Oh no, not Lucien Sarti again

[Myra Bronstein]

I tend to believe that Hunt is telling the truth except the part about him being invited to participate and turning it down. He was one of the assigned. He would be an understandable participant, working in the new and ominously named Domestic Operations Division, which was doing jobs, Hunt once claimed, that "no one else wanted." A perhaps wry choice of words, since in this case he was doing a job that seemingly everybody wanted. And there is some physical evidence of his participation, namely a photograph of whom I believe to be Hunt crossing Elm Street. And there are things that make little sense if he did not participate. Why did he have his kids lie and say he was home on 11/22/63? Why did he leave the whole year of 1963 out of his autobiography Undercover? How come not even the Rockefeller Commission could find out where he was on 11/22/63 (not that it may have tried really hard to find out)? And the man thought he was dying when he made this tape for his son. He just couldn't bring himself to say that he was more than a "benchwarmer."

I know the photo and the figure you mean. It's a suspicious figure to say the least.

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

[Ron Ecker]

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

No, I think that all participants on Hunt's level were smart enough and planned well enough ahead not to get themselves arrested at the scene like common tramps.

[Myra Bronstein]

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

No, I think that all participants on Hunt's level were smart enough and planned well enough ahead not to get themselves arrested at the scene like common tramps.

Then, do you believe the third tramp was Chauncy Holt?

[Thomas Graves]

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

No, I think that all participants on Hunt's level were smart enough and planned well enough ahead not to get themselves arrested at the scene like common tramps.

Then, do you believe the third tramp was Chauncy Holt?

______________________

My-ra,

Instead of trying to put words in Ron's mouth, why don't you just ask him who he thinks the third tramp was? Hmm?

Yours,

--Thomas

______________________

[Thomas Graves]

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

No, I think that all participants on Hunt's level were smart enough and planned well enough ahead not to get themselves arrested at the scene like common tramps.

_______________

Ron,

I don't know if the third tramp was Hunt or Holt or some loser from Bumfu*k Idaho, but I think your argument about the supposed superior intelligence (with a capital "I") of Hunt and participants... on his level doesn't hold water. After all, if Hunt had been so F*****g smart, then how did he manage to get implicated in the Watergate break in? Hmmm? Because he wanted to be caught? Because he was "set up?" Yeah, right. "Oh, my God, I forgot that he wrote down my address in his widdle black address book!!... )

--Thomas

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Edited May 6, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Ron Ecker]

I think the third tramp was probably a guy named Gus Abrams. He did look enough like Hunt, though, that Ed Lansdale had to go get a close look.

if Hunt had been so F*****g smart, then how did he manage to get implicated in the Watergate break in? Hmmm? Because he wanted to be caught? Because he was "set up?"

Yes, he was set up by James McCord. Unless we're supposed to believe that it was McCord who was not very smart, indeed abysmally stupid.

[Myra Bronstein]

So you don't think he was the third tramp Ron?

No, I think that all participants on Hunt's level were smart enough and planned well enough ahead not to get themselves arrested at the scene like common tramps.

Then, do you believe the third tramp was Chauncy Holt?

______________________

My-ra,

Instead of trying to put words in Ron's mouth, why don't you just ask him who he thinks the third tramp was? Hmm?

Yours,

--Thomas

______________________

Thomas,

Don't try to tell me how to word things.

You should be focusing on composing your own posts so the research community can continue to benefit from such gems as these:

"Bump" --May 1 2007

"Bump-a-ruskie" --May 1 2007

"bump-a roo...." May 1 2007

Ooo, I can hardly wait for your book.

[Myra Bronstein]

I think the third tramp was probably a guy named Gus Abrams. He did look enough like Hunt, though, that Ed Lansdale had to go get a close look.

if Hunt had been so F*****g smart, then how did he manage to get implicated in the Watergate break in? Hmmm? Because he wanted to be caught? Because he was "set up?"

Yes, he was set up by James McCord. Unless we're supposed to believe that it was McCord who was not very smart, indeed abysmally stupid.

Ron, Do you have an opinion on what Watergate was essentially about?

[Dixie Dea]

This is just some thoughts I have had lately. If Hunt was actually in Dallas, perhaps in disguise as the so-called tramp or if the man with the overcoat walking across Elm Street, perhaps he was lured there in a set-up, to frame him. I was thinking that he once, confirmed that would be a possibility.

