James "Bo" Gritz

[Terry Adams]

I was at a Civil War Reenactment yesterday in Southeastern Kentucky and while there I met a very interesting gentleman. His name is David Norman F. Todd from Tennessee. I purchased a civil war era surveying instrument (transit) from him and asked him how long this had been an interest of his. He answered with: Are you referring to Civil war or all types of American history? I answered with "all types". His response was that he had been doing this for about 45 years. I made an determination in my mind that he was probably in his early to mid 80's. His business card indicates, as did his displays that his expertise was portraits on canvas. Anyway, as it is whenever I meet someone who studies history, I mentioned my interest in the JFK Assassination, and also mentioned that I belonged to a forum of researchers based in England (The Education Forum) and in America (JFK Lancer). He asked to what extent was my interest and I informed him that it was my belief that there was more than one shooter in Dealey plaza on November 22, 1963. He hesitated before he answered and I half expected him to say that I was confused and he was going to explain to me how it was that I was wrong. Instead the surprising answer that I got was a question. "Would you like for me to tell you who trained the team that did the shooting"? I'm sure that I had an expression of shock on my face, and said;"by your using the word team, we must be on the same page". He gave me the name of James "Bo" Gritz ( he said that Mr. Gritz liked to be called by his nickname). He then said that Mr Gritz was a highly decorated Vietnam War veteran who had told him that that the assassination was carried out in the way that made him(Bo) feel that it had to be some of the very people that he had trained in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina back in the 60's. I told Mr Todd that I could not wait to get back home to my computer and look for information on Mr. Gritz.

What I found was a character, to say the least. He was well known for attempting missions into Vietnam and other parts of Southeast Asia to free U.S. prisoners of War that he felt were still being held there after the war ended. This is just the "tip of the iceberg" on Mr. Gritz. He was involved in the "Ruby Ridge incident where he convinced Randy Weaver to turn himself into authorities. As we all know, Mr Weaver's wife and son, as well as an US Marshall were killed there. There is much more to read on this guy at http://www.bogritz.com/

Mr. Todd also seems to have quite a past. He told me that he had been a lobbyist in Washington D.C. in the 60's. He informed me that he had nineteen (19) indictments against him during the Watergate investigations, of which eighteen (18) were dropped. He was prosecuted for the last one. He did not say if he was found guilty, but by his silence, I do believe he was. He also told me that a member of his family was married into the Bush family. His thoughts on why JFK was murdered was due to the president's plan to do away with the Federal Reserve. I told him that I would be in touch with him by email and went on my way trying to absorb all that I had been told in that chance meeting.

Terry

Edited October 27, 2008 by Terry Adams

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I was at a Civil War Reenactment yesterday in Southeastern Kentucky and while there I met a very interesting gentleman. His name is David Norman F. Todd from Tennessee. I purchased a civil war era surveying instrument (transit) from him and asked him how long this had been an interest of his. He answered with: Are you referring to Civil war or all types of American history? I answered with "all types". His response was that he had been doing this for about 45 years. I made an determination in my mind that he was probably in his early to mid 80's. His business card indicates, as did his displays that his expertise was portraits on canvas. Anyway, as it is whenever I meet someone who studies history, I mentioned my interest in the JFK Assassination, and also mentioned that I belonged to a forum of researchers based in England (The Education Forum) and in America (JFK Lancer). He asked to what extent was my interest and I informed him that it was my belief that there was more than one shooter in Dealey plaza on November 22, 1963. He hesitated before he answered and I half expected him to say that I was confused and he was going to explain to me how it was that I was wrong. Instead the surprising answer that I got was a question. "Would you like for me to tell you who trained the team that did the shooting"? I'm sure that I had an expression of shock on my face, and said;"by your using the word team, we must be on the same page". He gave me the name of James "Bo" Gritz ( he said that Mr. Gritz liked to be called by his nickname). He then said that Mr Gritz was a highly decorated Vietnam War veteran who had told him that that the assassination was carried out in the way that made him(Bo) feel that it had to be some of the very people that he had trained in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina back in the 60's. I told Mr Todd that I could not wait to get back home to my computer and look for information on Mr. Gritz.

