MARY MOORMAN on Radio This Week

[Don Roberdeau]

MARY MOORMAN on Radio This Week

Good Day.... This past week, MARY MOORMAN (now MARY KRAHMER) was on Dallas radio station KRLD discussing the auctioning her 11-22-63 Polaroids.

The dj's played an audio clip of MOORMAN from 11-22-63 being interviewed on radio.

The audio of this week's interview with MOORMAN is available here....

http://podcast.krld.com/krld/390406.mp3

One of the radio dj's, a LNer, asked her some questions about what she heard during the attack, and she also timestamped what she heard with what she did and saw during the attack.

She *remembered* hearing 3 "shots" (my "shots" definition=audible muzzle blasts and/or mechanically suppress-fired bullet bow shockwaves), with her noticing that "her" first 2 *remembered* shots were closer together than the last 2.

I think the following still consistent response of hers is specifically interesting about her timestamping the shots relative to the instant she her snapped her Polaroid #5....

"Well, I stepped up to take the picture and at the instant that I snapped the picture there was a shot, and, I know, I stepped back a few steps, and another shot, and then there was another one just shortly--it was in a matter of seconds--but there were only three"

Does non-Z-film attack sequence films scrutiny reveal if MOORMAN "stepped back" after capturing her Z-315/316 Polaroid #5?

In 1963, and still in 2007, MOORMAN is among a group of several head explosion witnesses, including U.S. Army Ranger & D-Day veteran CHARLES BREHM, standing mere yards to MOORMAN's right, who timestamp *remembering*, at least, one shot after President KENNEDY's head first exploded.

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

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"Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE the President." (my EMPHASIS)

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack, and while he is still standing within Dealey Plaza (11-22-63 "Dallas Times Herald," fifth & final daily edition)

"He was coming down the street and my five-year-old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street, and I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved, and I waved--and the ma--the man----As he--as he was waving back he was--he was----the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat and his wife reached up toward him and he was slumping down and the second shot went off and it just--just knocked him down in the seat. ... Two shots. ... No sir, I did not see the man who did it. I--I----All I--all I did was look in the mans' face when he was shot there and saw that expression on his face and he grabbed himself and slide, and the second one whenever it went----I'm positive it hit him--I hope it didn't--but I'm positive it hit him and he went all the way down in the car, then they speeded up and I didn't know what was going on so I just grabbed the boy and fell on him and hoped that there wasn't a maniac around.

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, recorded within an hour after the attack for tv and radio

(BREHM's 11-22-63 written affidavit statements to the Dallas police have "disappeared" from the Dallas police file)

"When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. Brehm said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed his opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.

BREHM stated he definitely knew that the President had been shot and he recalled having seen blood on the President's face. He also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets."

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, statement to the FBI, 24NOV63

"I saw a piece fly over in the area of the curb where I was standing. .... It seemed to have come left, and back. .... Sir, whatever it was that I saw did fall, both, in that direction, and, over into the curb there."

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, statements during the 1966 assassination documentary film, "Rush to Judgment"

"After the car passed the building coming toward us, I heard a . . . surprising noise, and [the President] reached with both hands up to the side of his throat and kind of stiffened out . . . And when he got down in the area just past me, the second shot hit which damaged, considerably damaged, the top of his head. . . . That car took off in an evasive motion . . . and was just beyond me when a third shot went off. The third shot really frightened me! It had a completely different sound to it because it had really passed me as anybody knows who has been in down under targets in the Army or been shot at like I had been many times. You know when a bullet passes over you, the cracking sound it makes, and that bullet had an absolute crack to it. I do believe that that shot was wild. It didn't hit anybody. I don't think it could have hit anybody. But it was a frightening thing to me because here was one shot that hit him, obviously; here was another shot that destroyed his head, and what was the reason for that third shot? That third shot frightened me more than the other two, and I grabbed the boy and threw him on the ground because I didn't know if we were going to have a 'shoot-'em-up' in this area." ... "I was telling them that there were rifle shots and that they came from up in the corner of the School Book Depository or up in the corner of the building across from it."

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, to Larry Sneed, "No More Silence" (1988)

Edited April 15, 2007 by Don Roberdeau

[Pat Speer]

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day.... There is also an interview by a PHILADELPHIA local news with MARY in "her location" in Dealey Plaza, here....

http://www.nbc10.com/news/11729280/detail.html

(click on the MOORMAN photo for the VIDEO)

....in which she states emphatically....

