Was JFK really waving?

[David Andrews]

Triplicate post - see below - very sorry.

Edited October 26, 2010 by David Andrews

[David Andrews]

Was Bob H.'s "first shot" an attempt by the shooting team to do the "sensible thing," the supposed absence of which we've all wondered over?

Was it an attempt to place the possible kill shot right under "Oswald's window" (though it was not fired from there)? Is the "gap" in firing between Bob H's "first shot" and the wounding at the Stemmons sign put in to avoid later argument that the tree was in Oswald's way?* It's possible with radio-coordinated firing and useful yellow curb markings. Is the dark-complected man waving to indicate that the last possible detente in the most covert version of the plot - the version not involving a possibly obvious frontal head shot - has been reached, but without success?

Speculation about why Oswald did not fire on Kennedy as he approached down Houston may be resolved by considering the potential need to balance the goals of: achieving the best incrimination of the patsy;** beginning the firing at a place in the crossfire zone where the limo had no option but to continue down Elm; and keeping the frontal gunfire as minimal as possible. After the Stemmons sign was reached - a window of optimum Oswald-incriminating firing is past, limited by that obscuring tree - the concern over an obvious frontal shot was no longer viable.***

*Others may counter that there is no gap.

**With medical resources standing by to make the wound(s) agree with the sixth-floor window trajectory.

***This, of course, does not mean that firing from the rear ceased once the Stemmons sign was passed.

Edited October 26, 2010 by David Andrews

[Bill Miller]

Yes, but I think we see more than enough to confirm that he was reacting very strangely and considering the situation at the time, it's hard to imagine that being caused by anything other than a gunshot.

And since he fell to his left, it would seem that he was struck by something from his right, so it would seem likely that the area where his hand was at 133 could have been where he was hit.

Of course, there's no way to prove any of that. There's not enough detail in the Zfilm at that point, but doesn't it make sense that he would move his hand to wherever he was struck, perhaps to check to see if there was any blood?

Anyway, whatever he was doing, he sure as hell wasn't cheerfully waving at the crowd.

I wish you (Bob) would stop saying 'we' as if you speak for the rest of us. You take these trivial meaningless things and try to make more out of them than what they are. What witness said that a shot hit the pavement when JFK was in the intersection of Elm and Houston ... ???????? The only spark off the street that I recall reading about came once the limo had completed the turn and was moving down Elm Street.

In the Betzner photo there are women standing along the top of the street who JFK passed that had been waving to him ... one had raised her newspaper as if to jester a 'hi' to the President. The people in the background in the Towner film are moving very fast through JFK's field of view because of the turning of the limo. I think you are making too much out of nothing.

Bill

[David Andrews]

Duncan - something happened during the turn that was snipped (or "burnt") out of the Towner film, and omitted entire from Zapruder.

It may have been Kennedy reacting to the famed "short turn," potentially embarrassing to an already criticized Secret Service. People might see Kennedy lurch in his seat from the abrupt turn motion, right "under the assassin's window."

But should we look at the Towner film again to see if the "short turn" is not a cover fiction for some other disturbance that might have been even more obvious in an unedited Zapruder? Did anyone in the limo (aside from Greer) complain about the turn? Does the fabled turn look alarming to the spectators or anyone besides Kennedy? If not, we have to consider other scenarios.

Bob has alerted us to important things missing in Zapruder that have to be researched from other films, other experiences of the motorcade, other possibilities. I'm not sure that a open-and-close left-hand wave made by JFK while the limo proceeded without trouble is strictly comparable to a gesture made during the complex motions and duration of the turn. And comparison of Kennedy's two right-hand hair brushings - in Towner before the "aborted wave," and at Z-133 - has to be discussed if we seek cues to what's going on, and what's missing in the films.

Edited October 26, 2010 by David Andrews

[Robert Harris]

Yes, but I think we see more than enough to confirm that he was reacting very strangely and considering the situation at the time, it's hard to imagine that being caused by anything other than a gunshot.

And since he fell to his left, it would seem that he was struck by something from his right, so it would seem likely that the area where his hand was at 133 could have been where he was hit.

Of course, there's no way to prove any of that. There's not enough detail in the Zfilm at that point, but doesn't it make sense that he would move his hand to wherever he was struck, perhaps to check to see if there was any blood?

Anyway, whatever he was doing, he sure as hell wasn't cheerfully waving at the crowd.

I wish you (Bob) would stop saying 'we' as if you speak for the rest of us. You take these trivial meaningless things and try to make more out of them than what they are. What witness said that a shot hit the pavement when JFK was in the intersection of Elm and Houston ... ???????? The only spark off the street that I recall reading about came once the limo had completed the turn and was moving down Elm Street.

