Was There a Set-up Distinct from the Cover-up?

[Thomas Graves]

Bill Simpich,

Thanks.

[1] I don't have knowledge of the mole hunt, so I'll defer to your knowledge. FWIW, I've always believed the Oswald impersonations in M.C. were part of some CIA operation unconnected to the JFK assassination. It has always seemed to me the attempt to implicate Oswald post-assassination in what were clearly impersonations was handled clumsily and was merely a weak attempt to frame Marina's husband. I distinguish the frame from any set-up.

[2] The fact Oswald got the position at the TSBD when he did and how he did merits close consideration. I agree that Ruth Paine's actions in this regard are consistent with her helping to set up Oswald.

[3] The Oswald sightings at the Sportsdrome are significant IMO only because Marina's husband was killed on November 24 and never went to trial. They serve, not particularly well, as part of the frame job. I think a prosecutor would be loath to try to introduce these sightings into evidence. Far too many unknowns.

[4] The radio calls IMO, to the extent they were part of an attempt to draw attention to Oswald, were part of the frame job.

When I think of a possible set-up, I ask whether there are indications someone other than Oswald was pulling Oswald's strings. Oswald's getting the job at the TSBD is the major occurrence pre-assassination, I believe, that looks as if it was managed by a third party to set up Oswald as patsy.

Dear Jon,

The problem is, although the physical description of the assassin (5'10", 165 lbs, 30-years-oldish) in those radio calls may have been intended to be part of the frame job, it was an inaccurate description of the 24-year old, 5'9", 131-pounds-at-autopsy Oswald, and as such could not have been expected to lead to the arrest of Oswald. So either Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer was inadvertently given old "marked card" information on Oswald / Webster, or somebody really did see the 30-year-old, 5'10", 165 lb. assassin (not Oswald) as he was running away from the TSBD.

The description of the assassin in the radio calls would not, in-and-of-themselves, have led to the apprehension of Oswald, IMHO.

The Tippit murder was required, as was Johnny Brewer's alleged witnessing of Oswald's sneaking into the Texas Theater.

It's interesting that Julia Postal burst into tears several years after the assassination when asked whether or not she had sold a ticket to Oswald. I believe that she had. After all, even if Oswald was the assassin, why would he want to draw attention to himself by sneaking into a stupid theater? Better to just act nonchalant and pay the stupid ninety cents (or whatever it was).

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited March 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

After all, even if Oswald was the assassin, why would he want to draw attention to himself by sneaking into a stupid theater? Better to just act nonchalant and pay the stupid ninety cents (or whatever it was).

This is possiby the most insightful comment of the day. Yet it simply points out the obvious.

[Thomas Graves]

After all, even if Oswald was the assassin, why would he want to draw attention to himself by sneaking into a stupid theater? Better to just act nonchalant and pay the stupid ninety cents (or whatever it was).

This is possibly the most insightful comment of the day. Yet it simply points out the obvious.

Mark,

I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or not.

Either it's so obvious that no one ever thinks about it, or is been a spectacularly un-insightful day.

Regardless,

"Thanks!"

--Tommy

Bottom line: I figure Oswald did buy a ticket, and Julia Postal felt guilty about testifying to the contrary.

But that raises another question -- shouldn't Oswald have had the ticket stub in his pocket?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

Depends upon whether he kept the stub or not. Might have even lost it in the struggle with McDonald et al...

We simply don't know the answer to that.

But it's logical that, if you're going to enter a movie theater, and you don't want to seem out-of-place, you'd buy a ticket. And I'm guessing that's exactly what Oswald did.

[Paul Brancato]

No one saves ticket stubs to movies do they?

[Thomas Graves]

No one saves ticket stubs to movies do they?

Then why do they give them to you?

I save Indian Head pennies, but I only save ticket stubs for a few days. I throw it away when I realize it's still in my pocket.

--Tommy

[Guest Mark Valenti]

When Oswald was identified as the probable shooter - it was a "poison pill" or "blackmail" for the higher-ups of the CIA, FBI, and Navy. These facts set forth above were hidden until after the ARRB released the documents in the 90s, because they would have made these agencies look terrible, even culpable.

Bill, the concept of a poison pill patsy is really interesting; it brings the event more into focus as political stagecraft.

[Jon G. Tidd]

IMO, Bill Simpich gets an A+.

Oswald was a poison pill patsy.

[Thomas Graves]

IMO, Bill Simpich gets an A+.

Oswald was a poison pill patsy.

Dear Jon,

Here's the sixty-four thousand dollar question --

Was Oswald set up to be the poison pill patsy, or was he just framed by someone who knew that he had been the bait in the Mexico City mole hunt?

