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Evidence of other guns in Dealey Plaza


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#1 John Dugan

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:49 PM

Other Evidence of Multiple Guns

1) The Barbee Specimen: This intact bullet was found imbedded in the roof of a building located at 1615 Stemmons Free-way by William Barbee in the summer of 1966. The building, which was located about a 1/4 mile from the TSBD, happened to be in the line of fire from where Oswald allegedly shot. Mr. Barbee turned the bullet over to the FBI for analysis in December, 1967, when current publicity about the assassination caused him to wonder if this bullet might be relevant evidence. The FBI lab determined the bullet to be a .30 caliber full metal jacketed military bullet. Its rifling pattern of 4 grooves, right hand twist was the same as that produced by the U.S. government .30 carbine. The FBI took little interest in this bullet once having determined that it came from a weapon other than Oswald's rifle. Apparently, the thought of a second gunmen was never entertained. Yet this bullet is consistent with that which could be shot from the CIA's silenced M-1 .30 caliber carbine. One can speculate that this bullet was shot out in the suburbs by a hunter engaged in target practice. Consider, however, that M-1 .30 caliber carbines were not prevalent amongst the civilian population as they had only been released by the government for civilian use in mid-1963. Furthermore, it was and continues to be illegal to use full metal jacketed military ammunition for hunting purposes.

2) The Haythorne Specimen: The second piece of evidence was a bullet found in 1967 on top of the Massey building by Rich Haythorne, a roofer doing work on the building. The Massey Building was located about 8 blocks away from the TSBD in the 1200 block of Elm Street. It has since been torn down. The bullet remained in the possession of Haythorne's attorney, until it was delivered to the HSCA for examination. The HSCA utilized the services of the Washington, D.C. police department, where it was determined that the bullet was a jacketed, soft-point .30 caliber bullet, weighing 149 grains which was consistent with the .30 caliber ammunition produced by Remington-Peters. Such ammunition was a popular hunting load and many gun manufacturers chambered their rifles to accommodate this ammunition. The 6 groove, right hand twist rifling marks on the bullet indicated that the bullet was not shot from Oswald's Mannlicher-Cacano.

3) The Lester Specimen: The third specimen was a bullet fragment found in Dealey Plaza by Richard Lester in 1974. Its precise location was reported to be 500 yards from the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple overpass abutment. Mr. Lester turned the fragment over to the FBI for analysis in December, 1976. The FBI reported its findings in July, 1977, and concluded that the fragment, which consisted of the base portion of a bullet and weighed 52.7 grains, was consistent with the diameter of a 6.5 mm bullet. It was also determined that the fragment came from a metal jacketed soft point or hollow point sporting bullet. The rifling characteristics did not match those of a Mannlicher-Carcano. Even though the bullet exhibited the same 4 grooves, right hand twist pattern as Oswald's Mannlicher-Cacano, the lands between the grooves were spaced further apart than his Carcano. Once again, no one ventured to suggest that the fragment might represent the work of a second gunman.

4) The Dal-Tex Specimen: The fourth piece of firearm evidence consists of a rusted shell casing found on the rooftop of the Dal-Tex Building in 1977 by an air-conditioning repair man. The Dal-Tex Building is just east of the TSBD, across Houston Street. Assassination researchers have long speculated that a second gunman was positioned at that building. Judging by the rusted condition of the shell case, it had been there for quite some time. What was unique about this case was the crimped edges along the neck suggesting that either the shell had been handloaded or had been used in conjunction with a sabot. Specimens 1), 2) and 3) could conceivably have been shot from locations other than Dealey Plaza by some careless hunter. However, this shell casing meant that the rifle was shot where the shell was expended and it is unlikely that deer hunters ever had occasion to position themselves on a rooftop in downtown Dallas.

credit: http://www.ctka.net/pr1195-hewett.html


#4 is most intriguing to me. Wonder where that shell casing is today?

Have any or all of these been discredited?

#2 Dean Hagerman

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 05:01 PM

#4 is by far the most important find by far

#3 John Dolva

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:53 PM

I may be wrong, but I thought the fourth was from the roof of the County Records building? Or is that a fifth?

#4 Dean Hagerman

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:13 PM

I may be wrong, but I thought the fourth was from the roof of the County Records building? Or is that a fifth?


Your right John, I just looked in Crossfire, it was found on the Records building

#5 John Dolva

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

OK, there is one witness who saw something on the roof with the water towers which were about there in the background then on a roof. Can't remember who.

#6 David S. Brownlee

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:27 AM

I may be wrong, but I thought the fourth was from the roof of the County Records building? Or is that a fifth?