What I found was a character, to say the least. He was well known for attempting missions into Vietnam and other parts of Southeast Asia to free U.S. prisoners of War that he felt were still being held there after the war ended. This is just the "tip of the iceberg" on Mr. Gritz. He was involved in the "Ruby Ridge incident where he convinced Randy Weaver to turn himself into authorities. As we all know, Mr Weaver's wife and son, as well as an US Marshall were killed there. There is much more to read on this guy at http://www.bogritz.com/

Mr. Todd also seems to have quite a past. He told me that he had been a lobbyist in Washington D.C. in the 60's. He informed me that he had nineteen (19) indictments against him during the Watergate investigations, of which eighteen (18) were dropped. He was prosecuted for the last one. He did not say if he was found guilty, but by his silence, I do believe he was. He also told me that a member of his family was married into the Bush family. His thoughts on why JFK was murdered was due to the president's plan to do away with the Federal Reserve. I told him that I would be in touch with him by email and went on my way trying to absorb all that I had been told in that chance meeting.

Terry

An appropriate response would have been: "Please wait right there while I go get my shovel and wheelbarrow"

As a lot of BS shoveling is in order.

Last check, "Bo" was still living, so why not contact him directly and see if he is actually creating this COS (crock of S**T).

Might even want to ask him if this is some sort of "Bar Bet"!

http://www.bogritz.com/

[Ron Ecker]

Bo's book "Called To Serve" contains too many inaccurate, unsubstantiated, and absurd statements about the JFK assassination to enumerate at this time. (Two examples: one of the tramps has been "positively identified" as William Seymour, and "On Curry's orders the police radio was temporarily out of commission").

[Jack White]

I once met Gritz at a JFK meeting where he was on the program with Robert Groden.

He seemed very knowledgeable about the assassination. I purchased his book, which

has much good information, but is full of inaccuracies too, diminishing its importance.

Jack

[Terry Adams]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I just wanted to pass along what I had learned from a chance meeting with a guy in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, of all places. I do feel, even though the consensus is that Mr Gritz was less than truthful in his writings about the JFK assassination, it is important for us to be ever diligent in our efforts for getting at the truth behind this terrible tragedy. Another example of the fact that we may find evidence anywhere is that upon reading about the death of Harold Doyle, here on the forum, I was surprised to find that he was buried less than 35 miles from my home in neighboring Pike County, Ky.

Terry

Edited October 28, 2008 by Terry Adams

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I just wanted to pass along what I had learned from a chance meeting with a guy in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, of all places. I do feel, even though the consensus is that Mr Gritz was less than truthful in his writings about the JFK assassination, it is important for us to be ever diligent in our efforts for getting at the truth behind this terrible tragedy. Another example of the fact that we may find evidence anywhere is that upon reading about the death of Harold Doyle, here on the forum, I was surprised to find that he was buried less than 35 miles from my home in neighboring Pike County, Ky.

Terry

Gritz, or one of his close associates, would have had the expertise to train a team, but three things come to mind. One, was he old enough then? Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described - always ready and always kept out of sight and under false names, cover, etc. Third, when I worked with the Christic Institute on their lawsuit based on the La Penca bombing, Gritz inserted himself briefly. He gave a decent, but somewhat off-topic talk at a Christic public lecture on US Govt. drug-running out of SEA and other places. I can't find fault with what he said, but he may have been a trojan horse [one of many] to destroy the Christic [Honey/Avergan] Lawsuit [i forget the details, but most later felt that]....so just caution you to move carefully in regarding him in this light. The lawsuit and supporting materials ranged far and wide [too wide for a lawsuit, IMO] and included Dallas and other Deep Political events since WWII. Wasn't WerBell also so tagged as a supplier of weapons and trainer for some of the 'team'?

Considering the fact that the "shooting event" in Dealey Plaza was only marginally above "Boy Scout/Pellet Gun" qualification standards, one may wish to ask themselves as well as asking "Bo" exactly why anyone would need to train a "Team" to accomplish such a feat.

The fact that one does not understand the actual shooting feat, does not mean that the act itself was of some tremendous difficulty rating.

Merely means that one does not understand the facts!

Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described

Sure! One would merely go down to the Weapons Training Division of Special Forces Schools, and request the issue of three "un-named" snipers who were highly qualified with the Carcano weapon to shoot the President of the US.

