Judyth Baker

[Pamela Brown]

Allan said:

Many of us are holding final judgment pending appearance of her book. Do you have any news on that front?

I don't know the exact status of Judyth's book; I wish I did have some news.

Let me re-iterate a point that seemed to be 'left out' of John's statement -- namely, that there is objective verification of the fact that both Judyth and Lee worked at Reily Coffee Company during the summer of 1963. It was hardly a large place, and it is likely that they knew each other. So, one way or another, Judyth is a witness to history, as she says. The question to be resolved and appropriately addressed once her book comes out is the nature of her relationship with him and the duration of it. Her statements are of considerable complexity. In addition, they do range into other areas previously unconnected to the assassination, such as Dr. Mary Sherman's work and mysterious murder.

Ironically, to some extent, Marina could probably verify information and details. She has, however, remained mum, do doubt in part because of the politics of those she has been lately working with, who apparently do not want her to come forth. Nonetheless, it is my understanding that she has said nothing to close the door on the possibility of a relationship having existed between Judyth and Lee.

Also, John seems comfortable supposing that Judyth would go out on a limb and 'imagine' a relationship with Lee. I have to say that seems a truly illogical statement that could only function with a veneer of sincere intent because of the crazy circus atmosphere surrounding the assassination in the first place.

[Charles Black]

Judyth Baker is probably one of the few topics that I have not engaged in on this or any of the other forums. I have read nearly everything that has been posted but I still do not feel strongly enough swayed to form an opinion.

What seems a little strange to me is why, other than the notoriety of the assassination, does anyone find it strange or unbelievable to acknowledge that two young adults who, tho married, were attracted to each other in their workplace and consequently had a relationship. I feel certain that this has literally ocurred millions of times. It no doubt has ocurred in the personal lives of some members of this forum.

Proving things that happened in the distant past is difficult; perhaps in many instances impossible. I really don't know what I could prove relating to my personal life when I was 23 years old, as was Lee.

I don't feel that either Lee or Judyth were experiencing a "Happy Days" type home life at the time.

I not only feel that their alledged affair was not unusual under those circumstances, but many such affairs have developed among persons thought to be much more emotionally stable than Lee and Judyth appeared to be.

As far as keeping this information concealed for a good number of years, I can think of many reason to keep "any" sexual affair secret......and most particularly this one.

I, being a natural skeptic, have not been convinced, as yet, by the arguments of either side and I therefore remain open.

However, I very much hope that her story can be proven true..... For many reasons.

Charlie Black

[Dawn Meredith]

Judyth's story on TMWKK was cencored. One has to wonder why?

I think she is gunuine. As Charles just pointed out just how does one "prove" a relationship from 43 years ago, epsecially since the other party has been dead for 42 of those years? It is my understanding that Marina has some evidence that may substantiate this relationship.

I wonder too if anyone ever received the tapes that Debra Conway was (allegedly) refusing to turn over to Judyth and/or someone close to her.

Why on earth would Judyth "invent" this story? She'd have to be NUTS and I did not have that impression of her.

Just my opinion, of course.

Dawn

[Pamela Brown]

Judyth's story on TMWKK was cencored. One has to wonder why?

Valid point. In addition, Judyth has been treated very badly by a number of people who had the opportunity to treat her fairly but for whatever 'reason' they decided not to. In addition, her statements have been sandbagged, her witnesses threatened, plus a great deal more, including, I have little doubt, many things I don't even yet know about.

If someone were not genuine, why would anyone go to extremes to 'disprove' them? Why not just ignore them?

I hope that Judyth will write a second volume someday describing the events that have taken place since she began to go public. I can assure you, just from what I do know, it will be a hair-raising page-turner.

[Nancy Eldreth]

I Finally got in touch with one of Marina's friends not in the states. In England. He was with Judyth Baker on the night that TMWKK was aired and saw with Marina her responses after viewing what Judyth said.

She was upset she called her a xxxx and no way is this true.

I did get my question over to Mariana and still waiting for the answer. He wants to know why I want the answer? WELL GEE why would I not want it.