There are many who believe that some were lured there under different pretexts, such as a false assassination attempt, as some sort of a warning to JFK. But then, none of these culprits knew what was actually going to happen. Some also believe they were told it was Gov John Connally that was going to be hit and not JFK.

Hunt had several differnt alibis as to where he was that day. Yet, apparently he was not at any of those places! This is only my opinion, but I do believe that if he was actually in Dallas that day in some sanctioned capacity, a well established alibi would have been provided for him. Obviously, this was not done, which makes me feel that he was set up as a scapegoat. I just can't see him being anyplace in that state, if he knew ahead, what was going to happen.

_____

Dixie

[Kathleen Collins]

E. Howard Hunt's "confession" via his son includes the info that a Corsican gunman fired the fatal shot from the grassy knoll. So we're back to the Lucien Sarti story. Does this impugn the credibility of Hunt's confession, or does it lend credibility to the Sarti tale?

I have come to doubt that the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll (given the angle, and the better head-on shot from the south), and if Hunt had told of a south-knoll gunman, instead of the Corsican behind the fence, that would have settled it for me.

As it is, I thought that the French connection story had been more or less discredited. Would anyone familiar with it (and anyone else) care to comment?

Having read several books on Sarti and the Corsican Heroin Trade convinced me that it was at least plausible that he was involved in the JFK affair. Hunt's mentioning Cord Meyer, Morales and Phiillips also appears to be a good fit based on my thinking that many of the best assassination books I've read over the years had parts of the story correct. I'd enjoy hearing the opinions of Fonzi, Hancock and a few others as to their take on Hunt's confession.

I listened to the excerpt, which is about six or seven minutes out of twenty and it's pretty convincing for me. I'd like to hear the rest of it.

Craig Roberts, an expert on snipers and shooting, expressed his opinion in the past that he felt the kill shot was a tangential shot from the front/side, which was Badgeman's location. After viewing the headshot in slowmotion dozens or more times I tend to agree. And if one can get a really clear print of Badgeman and compare it to the photo of Lucien Sarti there appear to me to be obvious facial similarities, such as ear, eye and hairline shape.

Here's badgeman whom I believe was a Dallas cop or dressed like one of them. Also, I read on another forum the opinion that badgeman was Officer Tippit. I don't know who posted this. I think this is from another forum, but here's a colorized version of badgeman.

Kathy

Edited May 5, 2007 by Kathleen Collins

[Richard J. Smith]

James, you raise interesting points. Regarding Laos and sharpshooters, are you referring to information of a discussion from a year or two ago, regarding "Pakse Base man"? I vaguely recall this and the look-a-like in Dealy plaza. One of the active participants in this discussion was Al Carrier, who seemed to be pretty confident that the "Pakse base man" he researched had ties to Dealy plaza and to 11/22/63. I'm going off memory here so it may be a bit off. Sorry. I'll look for that thread, and if I find it, I'll post a link on this one.

If the Corsican connection and the Pakse base man tie in with credible evidence, this could be interesting. One other related issue I'd like to know more about, is the person stopped at the knoll by Officer Smith, who presented Secret Service (or other government LE) credentials, who had "dirty fingernails". In other words, in retrospect Smith should had arrested this man for further questioning, but didn't. The word "mechanic" comes to mind of this fellow with the dirty fingernails, and I'm not talking about someone who fixes cars.

From a documentary I saw some time ago, I recall Officer Smith talking about this incident, he seemed to be "kicking himself" because he let the fellow go.

Any comments James or anyone else?

Al didn't think "Pakse Base Man" was the guy on the lamppost at Main and Houston, although we were in agreement that members of Team 5 from Laos, a secret shooting team often utilized by CIA, was involved. "Pakse Base Man" was a misnomer however, since that photo of him was taken at Long Tieng, Laos. I am still convinced that the guy on the lampost and the CIA "case officer" pictured at Long Tieng were one and the same. I was never able to put a name on him, although I tried for over 2 years. None of the Ravens I contacted would talk. IMO the head shot was fired from the South Knoll parking lot, by a Team 5 member. I believe the other shooters were Cuban exiles.