Then go over to the Communications Division and request a few Radio Operators for Coordination and control.

Along with a stop by the CIA Liason Office in the Center to pick up the Carcano Ammunition.

All very clandestine!

Probably want to request the JFK Center Commander's private aircraft for transport also.

[William Kelly]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I just wanted to pass along what I had learned from a chance meeting with a guy in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, of all places. I do feel, even though the consensus is that Mr Gritz was less than truthful in his writings about the JFK assassination, it is important for us to be ever diligent in our efforts for getting at the truth behind this terrible tragedy. Another example of the fact that we may find evidence anywhere is that upon reading about the death of Harold Doyle, here on the forum, I was surprised to find that he was buried less than 35 miles from my home in neighboring Pike County, Ky.

Terry

Gritz, or one of his close associates, would have had the expertise to train a team, but three things come to mind. One, was he old enough then? Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described - always ready and always kept out of sight and under false names, cover, etc. Third, when I worked with the Christic Institute on their lawsuit based on the La Penca bombing, Gritz inserted himself briefly. He gave a decent, but somewhat off-topic talk at a Christic public lecture on US Govt. drug-running out of SEA and other places. I can't find fault with what he said, but he may have been a trojan horse [one of many] to destroy the Christic [Honey/Avergan] Lawsuit [i forget the details, but most later felt that]....so just caution you to move carefully in regarding him in this light. The lawsuit and supporting materials ranged far and wide [too wide for a lawsuit, IMO] and included Dallas and other Deep Political events since WWII. Wasn't WerBell also so tagged as a supplier of weapons and trainer for some of the 'team'?

Considering the fact that the "shooting event" in Dealey Plaza was only marginally above "Boy Scout/Pellet Gun" qualification standards, one may wish to ask themselves as well as asking "Bo" exactly why anyone would need to train a "Team" to accomplish such a feat.

The fact that one does not understand the actual shooting feat, does not mean that the act itself was of some tremendous difficulty rating.

Merely means that one does not understand the facts!

Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described

Sure! One would merely go down to the Weapons Training Division of Special Forces Schools, and request the issue of three "un-named" snipers who were highly qualified with the Carcano weapon to shoot the President of the US.

Then go over to the Communications Division and request a few Radio Operators for Coordination and control.

Along with a stop by the CIA Liason Office in the Center to pick up the Carcano Ammunition.

All very clandestine!

Probably want to request the JFK Center Commander's private aircraft for transport also.

So, instead of a well planned and coordinated covert op ambush with two or three sniper teams, complete with intentional distracitons and escape routes maped out, JFK was shot by a single, lone sniper.

This single, lone sniper, wearing a white shirt, and using the MC rifle, is then classified as either a really sharp, totally in control assassin, ala the Jackal, who does the job and quietly slips away, or he's an untrained, psychopathic nut case, loner and loser who can't hold a job and beats his wife and is given the opportunity that suddenly presents itself and takes three easy shots and gets lucky.

So which is is?

It's not a matter of one assassin or three, it's a case of well planned and executed or nut case and lucky.

BK

[Ron Ecker]

Those of us who believe the fatal shot may have come from the south knoll area may be rank amateurs, but I wonder why an expert like Bo Gritz doesn't even consider the possibility in his book, given the advantages of such a straight-on trajectory. (Bo mentions the problem of shooting at a car moving by.) He also says that one of the shooters was in the cupola on the grassy knoll. (The other three were behind the fence, in the TSBD and Dal-Tex.) How many of us rank amateurs believe that? (Easy escape route, no one would see you come running out of that cupola, or hiding in it till the crowd was gone.) He also says that the gunman in the cupola would have the limo coming straight toward him. Is that true?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I just wanted to pass along what I had learned from a chance meeting with a guy in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, of all places. I do feel, even though the consensus is that Mr Gritz was less than truthful in his writings about the JFK assassination, it is important for us to be ever diligent in our efforts for getting at the truth behind this terrible tragedy. Another example of the fact that we may find evidence anywhere is that upon reading about the death of Harold Doyle, here on the forum, I was surprised to find that he was buried less than 35 miles from my home in neighboring Pike County, Ky.