Also I got again that Judyth is a person who isn't telling the truth. Again.

The question is "when they were seprated Lee and Marina was a letter written to one or the other during that time?" That is it. Simple question again.

Judyth claims that the letter was destroyed by Mary.

GUESS WHAT I WENT TROUGH MY EMAILS AND YES I GOT THAT ONE IT IS MORE THAN ONE ONE THIS ISSUE.

In fact I have a bit more on it. What Mary said to her and why she did it and that it did Marina a favor by her doing this. Yeah, RIGHT JUDYTH.

Well, I do think there is something to it but not to the extent that Judyth would like ones to believe.

Come ON Marina and answer the question please.............

Don't let the dead Mary Farrell get away with it.............

I sent an email over to Marina as well. Maybe I should send more of them.

IT is about time these two get into it...............

Maybe clear the air.

There is one email I read last week that I wish I caught it more at the time I read it. It said this, "Jimmy knew about the letter too." Easy to remember that one.

Why it caught my eye more now is because, I asked Files if he knew Judyth Baker.

The answer back is "yes, I do know Judyth Baker and I know her whole story as well."

James Files and Judyth Baker knew each other way back and I have Judyth emails to show this in just and only one of them and from what Files wrote to me as well.

This is another reason why I say that Judyth Baker is very involved.............

[Pamela Brown]

Nancy,

Oh no, don't tell me you are now making demands of Marina? I hope I am mistaken. It is your choice not to keep an open mind on Judyth's statements. Why not just take a break from all this involvement and let the principal people involved work it out on their own?

[Allan Eaglesham]

Pamela:

You said, "Why on earth would Judyth "invent" this story? She'd have to be NUTS and I did not have that impression of her."

Similar questions have been asked regarding others who have come forward to take the spotlight. People have various motives and hidden agendas for the things that they do -- my wife's family is full of them! In fact, we all have personality quirks of one sort or another, therefore such questions are not useful. Fifteen minutes of fame is very seductive for some.

The Judyth saga is now of several years standing. She has had the staunch support of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman, for example -- support that carries currency for me. We have been told that she has ample evidence supporting her claims. I for one will give that evidence a fair viewing when it appears in book form.

I recently asked Howard about the book and he said that he is not at liberty to talk about it -- "sworn to secrecy" I believe is the phrase he used. Hence my earlier question to you.

When can we expect the book to be available? Can anyone answer this question?

Allan

PS I am in contact with a researcher who called Marina about a year ago and brought up Judyth during the conversation. Marina indicated to him that she believes Judyth's story.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

There is one email I read last week that I wish I caught it more at the time I read it. It said this, "Jimmy knew about the letter too." Easy to remember that one.

Why it caught my eye more now is because, I asked Files if he knew Judyth Baker.

The answer back is "yes, I do know Judyth Baker and I know her whole story as well."

James Files and Judyth Baker knew each other way back and I have Judyth emails to show this in just and only one of them and from what Files wrote to me as well.

Well, well, who da thought it, what a happy coinsidence.

[Jack White]

Pam, Jack,

With all due respect to other members at this cherished site of which I am now fortunate to be part, aren't you engaging in the kind of mindset rigidity of which you accuse others? For example, the above paragraph is a total shoot from the hip and misrepresents me and a host of others here as having some sort of prejudiced 'position' regarding Ms Baker ("the Holy Grail of the assassination" - yikes).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all. My opinion of Judyth come not from what she says,

but from having studied every aspect of LHO for more than

40 years. By understanding the FACT of two Oswalds

(which Judyth denies), I am in a position to judge her veracity.

Unless you have read HARVEY&LEE by Armstrong, any

consideration of Judyth is a waste of time. Armstrong, who

studied all known documentation for 10 years, can point out

dozens of holes in her story.

Knowing all the facts is NOT ENGAGING IN MINDSET RIGIDITY.

Jack

[Guest John Gillespie]

Jack,

I found the Armstrong work on the two Oswalds compelling and convincing in its own context. I still have the printouts and pore over them from time to time. I don't think it's discussed enough.