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited March 31, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

You write:

"Without his going home:

1 - is there another way to get the rifle from the garage to the 6th floor and attribute it solely to Oswald

2 - is Oswald still the Patsy?"

I think the answer to both questions is yes, but I'm not sure about Q #1. I'm not sure because I suspect the M-C rifle in the National Archives never was in the TSBD.

If Marina's husband had not gone to the Paine residence on November 21, the M-C still could have been planted in the TSBD.

The whole story of the rifle is so flimsy it doesn't bear scrutiny. Whatever the FBI said about the rifle, the MSM bought.

[David Andrews]

Jon G. Tidd: "IMO, the perps wanted to frame Oswald and hide themselves. And then let nature take its course."

Including the necessity of Oswald's murder, at one location or another?

Do we see the hands of the perps in Oswald's escape, Tippet's murder, the perhaps near-murder of Oswald in the theater, and in Oswald's eventual murder by Ruby? What about the legend of the "second Oswald" at the theater backdoor, or the legend of another Oswald entering? Reports of Oswald trying to make contact with individuals in the darkened theater (suggesting the he had an "out" available)?

I'm not contradicting what is turning into a good thread - I'm throwing these post facto issues out for general consideration. How much of all this was not nature taking its course?

Edited April 1, 2015 by David Andrews

[Jon G. Tidd]

Tommy,

My view is that the plotters had two objectives and split vision.

The first objective was to kill JFK. The second objective was to conceal themselves.

Their vision was split in the sense that they were watching JFK and at the same time watching possible patsies. I suspect things came together for the plotters once JFK's trip to Dallas was announced. There was a ready-made patsy. How ready-made is a big question. Did the plotters depend on Ruth Paine to get Marina's husband a job at the TSBD? That's a huge question, a question Bill Simpich has raised (in effect), IMO.

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Andrews,

A critical question for me is whether we see the perps' hands in Tippit's murder.

I lean toward believing we do based on the reports of an Oswald wallet being produced at the Tippit murder scene. Without this wallet, there is no reason to suspect Marina's husband as Tippit's killer. Without this wallet, there is no reason for the DPD to send a substantial force to the Texas Theater to arrest Marina's husband.

IMO, whoever killed Tippit was in league with those who killed JFK. Based entirely on the discovery of an Oswald wallet at the Tippit murder scene.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd

[David Josephs]

While we may never know who killed Tippit, we can and do know who brought the wallet and knew detailed info on Oswald VERY quickly after his arrest.

Let's stay focused on the Evidence rather than the conclusions drawn from it. You may offer different conclusions yet we cannot change the Evidence as offered and discovered as being indicative of the Conspiracy.

From John's website: http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

THE WALLET AT 10TH & PATTON

Following the shooting, eight or nine people walked to Tippit's patrol car and saw him lying on the street. A few minutes later ambulance attendants Clayton Butler and Eddie Kinsley arrived and removed Tippit's body. DPD officers began to arrive at the scene and started to question witnesses as on-lookers gathered. But not one witness, not one ambulance driver, not one neighbor, not one on-looker and not one trained police officer saw a wallet lying on the street or in Tippit's car. Ted Calloway said, "I'll tell you one thing, there was no billfold at that scene. If there way, there would have been too many people who would have seen it."

Dallas Police Captain W.R. Westbrook told the WC how he learned about the Tippit shooting while at the TSBD. Westbrook said, "I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman---I don't recall his name [sgt. Calvin Owens testified he was the man Westbrook didn't recall]---then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed. Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false it was just one of the actually--it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about Kennedy."

By the time Westbrook returned to 10th & Patton there were "150 to 200 people around there," according to Officer J.M. Poe. A few minutes later a wallet suddenly appeared in Westbrook's hands with identification for Lee Harvey Oswald, which linked Oswald to Tippit's murder, and with identification for Alek Hidell that linked Hidell (Oswald) to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the Book Depository. Westbrook called out to FBI agent Bob Barrett and asked him if he knew anything about Oswald or Hidell. Barrett was unfamiliar with these names, but saw the wallet, along with Captain George Doughty, Sergeant Calvin Owens, Sergeant Kenneth Croy, accident investigator Howell Summers, and WFAA TV cameraman Ron Reiland. Reiland filmed police officers as they inspected and handled the wallet. The Dallas Police officers at 10th & Patton now knew, thanks to identification found in the wallet, that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was the prime suspect in Tippit's murder. Their next stop was the Texas Theater where HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeve brown shirt, was sitting in the 4th row in the lower level, while LEE Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, was hiding in the balcony.