Terry

Gritz, or one of his close associates, would have had the expertise to train a team, but three things come to mind. One, was he old enough then? Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described - always ready and always kept out of sight and under false names, cover, etc. Third, when I worked with the Christic Institute on their lawsuit based on the La Penca bombing, Gritz inserted himself briefly. He gave a decent, but somewhat off-topic talk at a Christic public lecture on US Govt. drug-running out of SEA and other places. I can't find fault with what he said, but he may have been a trojan horse [one of many] to destroy the Christic [Honey/Avergan] Lawsuit [i forget the details, but most later felt that]....so just caution you to move carefully in regarding him in this light. The lawsuit and supporting materials ranged far and wide [too wide for a lawsuit, IMO] and included Dallas and other Deep Political events since WWII. Wasn't WerBell also so tagged as a supplier of weapons and trainer for some of the 'team'?

Considering the fact that the "shooting event" in Dealey Plaza was only marginally above "Boy Scout/Pellet Gun" qualification standards, one may wish to ask themselves as well as asking "Bo" exactly why anyone would need to train a "Team" to accomplish such a feat.

The fact that one does not understand the actual shooting feat, does not mean that the act itself was of some tremendous difficulty rating.

Merely means that one does not understand the facts!

Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described

Sure! One would merely go down to the Weapons Training Division of Special Forces Schools, and request the issue of three "un-named" snipers who were highly qualified with the Carcano weapon to shoot the President of the US.

Then go over to the Communications Division and request a few Radio Operators for Coordination and control.

Along with a stop by the CIA Liason Office in the Center to pick up the Carcano Ammunition.

All very clandestine!

Probably want to request the JFK Center Commander's private aircraft for transport also.

So, instead of a well planned and coordinated covert op ambush with two or three sniper teams, complete with intentional distracitons and escape routes maped out, JFK was shot by a single, lone sniper.

This single, lone sniper, wearing a white shirt, and using the MC rifle, is then classified as either a really sharp, totally in control assassin, ala the Jackal, who does the job and quietly slips away, or he's an untrained, psychopathic nut case, loner and loser who can't hold a job and beats his wife and is given the opportunity that suddenly presents itself and takes three easy shots and gets lucky.

So which is is?

It's not a matter of one assassin or three, it's a case of well planned and executed or nut case and lucky.

BK

It's not a matter of one assassin or three,

Actually! That is the primary problem which plagues the event. In fact, there are those who have it up to about six shooters.

Then of course we have the "body snatchers"/aka wound alterations specialists included as well.

it's a case of well planned and executed or nut case and lucky.

Exactly what level of "well planned and executed" does it require to sneak a rifle into a multi-story building along a parade route and thereafter shoot at anyone in the parade? Especially in 1963?

And, exactly what level of "lucky" does one have to be to hit someone with a relatively accurate military rifle at ranges which vary from 75 yards to 98 yards?

Especially when one had qualified/shot at targets of 500 yards with some excellent results, and which shooting was without benefit of a scope.

"Well Planned" would include ONLY a single shooter, as anything other than this would constitute an absolute conspiracy as well as compound the difficulties in keeping the planning secretive.

Most attempted assassinations of political leaders (by firearm) that have failed, were a result of too many co-conspiratants being involved and someone ultimatly letting the cat out of the bag well prior to the prey being within range.

Not only that, kind of difficult to waste two or three "co-conspiratant" shooters and make it look as if, and make people believe that it is merely some disgruntled citizen.

KISS!

Keep It Simple Stupid!

[William Kelly]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I just wanted to pass along what I had learned from a chance meeting with a guy in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, of all places. I do feel, even though the consensus is that Mr Gritz was less than truthful in his writings about the JFK assassination, it is important for us to be ever diligent in our efforts for getting at the truth behind this terrible tragedy. Another example of the fact that we may find evidence anywhere is that upon reading about the death of Harold Doyle, here on the forum, I was surprised to find that he was buried less than 35 miles from my home in neighboring Pike County, Ky.