Well John lets think about this a minute..honestly..did they want to kill at all cost? Meaning, take a chance on shooting Jacqueline too? Honestly I cannot answer that question. Any shot from the records Bldg would have a more dangerous angle
.

Edited by David S. Brownlee, 28 January 2010 - 09:29 AM.


#7 John Dolva

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 11:58 AM

The point was whether the fourth find was from the Dal Tex or the County records roof.

It then reminded me of a witness statement (not a statement of my beliefs) about the building with water towers. However, Jackie either way, would not have been in the way. (BTW using Dons Plat is a mistake as it was taped tigether from three sections by Jack. This could explains discrepancies I noted before I came across the post where Jack states this, which at the time I put down to traversion equipment errors. Wests is the way to go, unfortunately Tom P also cut his copy up and sticky taped it together, so a good Drommer, which is hard to find, is prob the best available, (however it doesnt show DP but only the Northern half and a bit more.))

EDIT : typo/s

Edited by John Dolva, 28 January 2010 - 05:05 PM.


#8 Bernice Moore

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:25 PM

HERE'S another...b photo ftom records building showing view and the rooftops in 63 as they were...b i'll be back to finish lost one,,,

#9 Bernice Moore

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:29 PM

topic,322.0.urlPossible Evidence Neglected

I copied this out from an old copy of “The National Tattler” Jun 6/75..
Interesting..[plus some information from jack when first posted...i saved your post jack hope that is fine with you...best b..

“Mystery Cartridge

Found at Murder Scene, Given to TV Newsman, Ignored by Officials.

It Explains Much: By Al Chapman…

Al Chapman author of this article, is a minister who became a hard nosed investigator immediately after President John F.Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas on Nov.22, 1963.
He was one of the first of what became legions of private probers who doubted the official findings of the Warren Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald alone was responsible for the death of President Kennedy. A part of a loose knit group of researchers calling them selves the “Dealey Plaza Irregulars,” Chapman has again and again uncovered significant new evidence that indicates the official version was wrong. He has contributed evidence appearing in a number of best selling books and has been repeatedly recognized on a national level. In this article, written exclusively for TATTLER, Chapman reveals for the first time the finding of a second cartridge at the assassination site, a cartridge that could not have been fired from the rifle the Warren Commission claim Oswald used to kill Kennedy and wound Gov. Connally--
The Editors.

*************

By Al Chapman

A mystery cartridge … one that would not fit the weapon the Warren Commission says was used to kill President John F Kennedy… turned up just after the assassination.
It was never officially and seriously checked out by those responsible for seeking the answer to the President’s death on the streets of Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.
During the bustle and chaos that followed during the first days after Kennedy was shot by one of more snipers, the throngs of newsman and lawmen that converged on Dallas were concerned with the swearing in of Lyndon Johnson, the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, his murder by Jack Ruby.
The second cartridge was ignored.

NOT LONG AGO when I heard of the second cartridge from someone who had been close to Oswald, I began investigating it.
What I learned firmly convinced me that cartridge should be investigated further by officials with the authority and the power to get at the full truth.
The Warren Commission says the bullets that killed President Kennedy and wounded Gov. John Connally were fired by Oswald from a sixth floor window in the Texas Scool Book Depository Building.
The found Oswald’s rifle, a 6.5 caliber weapon, inside a window on the sixth floor and determined it to be the death weapon.
The second cartridge, which still remains a mystery, is a 30.6 caliber. (Such a shell could not have been fired from a 6.5 caliber weapon such as the M.C.)

THE CARTRIDGE ended up in the hands of Bert Shipp, a newsman at the time for the ABC television station in Dallas, WFAA-TV-Channel 8, which ironically is owned by the wealthy family for which Dealey Plaza , where Kennedy was killed, is named.
A postman walked up to a WFAA cameraman on the street and handed him the cartridge. It was wrapped in a postal receipt.
“Give this to Bert Shipp,” the postman said. “He will know what to do with it”. Shipp was a well known television personality and perhaps that is why the postman thought of him. “Where did you get it?” The cameraman asked.
“I found it in the bushes outside the School Book Depository Building,” said the postman.
This was about noon, Nov.23, 1963---the day after Kennedy was killed, the day before Oswald’s lips were silenced forever by Jack Ruby’s gun.
Shipp at first didn’t take it seriously. “I thought somebody was playing a little joke on me,” Shipp told me in a tape-recorded interview.

