and said that the head "on the right rear side was missing." After the autopsy that night Hill viewed the body and again saw a "wound on the right rear portion of the skull."

Nurse Diane Bowron saw JFK at Parkland while he was still in the limo, and testified that she saw "one large hole" in the "back of his head."

Police Chief Jesse Curry also saw JFK in the limo and wrote in his book that "the back of the President's head was partially blown off."

I'm not going to review all the statements of the witnesses at Bethesda to cite any further observations. I think the point is made with these three witnesses. Hill, Bowron, and Curry were not looking at JFK while he was "laying on his back with his feet up in the air" in Trauma Room One.

Your view that all the Parkland doctors mistook a wound in the top of the head for a wound in the back of the head might have some credibility if there were not other witnesses who saw this wound in the back of the head under different circumstances.