Terry

Gritz, or one of his close associates, would have had the expertise to train a team, but three things come to mind. One, was he old enough then? Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described - always ready and always kept out of sight and under false names, cover, etc. Third, when I worked with the Christic Institute on their lawsuit based on the La Penca bombing, Gritz inserted himself briefly. He gave a decent, but somewhat off-topic talk at a Christic public lecture on US Govt. drug-running out of SEA and other places. I can't find fault with what he said, but he may have been a trojan horse [one of many] to destroy the Christic [Honey/Avergan] Lawsuit [i forget the details, but most later felt that]....so just caution you to move carefully in regarding him in this light. The lawsuit and supporting materials ranged far and wide [too wide for a lawsuit, IMO] and included Dallas and other Deep Political events since WWII. Wasn't WerBell also so tagged as a supplier of weapons and trainer for some of the 'team'?

Considering the fact that the "shooting event" in Dealey Plaza was only marginally above "Boy Scout/Pellet Gun" qualification standards, one may wish to ask themselves as well as asking "Bo" exactly why anyone would need to train a "Team" to accomplish such a feat.

The fact that one does not understand the actual shooting feat, does not mean that the act itself was of some tremendous difficulty rating.

Merely means that one does not understand the facts!

Second, such a team would be chosen from well and pre-trained persons of the type Prouty described

Sure! One would merely go down to the Weapons Training Division of Special Forces Schools, and request the issue of three "un-named" snipers who were highly qualified with the Carcano weapon to shoot the President of the US.

Then go over to the Communications Division and request a few Radio Operators for Coordination and control.

Along with a stop by the CIA Liason Office in the Center to pick up the Carcano Ammunition.

All very clandestine!

Probably want to request the JFK Center Commander's private aircraft for transport also.

So, instead of a well planned and coordinated covert op ambush with two or three sniper teams, complete with intentional distracitons and escape routes maped out, JFK was shot by a single, lone sniper.

This single, lone sniper, wearing a white shirt, and using the MC rifle, is then classified as either a really sharp, totally in control assassin, ala the Jackal, who does the job and quietly slips away, or he's an untrained, psychopathic nut case, loner and loser who can't hold a job and beats his wife and is given the opportunity that suddenly presents itself and takes three easy shots and gets lucky.

So which is is?

It's not a matter of one assassin or three, it's a case of well planned and executed or nut case and lucky.

BK

It's not a matter of one assassin or three,

Actually! That is the primary problem which plagues the event. In fact, there are those who have it up to about six shooters.

Then of course we have the "body snatchers"/aka wound alterations specialists included as well.

it's a case of well planned and executed or nut case and lucky.

Exactly what level of "well planned and executed" does it require to sneak a rifle into a multi-story building along a parade route and thereafter shoot at anyone in the parade? Especially in 1963?

And, exactly what level of "lucky" does one have to be to hit someone with a relatively accurate military rifle at ranges which vary from 75 yards to 98 yards?

Especially when one had qualified/shot at targets of 500 yards with some excellent results, and which shooting was without benefit of a scope.

"Well Planned" would include ONLY a single shooter, as anything other than this would constitute an absolute conspiracy as well as compound the difficulties in keeping the planning secretive.

Most attempted assassinations of political leaders (by firearm) that have failed, were a result of too many co-conspiratants being involved and someone ultimatly letting the cat out of the bag well prior to the prey being within range.

Not only that, kind of difficult to waste two or three "co-conspiratant" shooters and make it look as if, and make people believe that it is merely some disgruntled citizen.

KISS!

Keep It Simple Stupid!

So is your single assassin a psycho or a covert operator?

And if a pyscho, how do you explain the breakdown in security and the foreknowldge of events as predicted by a dozen of those on the fringes?

BK

[David G. Healy]

...

It's not a matter of one assassin or three,

Actually! That is the primary problem which plagues the event. In fact, there are those who have it up to about six shooters.

Then of course we have the "body snatchers"/aka wound alterations specialists included as well.

...

KISS!

Keep It Simple Stupid!

Gotta love that phrase.....

Anyway, an issue that deserves a little review: we have the NPIC (belonging to one of the alphabet agencies) reviewing a first generation dupe or, the alleged in-camera original the Zapruder Film, the very same weekend of the assassination. Their analysts determined at least 4+ shots. Now I understand Oswald shooting abilities have been raised to that mythical status of Sgt. York. However, 4+ shots in how many seconds, 8 tops? That's conspiracy, Tom. More than one shooter! (KISS, right?) That simple testimony, given in a court of law blows the SBT right out of the water. And it makes no difference if Oswald was involved or not....