Captain Westbrook was the ranking officer at 10th & Patton and knew police procedure as well as anyone. If Westbrook was not the person who brought the wallet to 10th & Patton, then he should have insisted on police reports to establish a "chain of custody" for the wallet, written a detailed report about the wallet and its contents, entered the wallet into evidence at DPD headquarters, and discussed the wallet with the Warren Commission. But not a single police report was written about the wallet and neither Westbrook, Owens, nor Croy mentioned nor was asked about the wallet by the FBI, Secret Service, or the Warren Commission. The fact that Captain Westbrook totally ignored police procedure about a crucial piece of evidence is reason to believe that Westbrook was the person responsible for bringing the wallet to 10th & Patton and, according to FBI agent Barrett, it was Westbrook who kept the wallet. This wallet was the single most important piece of evidence ever found prior to Oswald's arrest, yet ten minutes after it appeared this wallet disappeared in the hands of Capt. Westbrook and was never seen again.

This disappearing wallet is PROOF that Tippit's murder was pre-planned. If Westbrook, or anyone else, had identification in their possession that would be used to identify a suspect in a murder, PRIOR TO THE MURDER, then that person had prior knowledge of a pre-planned assassination. The real significance of this wallet is that it shows that Westbrook knew, IN ADVAVCE, that HARVEY Oswald would be accused of Tippit's murder and that he would be linked to the assassination of President Kennedy from identification cards in the wallet (the name "Hidell" was used to order the rifle from Klein's). The only reason for the wallet to appear at 10th & Patton was to identify and frame Oswald. And the only reason for this wallet to disappear is that DPD officers removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his pants pocket while en route to the police station. Two wallets that contain nearly identical identification are unexplainable. The fact that Captain Westbrook never turned the wallet over to the DPD identification bureau, never entered it into evidence, never described nor mentioned the wallet in a DPD police report, and never mentioned the wallet during his Warren Commission testimony is reason to believe that Dallas Police Captain Westbrook was a very important participant in the CIA's conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy. After the assassination Captain Westbrook relocated to South Vietnam, where he served as a CIA special advisor to the Saigon Police.

NOTE: During the first hour of HARVEY Oswald's first interrogation by Captain Fritz, Captain Westbrook came into the office and said, "Our suspect had admitted being a communist-he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature." Westbrook's detailed knowledge of HARVEY Oswald's background, within one hour after his arrest, is further reason to believe that he was a co-conspirator.

HARVEY Oswald, wearing a brown shirt, was brought out the front entrance of the Texas Theater, placed in a police car and driven to jail. Stuart L. Reed, the 30-year army veteran who took photos of McWatters' bus on Elm St., another photo of McWatters' bus near the TSBD, and a photo of the 6th floor window at the TSBD, was now taking photos of HARVEY Oswald's arrest. Paul Bentley removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his left rear pocket en route to the DPD headquarters (along with Officers Carrol, Hill, Walker and Lyons) and found identification for "Lee Harvey Oswald" and "A. J. Hidell"--similar to the identification found in the wallet that had suddenly appeared in the hands of Captain Westbrook. Bentley told WFAA-TV (11/23/63), "I removed his wallet from his back pocket and obtained his identification." Sgt. Hill said, "the only way we found out what his name was was to remove his billfold and check it ourselves; he wouldn't even tell us what his name was." The Dallas Police were now in possession of two wallets, both containing identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell. These two wallets could have created serious problems, and alerted the public to the possibility of two Lee Harvey Oswalds, if properly identified as evidence and reported. But the wallet that first appeared in the hands of Capt. Westbrook was unexplainable. It could never, ever be made public, and quickly disappeared--last seen in the hands of Capt. Westbrook.

NOTE: There were a total of five Oswald wallets: a black plastic wallet (CE 1798); a red billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #382); a brown billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #114); a billfold taken from LHO upon arrest--initialed by HMM (Henry Moore), wallet and contents inventoried and photographed; and the Westbrook wallet, which was not initialed by police, not listed in inventory, not photographed, not mentioned by a single witness to the WC, HSCA, ARRB, etc. and disappeared, but not before is was filmed by WFAA TV and seen by FBI agent Barrett.

[Jon G. Tidd]

DAVID JOSEPHS,

Do you believe Westbrook produced a wallet at the Tippit murder scene that was different from the wallet allegedly removed from Marina's husband once he was arrested and in the patrol car?

If Westbrook was in on the deal, he would have needed only one wallet.

Could not a wallet have been taken from Marina's husband in the patrol car that had contents different from the contents of the wallet Westbrook produced at the Tippit murder scene?