"it just so happens it was the instant he was hit----and that was the FIRST shot" (my emphasis)

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

for the United States

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"According to Mr Zapruder the position of the assassin was behind Mr Zapruder."

- earliest public statement by ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER of from where he sensed that, at least, one shot was fired from, as documented in Warren Commission Document CD87, a 22NOV63, 9:55 pm note from PRS agent MAXWELL PHILLIPS that accompanied 3 copies of the ZAPRUDER film ("behind" ZAPRUDER's facing direction up to Zf-321 was the north picket fenceline easternmost corner on the north "grassy knoll")

Edited April 15, 2007 by Don Roberdeau

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day Pat.... Absolutely.

My 32+ years, detailed list of 5,539 persons related to pre/during/post assassination events details that there were many close attack witnesses (IIRC, it was 11 or 12 witnesses) who saw the presidents head explode, and, who also stated that there was, at least, one distinctly seperate audible muzzle blast or mechanically suppress fired bullet bow shockwave after the explosion.

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"According to Mr Zapruder the position of the assassin was behind Mr Zapruder."

- earliest public statement by ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER of from where he sensed that, at least, one shot was fired from, as documented in Warren Commission Document CD87, a 22NOV63, 9:55 pm note from PRS agent MAXWELL PHILLIPS that accompanied 3 copies of the ZAPRUDER film ("behind" ZAPRUDER's facing direction up to Zf-321 was the north picket fenceline easternmost corner on the north "grassy knoll")

Edited April 15, 2007 by Don Roberdeau

[Ron Ecker]

there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Are you saying that the last shot was over 5 seconds after the head shot? Wasn't the limo almost to the underpass by then? Which witness(es) heard a shot that late?

[David G. Healy]

Good Day Pat.... Absolutely.

My 32+ years, detailed list of 5,539 persons related to pre/during/post assassination events details that there were many close attack witnesses (IIRC, it was 11 or 12 witnesses) who saw the presidents head explode, and, who also stated that there was, at least, one distinctly seperate audible muzzle blast or mechanically suppress fired bullet bow shockwave after the explosion.

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"According to Mr Zapruder the position of the assassin was behind Mr Zapruder."

- earliest public statement by ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER of from where he sensed that, at least, one shot was fired from, as documented in Warren Commission Document CD87, a 22NOV63, 9:55 pm note from PRS agent MAXWELL PHILLIPS that accompanied 3 copies of the ZAPRUDER film ("behind" ZAPRUDER's facing direction up to Zf-321 was the north picket fenceline easternmost corner on the north "grassy knoll")

Don,

Can you clarify this from your above: "note from PRS agent MAXWELL PHILLIPS that accompanied 3 copies of the ZAPRUDER film", who said 3 copies of the Z-film accompanied anything and to where?

thanks

David Healy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Actually! The first shot was fired some 5.7 to 5.9 seconds prior to the Z313/aka second shot.

Lastly, just to "up" the credibility, one just may (or may not) want to expend the time and effort to research the Dallas Police Dept. testimonies.

There were many witnesses who gave statements and yet were never called to testify before the Warren Commission.

The: "Bang"----------------delay----------------------"Bang,----Bang," statements are quite prevelant there as well.

Guess that this limb which I have been out on, all by my lonesome, is perhaps considerably more solid and sturdy than most have given it credit to be.

[David G. Healy]

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Actually! The first shot was fired some 5.7 to 5.9 seconds prior to the Z313/aka second shot.

Lastly, just to "up" the credibility, one just may (or may not) want to expend the time and effort to research the Dallas Police Dept. testimonies.

There were many witnesses who gave statements and yet were never called to testify before the Warren Commission.

The: "Bang"----------------delay----------------------"Bang,----Bang," statements are quite prevelant there as well.

Guess that this limb which I have been out on, all by my lonesome, is perhaps considerably more solid and sturdy than most have given it credit to be.

you got company....

[Pat Speer]

there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Are you saying that the last shot was over 5 seconds after the head shot? Wasn't the limo almost to the underpass by then? Which witness(es) heard a shot that late?