In the Betzner photo there are women standing along the top of the street who JFK passed that had been waving to him ... one had raised her newspaper as if to jester a 'hi' to the President. The people in the background in the Towner film are moving very fast through JFK's field of view because of the turning of the limo. I think you are making too much out of nothing.

Bill

I'm sorry Bill. By "we" I am referring to both people who acknowledge what they see and those who pretend otherwise.

And yes! People in the crowd did indeed wave at the President - another brilliant insight on your part!

[Robert Harris]

Duncan - something happened during the turn that was snipped (or "burnt") out of the Towner film, and omitted entire from Zapruder.

It may have been Kennedy reacting to the famed "short turn," potentially embarrassing to an already criticized Secret Service. People might see Kennedy lurch in his seat from the abrupt turn motion, right "under the assassin's window."

But should we look at the Towner film again to see if the "short turn" is not a cover fiction for some other disturbance that might have been even more obvious in an unedited Zapruder? Did anyone in the limo (aside from Greer) complain about the turn? Does the fabled turn look alarming to the spectators or anyone besides Kennedy? If not, we have to consider other scenarios.

Bob has alerted us to important things missing in Zapruder that have to be researched from other films, other experiences of the motorcade, other possibilities. I'm not sure that a open-and-close left-hand wave made by JFK while the limo proceeded without trouble is strictly comparable to a gesture made during the complex motions and duration of the turn. And comparison of Kennedy's two right-hand hair brushings - in Towner before the "aborted wave," and at Z-133 - has to be discussed if we seek cues to what's going on, and what's missing in the films.

Duncan and Bill are my newly acquired shadows. They follow me around from thread to thread attacking pretty much anything and everything I say and they do so without even the faintest concern for integrity or honesty. Duncan managed to find a horribly blurry copy of the Altgens photo and then drew in a picture of some boxes, apparently thinking that someone might actually believe they were real.

He also likes to post pictures of cartoon characters and then tell us that they agree with him. Duncan's is one of the saddest cases of arrested development I have ever seen. He appears to remain locked into his pre-adolescent years when he was bullied by the other children who made fun of him because he was a little slower than them.

Bill is not that complicated. He just runs like hell from every issue that is even remotely significant.

I am told that shortly after I was born, my mother's friends urged her to take her newborn son to a local gypsy who was thought to have psychic powers, and ask her for a blessing. She did but the gypsy charged for her services and my family was poor back then. Sadly, mom couldn't afford the price of a "wealth" or "good looks" blessing, but the gypsy told her not to worry. She was having a sale that day and mom could purchase one very special blessing for just a single dollar. She happily paid the dollar and the gypsy sat at a table with us, going into a deep trance and then in a voice that mom was sure, came from another world, she uttered the magical words, "May all Robert's enemies be incredibly stupid!".

I doubt that the gypsy is still alive today but if she was I sure would like to give her a big hug

Edited October 26, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

"You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life"

That statement was about JFK pulling his hand down and balling it into a fist and then falling to his left. Why are you citing me out of context and trying to make it appear that I was talking about his hair???

Is there some rule you have to follow Duncan, which prohibits you from making even a single accurate and honest statement?

[Bill Miller]

Are you severely cognitively impaired? I haven't mentioned his hair once.

Why don't you go take a nap Bob, then when you wake and get a couple of strong coffee's down your neck, you might, and that's a very big might, be able to make a sensible reply, whereby you make it clear to the whole forum, that you are understanding what people post before you respond with such hallucinatory claptrap.

The guy is a waste of time, Duncan. I asked that he cite the witness who said a shot sparked the street when the limo entered and passed through the intersection of Houston and Elm ... he still hasn't done it. He instead talks nutty stuff about Gypsies and evades the question, which I thought was a fair one seeing how his memory was so poor about the Life Magazine Interview with the Connally's that he obviously knew nothing about despite him claiming he remembered it well enough not to have to look at it again to be sure he was correct.

He then says no one is answering his questions and yet when they are answered ... like some sort of Baghdad Bob he denies seeing them. Now he implements his old modus-operandi by saying no one will ever find another film of JFK raising his hand to wave and dropping it as he passes by onlookers as if he is assuring us that he has seen every film of the President riding through crowds that there is.

And Robert ... no one is shadowing you, but rather posting to things that we know about and have opinions on. It's not our fault that you offer up so many off-the-wall poorly thought out claims based on poor observations on your part. Here is one for you to support your current position on this ... Jackie is smiling along with the crowds because everyone is happy that the missed shot that hit the street and sent asphalt flying up at JFK's head didn't hurt the President. Now all I need is a Youtube posting of the clip and I can do what you do - HOORAY!!!

Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

And there's more.

Credit Mark Valenti.

Here it is. Start at 4:50.

JFK does that thing with his hand - the thing that nobody in the history of the entire world has ever seen him do, not on that day or any day before that - according to Robert Harris.