Edited October 29, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Mark Knight]

All this Bo Gritz stuff aside, what we know is still puzzling. We have JFK hit by 3 shots, apparently from the building where Oswald worked, but by a rifle that cannot be traced to Oswald. And while Oswald was capable of making 3 shots/3 hits at under 100 yards in around 8 seconds, there's no evidence that Oswald was firing that rifle. So if someone else provided the rifle--a model 91/38, similar to Oswald's 91/24 but a LOT more accurate--and if someone else pulled the trigger--still a possibility, as Oswald wasn't the only person with the ability to shoot a rifle in the TSBD that day--then it is possible--and, I submit, probable--that President Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy...and it's likely that Oswald was a part of the conspiracy, even if the 91/38 wasn't his and even if he didn't pull the trigger.

For someone to know that Oswald's 91/24 was inaccurate, and to provide a 91/38 stamped with the same serial number as Oswald's 91/24, would indicate conspiracy. And for Oswald to behave as he did after the shooting--particularly his not leaving town--coupled with his use of the term "patsy" when he referred to his own role that day, leads me to suspect that Oswald was the rabbit, the one the "hounds" were supposed to chase while the actual murderer(s) got away.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

All this Bo Gritz stuff aside, what we know is still puzzling. We have JFK hit by 3 shots, apparently from the building where Oswald worked, but by a rifle that cannot be traced to Oswald. And while Oswald was capable of making 3 shots/3 hits at under 100 yards in around 8 seconds, there's no evidence that Oswald was firing that rifle. So if someone else provided the rifle--a model 91/38, similar to Oswald's 91/24 but a LOT more accurate--and if someone else pulled the trigger--still a possibility, as Oswald wasn't the only person with the ability to shoot a rifle in the TSBD that day--then it is possible--and, I submit, probable--that President Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy...and it's likely that Oswald was a part of the conspiracy, even if the 91/38 wasn't his and even if he didn't pull the trigger.

For someone to know that Oswald's 91/24 was inaccurate, and to provide a 91/38 stamped with the same serial number as Oswald's 91/24, would indicate conspiracy. And for Oswald to behave as he did after the shooting--particularly his not leaving town--coupled with his use of the term "patsy" when he referred to his own role that day, leads me to suspect that Oswald was the rabbit, the one the "hounds" were supposed to chase while the actual murderer(s) got away.

David:

Their analysts determined at least 4+ shots. Now I understand Oswald shooting abilities have been raised to that mythical status of Sgt. York. However, 4+ shots in how many seconds, 8 tops? That's conspiracy, Tom. More than one shooter! (KISS, right?) That simple testimony, given in a court of law blows the SBT right out of the water.

Sounds somewhat like others over on the McAdams sites who are of the opinion that the murder of JFK can be resolved by looking at the Zapruder film.

And, although there exists obvious conflicts among the witness statements, one may wish to consider the preponderance of testimonies of those who were actually present. Many of whom were not even called before the WC to testify, and the great majority of whom repeatedly have stated: Three Shots!

Lastly, one can neither (never) prove nor disprove that there were not _______(fill in the blank as it suits oneself) shooters in Dealey Plaza. However! The forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence has, and will always demonstrate that JFK was struck by the impact of THREE BULLETS! which were fired from behind and above.

And, as a matter of fact, it was actually only marginally quality shooting when one takes all things into consideration.

==================================

Mark:

I submit, probable--that President Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy...and it's likely that Oswald was a part of the conspiracy, even if the 91/38 wasn't his and even if he didn't pull the trigger.

Actually, there should be little if any doubt in the mind of anyone, that JFK was assassinated as the end result of a conspiracy!

Problem being, as to whether this conspiracy actually began as an attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro (as it now appears was the actual beginning of the LHO saga), and then the target was intentionally changed to JFK, or as to whether LHO, as a result of having been denied access to his target, of his own accord, thereafter, with absolutely no influence by others, took it upon himself to shoot JFK.

Or, of course, there will always remain the posibillity that JFK was always the original and intended target.