Ron, I was referring to the Posner scenario swallowed down like pep pills by the media. It holds there were no shots fired between 224 and 313. Those who heard three shots overwhelmingly place the second shot closer to the head shot. Those witnessing the head shot believed it was the second of the three, not the third. The timing of the third shot is just before Jackie starts to climb out of the car The SS agents, no doubt pressured to say the head shot was the third shot, nevertheless refused to do so, and instead said incredibly vague things such as "I couldn't tell if the second or third shot hit Kennedy in the head." Well, even something this vague is proof that Posner's theory is full of it. Is it remotely possible that Kinney and Roberts, sitting just behind Kennedy, would forget a five second gap building up to the head shot? I say NO.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Are you saying that the last shot was over 5 seconds after the head shot? Wasn't the limo almost to the underpass by then? Which witness(es) heard a shot that late?

Ron, I was referring to the Posner scenario swallowed down like pep pills by the media. It holds there were no shots fired between 224 and 313. Those who heard three shots overwhelmingly place the second shot closer to the head shot. Those witnessing the head shot believed it was the second of the three, not the third. The timing of the third shot is just before Jackie starts to climb out of the car The SS agents, no doubt pressured to say the head shot was the third shot, nevertheless refused to do so, and instead said incredibly vague things such as "I couldn't tell if the second or third shot hit Kennedy in the head." Well, even something this vague is proof that Posner's theory is full of it. Is it remotely possible that Kinney and Roberts, sitting just behind Kennedy, would forget a five second gap building up to the head shot? I say NO.

The SS agents, no doubt pressured to say the head shot was the third shot

Since the "third shot" (which impact was clearly observed by James Altgens) was also a "head shot", one need not be "pressured" in order to tell the factual truth that the third shot struck JFK in the head. One merely needs to omit the wording "also".

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Not unlike many things, one can tell the facts and truths and still not be believed.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Don, last year I went through the eyewitnesses, one by one, and compared their positions in the photos and films to what they said, and it is as clear as DAY that there was at least one shot fired after the head shot. In the Muchmore headshot there are seven eyewitnesses. The two with Hudson have never been identified. Beverly Oliver didn't come forward for several years. The other 4--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, and Hudson--ALL said there was a shot after the head shot. To me that is convincing proof there was a shot after the headshot and UNDENIABLE proof that the shooting did not occur as proposed by the Posnerites, with the closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

closest shot to the head shot coming 5 seconds BEFORE the head shot.

Actually! The first shot was fired some 5.7 to 5.9 seconds prior to the Z313/aka second shot.

Lastly, just to "up" the credibility, one just may (or may not) want to expend the time and effort to research the Dallas Police Dept. testimonies.

There were many witnesses who gave statements and yet were never called to testify before the Warren Commission.

The: "Bang"----------------delay----------------------"Bang,----Bang," statements are quite prevelant there as well.

Guess that this limb which I have been out on, all by my lonesome, is perhaps considerably more solid and sturdy than most have given it credit to be.

you got company....

you got company

Although it has been quite "lonely" out here all by myself, I would still prefer that it be "company" of the female gender.

Terry! You good-looking ex-Bunny, how about taking Pat's place out here on this portion of the limb.

[Trygve V. Jensen]

As previously posted by Thomas Purvis.

I apologize for diverting this excellent thread even further. Just wished to 'repost' this, for those who have not seen it yet. The Secret Service conducted a reenactment/survey, in the first days of December 1963. What actually made them use the ever confusing 'station points', escapes me. I got the impression though, that the data was conducted rather precisely. Anyhow, the picture shows where the Lincoln would have been at the time of 'the 3rd shot". As seen at the bottom of the photo, which by the way, is dated December 5th. Would this have been taken with the misplacing of the rifle-elevation? As in that the photo, do not accurately depict what the sniper would have seen through the scope?

Anyway, I always found it troubling that their placement of the third shot, did not to me seem to be in accordance with Z313. I am not sure I recall the the exact stationing numbers, as I am sure Mr. Purvis do, but my memory tells me that their placement of the third shot, was actually approx. 25-35 feet further down the street, than Z313. Measuring from a point, Z313 was assigned 'stationing number' 4+65.3 , and 'the 3rd shot' would be at 4+96.0

As also mentioned here in this topic, several eye/earwitnesses - statements would indicate a shot after Z313. Amongst them J. Altgens, and Mr. Hudson across the street from Altgens.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

As previously posted by Thomas Purvis.