THE CARTRIDGE shell lay on Shipp’s desk for months. Many people walking in and out of the television newsroom had a look at it, perhaps speculated on it.
Some law enforcement people heard about and had a look at the shell.
Finally, a member of the Dallas Police Department went by the television station and picked up the cartridge. The police kept the cartridge for awhile and then Patrolman George Butler gave it back to Shipp, who still had it.
Police told Shipp as far as they were concerned; he had one of the shells that had come out of Oswald’s rifle. It must have flicked out the sixth floor window and landed in the bushes below.
The only problem with that is there is no logical way the shell could have flicked out the window. And there were no bushes below the window---only cement.( Neither could a 30.6 shell be fired from the MC.)
If the postman indeed found the shell in the grass or bushes, it had to have been another area--- most probably the grassy knoll where many sources report hearing shots and seeing puffs of smoke when Kennedy was shot ---reports brushed aside by the investigation’s officials.

ENGRAVED ON THE mystery bullet is “FA 41.” I checked this out and found this meant the bullet was manufactured in 1941 at Frankfort Arsenal in Illinois. It was part of 1941 military ammunition.
Firearms experts will tell you such a bullet manufactured during World War 11 would be just as potent two decades later and could have been fired at the President.
A corner was torn off the postal receipt in which the cartridge was wrapped. That corner would have shown the date and month of the receipt.
The receipt was blank except for a telephone number. Checking out the telephone number, I found that in 1963, it was the number of a North Dallas lounge that, according to police sources. Was a hangout for underworld figures? At the time I interviewed Shipp, the number belonged to a loading ramp at Dallas Love Field.
I have never been able to locate the postman who found the shell. It could have been one of many postmen who served the various office buildings in the area.

WHAT THE authorities should do ---if an official reopening, of the assassination is conducted---is to locate the missing person. The information he could provide might be a vital link in determining the truth about the President’s death more than ten years later.”” Written in 1975.

Al Chapman ..Bert Shipp

A few words about Al Chapman. I went all through high school with Al.
Al had only one arm; his left arm was missing at the shoulder. His right
arm was extremely strong; he could outgrip anyone. Despite his handicap,
he played tackle on the football team. After high school, he was running
with some bad friends and had a minor scrape with the law. After that
he "got religion" and was even ordained as a part-time minister. I seem
to recall that his "regular job" was as a custodian, I think. In 1963
he took an intense interest in investigating the assassination, became
a writer and frequent contributor to grocery tabloids. He was helped
by his son, who is now a Dallas private investigator. Al died about 20
years ago. Shortly after Al's death, his son let me copy a few of Al's
photos. If I recall correctly, he purchased one of her several sets of
the WC 26 volumes that had been obtained by Marguerite Oswald.

Jack

Edited by Bernice Moore, 28 January 2010 - 03:30 PM.


#10 William Kelly

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 05:30 PM

I'd like to know whether people think Homer is BS or for real? - BK

From a transcript of the recording of the ARRB interview with Homer McMahon, color tech at NPIC.
........
DH: I'd like to ask a follow on question on the opinions in the room on the discussion of the hits on the governor and the president. Did Mr. Smith tell you the directions the shots came from, or did you people try to determine that on your own from your study?

HM: I may not answer that question. Let me take a detour. I'm an army brat. My dad was in the first and second world war. He was an officer. When I was four years old, I was taught to shoot tricks. I was one of the greatest trick shot artists. When I was sixteen I used to fire at Perry, at Camp Perry, Ohio, I was in the NRA national championships. I'm talking about target shooting, not tricks. I was what they called a sight shooter. I could hit without aiming. In other words I was a trick shot artist. My dad would hold a dime between his fingers and at fifty foot I could shoot it out (ha ha) with a little trick gun. I'd pump three balls, golf balls and could pump and hit the three of them before they hit the ground. I used to have a rifle range in my basement and I would shoot every day and I became….it was like driving a car and after you've done it for so long you're reflexes do it automatically. I could shoot without looking. I didn't close one eye and look through a sight. I could actually shoot and hit what I wanted to hit. And I think I could really see the bullets hitting the object, and their trajectory, I could see the path of the bullet, and I could compensate for that if I missed. It was a feedback mechanism. And I was very good at what I did. In fact I'd make money in the money matches with the larger rifles, and I could make four or five hundred dollars in prize money firing, so I was a professional shooter, and yes, I could look at the pictures and tell you how many shots and possibly where they came from up, down, right, left, and this is intuition, and I couldn't explain how I know that.


DH: What was it, how many shots were there in the assassination? What is your opinion?

HM: About eight shots.


DH: Where did they come from?

HM: From three different directions, at least.

DH: Could you remember what the directions were?

HM: No, but if you have the film, you can plot vectors. Because you can go out, I'm a photogramist as well. There's a way to do it, believe me.

DH: Were you asked to do that?

HM: No.

DH: Did you say that you were looking at the film with the others….