And in that regards, LHO could just as easily have been the designated "Hand" to watch, while someone else actually pulled the rabbit from the hat.---------So goes the nature of such operations.

For someone to know that Oswald's 91/24 was inaccurate, and to provide a 91/38 stamped with the same serial number as Oswald's 91/24, would indicate conspiracy. And for Oswald to behave as he did after the shooting--particularly his not leaving town--coupled with his use of the term "patsy" when he referred to his own role that day, leads me to suspect that Oswald was the rabbit, the one the "hounds" were supposed to chase while the actual murderer(s) got away.

To date, all that we have is "paperwork"/documents which demonstrate that what LHO actually ordered was the 36-inch length Carbine. (Be it the inaccurate Model 91/24 or the actual (and somewhat accurate) Model TS Carbine).

That LHO actually discussed with Alba the problems of accuracy with a "cut-down" weapon, serves to indicate that he too was somwhat familiar with the problems one would have with such as the Model 91/24.

In that regards, the manufacture date is generally stamped on all Carcano rifles, and anyone who would attempt to assassinate anyone in 1963, with a weapon which was made between 1891 to 1924 (1924 being the year in which the old worn out Long Rifles were cut down to Carbine length), would be a complete idiot.

Ordering of the Carcano (by LHO) from Kleins, was a deliberate and specific act, and therefore must have some specific reason(s).

In which it would appear that an error was made!

In regards to the "specific act", one should take into consideration:

1. As reliably reported by none other than Massad Ayoob, Klein's Sporting Goods was actually owned by Pepsi!

2. As most have known for some time, Pepsi was utilized as a "Front" for many CIA related activities.

3. As most are now aware, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition was of a limited production, manufactured by Western

Cartridge Company, and thereafter purportedly paid for through a USMC pay voucher.

All of which is absolutely indicative of an originally planned usage for some clandestine/covert operation.

SO! Those within the Agency were even more incompetent than even many here give credit for being, in event that they allowed their "operative"/LHO to order a weapon and ammo which had direct linage back to CIA heredity and which would "point the finger" at such activities.

"Incoming! Run for Cover!

As regards the usage of the term "Patsy"!

When one takes into consideration that LHO had apparantly been "coached" as to what to expect at the US Embassy in the Soviet Union, then exactly why would one not consider that he had also been coached in regards to other aspects of his activities.

Assume for example the following scenario:

1. LHO makes it to Cuba.

2. LHO, through some previous infiltration of arms, is provided with a Carcano weapon*

3. LHO manages to actually shoot Castro.

Then, whoever was behind the actions of LHO, would have most assuredly "coached" him into claiming "I am just a Patsy"!

One would most assuredly have to be a complete idiot to jump up and yell "Yeah, I did it"!

*The Carcano weapon was common throughout the Cuban Revolution, in the 6.5mm version as well as the 7.35mm caliber.

Therefore, one would not have even had to "infiltrate" into Cuba such a weapon as they were already there.

And, even though Castro had originally fostered a "BYOR" (Bring Your Own Rifle) during the early days of his revolution, after having gained power, he somewhat frowned on anyone who attempted to come into country with a rifle in their duffle bag.

Lastly, in these regards, one just may wish to look at all of that evidence which demonstrates that 7.35mm Carcano rifles were being fired all around Dallas, as well as the 7.35mm New Orleans connection, since other than sighting difference, the weapons (6.5mm v. 7.35mm) are the exact same operation.

And, since the 7.35mm version was being offered for sale through various gun magazines from as early as 1957, LHO could have easily ordered one of these weapons from some other gun distributor, just as he could have ordered a Model 91/38 in the 6.5mm Caliber from them as well.

The "Pointing" of the finger at Klein's was what we frequently referred to as EXCESS OVERKILL, when one takes into consideration that blank Klein's ads were also found among LHO's belongings at the Paine residence.

As well as the fact that LHO was familiar enough with the "Mail Watch" program to have known that any weapon sent to a P.O. Box, would have been a subject for Postal Inspectors.

Especially when one also received Communist; FPCC; ACLU; etc; etc; etc; mail at that box as well.

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Too much acting spoils the plot! Overacting ceases to convince!