As for CIA not using military types as shooters, think again. These guys have worked together since the late 50's in Laos, through Vietnam, Central America, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places around the world. The US Delta Force is very closely associated with the intel community, as are other secretive commando types.

RJS

[James Richards]

I agree that expendable military snipers make more sense than importing a Corsican gunman. How was he supposed to be better? And Sarti lived on into the 1970s, I believe, dying in some shootout in Mexico.

You can read the story about Sarti here:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsarti.htm

The previously mentioned Nelson Gross was behind a cooperative effort involving U.S. and French police, plus several anti-narcotics agencies from around the world. Their target was the 'Latin American Connection' which was responsible for about a third of heroin consumed in the United States.

In October of 1972 and as a result of this effort -

Paul Karamian was extradicted to the United States where he was awaiting trial.

Lucien Sarti who was wanted in France on murder charges was killed in a shootout with police in Mexico.

Jean Paul Angeletti, also wanted in France on murder charges, was extradicted to France to face those charges.

Renzo Rogal who was wanted by Italian police was extradicted to Italy.

Joseph Serini was arrested in Venezuela with 35 pounds of heroin.

Francis Chiappi, an alleged murderer, and 32 traffickers were arrested in Argentina and 99 pounds of heroin was confiscated.

Christian David who was wanted on murder charges, was arrested in Rio De Janeiro when 60 kilograms of heroin was seized on a boat.

August Ricord, leader of the network was arrested in Paraguay and extradicted to New York.

As for Nelson Gross, he was murdered in 1997. Dallas resident Lynne Feldman worked on Gross' personal staff and would be someone worth interviewing regarding what the Lucien Sarti file contained.

FWIW.

James

[Thomas Graves]

I think the third tramp was probably a guy named Gus Abrams. He did look enough like Hunt, though, that Ed Lansdale had to go get a close look.

if Hunt had been so F*****g smart, then how did he manage to get implicated in the Watergate break in? Hmmm? Because he wanted to be caught? Because he was "set up?"

Yes, he was set up by James McCord. Unless we're supposed to believe that it was McCord who was not very smart, indeed abysmally stupid.

____________________________________

So, if Hunt, the seasoned CIA operative and officer, really was naive or stupid enough to let himself get "set up" by McCord in the Watergate thing, he also must have been sufficiently naive or stupid to allow himself to be manipulated into being in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, as either the "old tramp" or as the guy wearing the fedora and the trench coat (with a mysterious bulge under it), crossing Elm Street a short time after the assassination, wouldn't he? I'm also sure that Hunt wanted to be there to witness "the big event."

(I mean, if you hated JFK's guts and were privy to the fact that the hit was gonna go down, wouldn't you want to be "there" to witness it, especially if you could play some sort of low-risk "support role?")

Reminds me of another really bright but occasionally stupid guy by the name of David Ferrie who naively or stupidly lent LHO his library card. doh

--Thomas

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Edited May 6, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Ron Ecker]

he also must have been sufficiently naive or stupid to allow himself to be manipulated into being in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, as either the "old tramp" or as the guy wearing the fedora and the trench coat

If Hunt was the tramp, did he have most of his ears amputated as part of his clever disguise? Or are we back to the "all the films and photos have been altered" business?

If Hunt is the guy in the trench coat (which I tend to believe), how was that a setup? Because someone noticed some 40 years later in a photo that it looks like Hunt?

Reminds me of another really bright but occasionally stupid guy by the name of David Ferrie who naively or stupidly lent LHO his library card.

That story is like the Murchison party. It didn't happen.

[Thomas Graves]

James,

IMO, Sarti was disinformation with no connection to Laos. Same with the other Corsicans even though it seems Mertz/Souetre/Roux was in Dallas.

James

This has intrigued me from the first time I saw it.

The man circled on the right supposedly is Jean Rene Souetre.

The picture on the left is cropped from one of the evidence documents ( I don't remember if it was the Warren Hearings, or First Day Evidence or what) of a picture of the alleged assassination rifle. Leaning on the wall behind the rifle is what appears to be a police artist sketch.

I think the two pictures are remarkably similar.

I also think that someone in the DPD was trying to tell us something.

Steve Thomas

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Steve,

I think the sketch (in your post #35) looks a lot like Gordon Novel.

FWIW,

--Thomas

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Edited May 6, 2007 by Thomas Graves