HM: I wasn't a photogramacist at the time….I later worked as aerial photographer and I did aerial photography for what do you call it, for mapping, first, second and third order surveying. I did that for ten or twelve years….and….Now I was a shooter, and that is the only reason I can tell you what I saw and thought I saw, and it wasn't superior vision, it was just intuition. And no I did not agree with their analysis at the time I was doing the work, and I didn't have to because I wasn't a photo analysist, (ha ha) I was not paid to do that.

DH: What did Mr. Smith think?

HM: He thought there were three shots.


JG: From what direction.

HM: He held to the standard concept, that Oswald fired out of the second story…you have psychological profiles of Oswald…you have tons of it, you ought to be able to figure it out…(ha ha).....

Edited by William Kelly, 28 January 2010 - 08:51 PM.


#11 John Dolva

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:06 PM

HMM...I'm thinking brass spitting. This would create a trajectory which from a height could end up in bushes (he doesnt say which bushes?). Various rifles, like the Argentine Mauser was renowned for its forward right spit, which affected battle formation. Anyway, here's an account of a fourth cartridge, stated by the police as being from the rifle supposedly used to kill Kennedy. Can't help laughing. Well, since murder cases are not closed in Texas, why was this possibele proof of a fourth shot not taken further? What a tangled mess.
I wonder who the postman was?

#12 William Kelly

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 02:17 AM

I'd like to know whether people think Homer is BS or for real? - BK

From a transcript of the recording of the ARRB interview with Homer McMahon, color tech at NPIC.
........
DH: I'd like to ask a follow on question on the opinions in the room on the discussion of the hits on the governor and the president. Did Mr. Smith tell you the directions the shots came from, or did you people try to determine that on your own from your study?

HM: I may not answer that question. Let me take a detour. I'm an army brat. My dad was in the first and second world war. He was an officer. When I was four years old, I was taught to shoot tricks. I was one of the greatest trick shot artists. When I was sixteen I used to fire at Perry, at Camp Perry, Ohio, I was in the NRA national championships. I'm talking about target shooting, not tricks. I was what they called a sight shooter. I could hit without aiming. In other words I was a trick shot artist. My dad would hold a dime between his fingers and at fifty foot I could shoot it out (ha ha) with a little trick gun. I'd pump three balls, golf balls and could pump and hit the three of them before they hit the ground. I used to have a rifle range in my basement and I would shoot every day and I became….it was like driving a car and after you've done it for so long you're reflexes do it automatically. I could shoot without looking. I didn't close one eye and look through a sight. I could actually shoot and hit what I wanted to hit. And I think I could really see the bullets hitting the object, and their trajectory, I could see the path of the bullet, and I could compensate for that if I missed. It was a feedback mechanism. And I was very good at what I did. In fact I'd make money in the money matches with the larger rifles, and I could make four or five hundred dollars in prize money firing, so I was a professional shooter, and yes, I could look at the pictures and tell you how many shots and possibly where they came from up, down, right, left, and this is intuition, and I couldn't explain how I know that.


DH: What was it, how many shots were there in the assassination? What is your opinion?

HM: About eight shots.


DH: Where did they come from?

HM: From three different directions, at least.

DH: Could you remember what the directions were?

HM: No, but if you have the film, you can plot vectors. Because you can go out, I'm a photogramist as well. There's a way to do it, believe me.

DH: Were you asked to do that?

HM: No.

DH: Did you say that you were looking at the film with the others….

HM: I wasn't a photogramacist at the time….I later worked as aerial photographer and I did aerial photography for what do you call it, for mapping, first, second and third order surveying. I did that for ten or twelve years….and….Now I was a shooter, and that is the only reason I can tell you what I saw and thought I saw, and it wasn't superior vision, it was just intuition. And no I did not agree with their analysis at the time I was doing the work, and I didn't have to because I wasn't a photo analysist, (ha ha) I was not paid to do that.

DH: What did Mr. Smith think?

HM: He thought there were three shots.


JG: From what direction.

HM: He held to the standard concept, that Oswald fired out of the second story…you have psychological profiles of Oswald…you have tons of it, you ought to be able to figure it out…(ha ha).....



#13 Paul Baker

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:13 PM

If you read witness statements, or even listen to the news recordings on the day, you'll find the general consensus is that three, evenly spaced shots were fired.

#14 Jack White

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:22 PM

If you read witness statements, or even listen to the news recordings on the day, you'll find the general consensus is that three, evenly spaced shots were fired.


BLATANTLY FALSE!

#15 Michael Crane

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:41 PM

This is not evidence,but a possibility of more then one gunman shown in Robert Groden`s book "The Killing of a President."It shows a total of 6 shots.

Posted Image

Edited by Michael Crane, 04 February 2010 - 07:45 PM.





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