I apologize for diverting this excellent thread even further. Just wished to 'repost' this, for those who have not seen it yet. The Secret Service conducted a reenactment/survey, in the first days of December 1963. What actually made them use the ever confusing 'station points', escapes me. I got the impression though, that the data was conducted rather precisely. Anyhow, the picture shows where the Lincoln would have been at the time of 'the 3rd shot". As seen at the bottom of the photo, which by the way, is dated December 5th. Would this have been taken with the misplacing of the rifle-elevation? As in that the photo, do not accurately depict what the sniper would have seen through the scope?

Anyway, I always found it troubling that their placement of the third shot, did not to me seem to be in accordance with Z313. I am not sure I recall the the exact stationing numbers, as I am sure Mr. Purvis do, but my memory tells me that their placement of the third shot, was actually approx. 25-35 feet further down the street, than Z313. Measuring from a point, Z313 was assigned 'stationing number' 4+65.3 , and 'the 3rd shot' would be at 4+96.0

As also mentioned here in this topic, several eye/earwitnesses - statements would indicate a shot after Z313. Amongst them J. Altgens, and Mr. Hudson across the street from Altgens.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Third Shot:--------------4+96

(actually, from Mr. West's survey notes, it is listed as stationing 4+95)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313:------------------4+65.3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WC established "Point A" as there control/beginning station for Mr. West to conduct his survey work for the WC.

Little could they know that Mr. West would thereafter transfer all WC measurements to the established survey stationing which he had established during the SS true survey work done in Dealy Plaza.

Had it not been for this oversight, we would have had no means by which to have accurately determined exactly where 4+96 on the SS Survey work was, in relationship to the WC work which initially took all measurements from "Point A", as well as other points on the curb of Elm St.

Not unlike the falsification of/alteration to, the survey data of Mr. West during the WC work, mistakes were made.

Those who expend their time searching for mythological multiple assassins, are not likely to either find or understand the significance of the WC's many mistakes.

P.S. Hang in there Trygve! You already understand more about the facts of the assassination than does 99% of those others who like to call themselves "researchers".

[Thomas H. Purvis]

As previously posted by Thomas Purvis.

I apologize for diverting this excellent thread even further. Just wished to 'repost' this, for those who have not seen it yet. The Secret Service conducted a reenactment/survey, in the first days of December 1963. What actually made them use the ever confusing 'station points', escapes me. I got the impression though, that the data was conducted rather precisely. Anyhow, the picture shows where the Lincoln would have been at the time of 'the 3rd shot". As seen at the bottom of the photo, which by the way, is dated December 5th. Would this have been taken with the misplacing of the rifle-elevation? As in that the photo, do not accurately depict what the sniper would have seen through the scope?

Anyway, I always found it troubling that their placement of the third shot, did not to me seem to be in accordance with Z313. I am not sure I recall the the exact stationing numbers, as I am sure Mr. Purvis do, but my memory tells me that their placement of the third shot, was actually approx. 25-35 feet further down the street, than Z313. Measuring from a point, Z313 was assigned 'stationing number' 4+65.3 , and 'the 3rd shot' would be at 4+96.0

As also mentioned here in this topic, several eye/earwitnesses - statements would indicate a shot after Z313. Amongst them J. Altgens, and Mr. Hudson across the street from Altgens.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Third Shot:--------------4+96

(actually, from Mr. West's survey notes, it is listed as stationing 4+95)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313:------------------4+65.3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WC established "Point A" as there control/beginning station for Mr. West to conduct his survey work for the WC.

Little could they know that Mr. West would thereafter transfer all WC measurements to the established survey stationing which he had established during the SS true survey work done in Dealy Plaza.

Had it not been for this oversight, we would have had no means by which to have accurately determined exactly where 4+96 on the SS Survey work was, in relationship to the WC work which initially took all measurements from "Point A", as well as other points on the curb of Elm St.

Not unlike the falsification of/alteration to, the survey data of Mr. West during the WC work, mistakes were made.

Those who expend their time searching for mythological multiple assassins, are not likely to either find or understand the significance of the WC's many mistakes.

P.S. Hang in there Trygve! You already understand more about the facts of the assassination than does 99% of those others who like to call themselves "researchers".

The below attachment should have come through with the above posting!