By the way, your picture looks like Ed Asner. That's not a bad thing.

Have a nice weekend everyone,

JohnG

[Guest John Gillespie]

Poppycock...and it misses the point entirely, as usual. The only debate this could spark is whether bias or ignorance is more dangerous.

[John Simkin]

Ironically, John's position is indicative of one of the errors of orientation of most of us involved in attempting to resolve issues about the assassination.  We tend to decide whether a person is 'credible' or not, and, if they are, 'believe' everything they say, and if they are 'not', discount everything they say. As a result, we are either in a state of excitement or depression over one individual; as though they were in fact the Holy Grail of the assassination. 

This is an interesting point and is worth looking at in detail. A historian (or member of the jury) first looks at the evidence to support a particular story. So far, the evidence is very sparse and only appears to show that Judyth and Lee worked together at the Reily Coffee Company. I accept that from this information it is possible to conclude that it was possible that they did have a sexual relationship.

However, Judyth tells us a great deal more than this. It includes stories about working with David Ferrie, Dr. Alton Ochsner, Dr. Mary Sherman and Lee Harvey Oswald on a project to develop a new method to kill Fidel Castro. Several labs were involved, including a tumor and tissue culture processing mini-lab, at an apartment owned by Ferrie. It was Oswald’s role to courier the materials to Mexico City, where a medical student, doctor or intern was scheduled to take the materials to Cuba.

Judyth Baker also claims she met Guy Banister and Jack Ruby while in New Orleans who were involved in some plot to kill Kennedy. According to Judyth, Oswald volunteered to penetrate this group, even when he realized his life was in danger. Oswald could only speculate on who organized the conspiracy. He was aware that Mafia, Texas oil moguls, and conservative racists put up money to finance an assassination ring that seemed to include a wide variety of planners and participants. He was kept from learning the identities of the leaders, but expressed opinions that Carlos Marcello (godfather of New Orleans and Dallas) and his Mafia friends in Chicago and Miami, along with anti-Castroites and elements of the Secret Service and CIA, were probably involved in this plot. Oswald told Judyth he would do what he could to try to get the mission aborted, and that he had others who were going to help him to abort the assassination.

After the assassination of JFK and the arrest of Oswald, Judyth received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events. This explains why she kept quiet about this for the next 35 years.

Now it is possible all this true. However, without any evidence to back it up I have to conclude that all of it, rather than some of it, is untrue. For if she is willing to lie about some of it, she is obvious willing to lie about all of it.

For many years she has been arguing that she has evidence to support this story and that it will be appearing in this long awaited book. The problem is that it seems she cannot get a publisher. Maybe the reason for this is that she has not got the evidence to back up the story.

I put Judyth Baker in the same category as James Files and Chancey Holt. I think the way that some researchers have embraced these two stories has discredited the research community. It has definitely given the John McAdams of this world plenty of ammunition against us. The most damaging criticism is that we have a tendency to believe things without the evidence. I am afraid, that some researchers do fall into that category.

[Jack White]

John expresses my opinion exactly when he says:

"I put Judyth Baker in the same category as James Files and Chancey Holt. I think the way that some researchers have embraced these two stories has discredited the research community. It has definitely given the John McAdams of this world plenty of ammunition against us. The most damaging criticism is that we have a tendency to believe things without the evidence. I am afraid, that some researchers do fall into that category. "

Jack

[John Geraghty]

Jack,

  I found the Armstrong work on the two Oswalds compelling and convincing in its own context.  I still have the printouts and pore over them from time to time.  I don't think it's discussed enough.

  By the way, your picture looks like Ed Asner.  That's not a bad thing.

Have a nice weekend everyone,

JohnG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ed Asner played Guy Bannister in JFK the film.

John

[Guest John Gillespie]

John,

Yeah, and Jack Lemmon played Jack Martin (with Jerry Mathers as The Beaver). Must have had that in mind, such as it is.

It's in the late afternoon here, it's silly putty time and I'm hoping all is well wherever the Truth Seekers are...

Regards,

JohnG