He raises his hand - and then lets it drop without waving or touching his hair.

In fact - in the scene prior to this one, at around 4:42, JFK adjusts himself in his seat and then resumes his normal seated position. The very movement that Harris claims is JFK ducking in front of the Dal-Tex building.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8440302925206489846

What!! JFK dropped his hand after pushing the hair back out of his face???

You mean he didn't hold it up in the air all day???

OHMIGOD, nothing gets past you, does it Duncan :D

So, you think he was doing the same thing in the Towner film, is that correct??

I'm sure everyone appreciates you telling them what they are seeing Duncan, but my thinking is that most people are a helluva lot more capable of figuring this out than you are. I suggest we let them make their own decision. Perhaps some folks would like to compare your video with the Towner film and decide for themselves if JFK was doing the same thing:

It might also be helpful to study JFK's face in a photo taken by Tina's father at the same instant that she was filming his reactions and compare that with his face in Duncan's video.

[Robert Harris]

"He then says no one is answering his questions and yet when they are answered ... like some sort of Baghdad Bob he denies seeing them."

Bill, would you like to review the questions so that you can prove you are not the LSOS that you have actually been?

Would you like me to cite them all together or one at a time??

[Robert Harris]

You are correct, Bill. Debating with Bob "Scissorhands" Harris is like talking to a dead tree.

For my part, I have shown him more than enough video evidence which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his "You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life" is simply not true, and that his research ability consists of jumping to false and silly conclusions by not cross referencing materials and joining the dots.

Duncan MacRae

LOL!! Duncan you are pathetic. If you think JFK brushing the hair out of his face was the same as his reactions in the Towner film then you are either on heavy drugs or you have one VERY serious problem with integrity.

And why is it that every time I suggest that people make their own call on this, you feel compelled to butt in and tell everyone what they are supposed be seeing??

[Robert Harris]

You are correct, Bill. Debating with Bob "Scissorhands" Harris is like talking to a dead tree.

For my part, I have shown him more than enough video evidence which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his "You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life" is simply not true, and that his research ability consists of jumping to false and silly conclusions by not cross referencing materials and joining the dots.

Duncan MacRae

BTW, is that the third or the fourth time you have told us that, today?

What I think you fail to realize is that the people you are pitching are actually going to look at those videos. I wonder if you understand how bad that is making you look Duncan?

You need to stick with images that you can alter and draw in the things you want people to see. You can't do that with the Towner film Duncan, though I wouldn't be surprised if you tried

Edited October 26, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

Duncan - something happened during the turn that was snipped (or "burnt") out of the Towner film, and omitted entire from Zapruder.

It may have been Kennedy reacting to the famed "short turn," potentially embarrassing to an already criticized Secret Service. People might see Kennedy lurch in his seat from the abrupt turn motion, right "under the assassin's window."

But should we look at the Towner film again to see if the "short turn" is not a cover fiction for some other disturbance that might have been even more obvious in an unedited Zapruder? Did anyone in the limo (aside from Greer) complain about the turn? Does the fabled turn look alarming to the spectators or anyone besides Kennedy? If not, we have to consider other scenarios.

Bob has alerted us to important things missing in Zapruder that have to be researched from other films, other experiences of the motorcade, other possibilities. I'm not sure that a open-and-close left-hand wave made by JFK while the limo proceeded without trouble is strictly comparable to a gesture made during the complex motions and duration of the turn. And comparison of Kennedy's two right-hand hair brushings - in Towner before the "aborted wave," and at Z-133 - has to be discussed if we seek cues to what's going on, and what's missing in the films.

I try very hard to give the feds the benefit of the doubt whenever possible although the track record of Hoover's FBI in this case makes that extremely hard to do. But as I stated in my first presentation on this issue, it may be that the damage was not deliberate. Since they didn't have Quicktime back in those days, the easiest way to study a film was to stop the projector and look at individual frames. But if you did that for more than a few seconds, the projector lamp would burn the film, which appears to be what happened.

It boggles the mind however to think that in a case of this magnitude, the FBI could be so incredibly negligent that they would study a film that way before they made a copy of it and without taking precautions to prevent such a thing. We might expect that from the Mayberry PD but the FBI is supposed to know what they are doing. And THAT I think is the best reason to be suspicious. These guys were supposed to be the best cops on the planet. I have a really hard time believing that they were so stupid and incompetent that they would do something like that by accident.

[Dean Hagerman]

Quote: Bob Harris

"You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life"

More Harris fiction debunked.

Perfect debunking of another rediculous Harris theory

Good stuff Duncan

[Bill Miller]

Perfect debunking of another rediculous Harris theory

Good stuff Duncan

Youtube has lots of similar videos posted by people who say things as factual when they are indeed not factual.

Bill

Edited October 27, 2010 by Bill Miller