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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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Captain Fritz's purported interrogation notes were released by the ARRB in November 1997.

Although Fritz did indeed take these notes down, however, he did not do so during any of the interrogation sessions.

They are in fact a copy he made in his own hand of the interrogation notes of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout.

Understanding this fact is essential if we are to make sense of what is in these notes--and reconstruct how Oswald actually answered key questions under interrogation.

As we have seen, the 'Fritz notes' are not in fact contemporaneous notes taken by Fritz himself, but the copy he himself made of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's contemporaneous notes.

This fact is nicely brought home in the following little detail:

jRFtfj4.jpg

Myself: if these notes were really being written by Fritz in real time during the interrogation session, the last thing he would need to be noting down for future reference would be the duh-level-obvious fact that he himself is one of the people present in the room!

No, Fritz is copying from Bookhout's interrogation notes and, seeing the word 'Fritz', naturally translating it as 'myself'.

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Here is the fifth and final page of the 'Fritz notes':

H5mSB2N.jpg

From his own original of these notes Bookhout wrote up his short and sweet Interrogation Report #5:

Date 11/25/63
Lee Harvey Oswald was interviewed at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, at 6:35 p.m. ...

Captain J. W. Fritz exhibited to Lee Harvey Oswald a photograph which had been obtained by the Dallas Police Department in a search by search warrant, of the garage at the residence of Mrs. Ruth Paine, located at Irving, Texas, which photograph reflects Oswald holding a rifle and wearing a holstered pistol. Oswald was asked if this was a photograph of himself. Oswald stated that he would not discuss the photograph without advice of an attorney. He stated that the head of the individual in the photograph could be his but that it was entirely possible that the Police Department had superimposed this part of the photograph over the body of someone else. He pointed out that numerous news media had snapped his photograph during the day and the possibility existed that the police had doctored up this photograph.

Oswald denied that he had purchased any rifle form Kleins Store in Chicago, Illinois.

Oswald complained of a lineup wherein he had not been granted a request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in the lineup.

on 11/23/63 at Dallas, Texas. File#DL89-43 by Special Agent James W. Bookhout /wvm. Date dictated 11/24/63.

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Hi Sean,

Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.

Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:

The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.

Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.

Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.

Overall, this thread has been a great ride.

Onward.

Hi Richard,

I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40.

To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator:

giLhGBH.jpg

Thanks for posting this report, Sean. I have not seen it before.

Regarding the two Men that passed by Mooney, it is definitely my belief that they end up being the Fake SS Agents at the rear entrance a few minutes later. I am wondering now if they paused at the 2nd floor elevator (after passing Mooney on the stairs) and are the same two men that Vicky Adams runs into in the West Elevator in her attempt to go back upstairs.

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Hi Sean,

Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.

Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:

The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.

Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.

Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.

Overall, this thread has been a great ride.

Onward.

Hi Richard,

I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40.

To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator:

giLhGBH.jpg

Thanks for posting this report, Sean. I have not seen it before.

Regarding the two Men that passed by Mooney, it is definitely my belief that they end up being the Fake SS Agents at the rear entrance a few minutes later. I am wondering now if they paused at the 2nd floor elevator (after passing Mooney on the stairs) and are the same two men that Vicky Adams runs into in the West Elevator in her attempt to go back upstairs.

Hello Richard

Would it make sense that these two men in suits and hats would be trying to go back up to the upper floors of the TSBD in an elevator after just having descended the stairs? I should think, if they were part of the conspiracy, they would be making their way directly to an exit.

That being said, is it possible to ID these two men Vicki Adams encountered on the elevator at the 2nd floor?

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Hi Sean,

Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.

Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:

The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.

Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.

Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.

Overall, this thread has been a great ride.

Onward.

Hi Richard,

I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40.

To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator:

giLhGBH.jpg

Thanks for posting this report, Sean. I have not seen it before.

Regarding the two Men that passed by Mooney, it is definitely my belief that they end up being the Fake SS Agents at the rear entrance a few minutes later. I am wondering now if they paused at the 2nd floor elevator (after passing Mooney on the stairs) and are the same two men that Vicky Adams runs into in the West Elevator in her attempt to go back upstairs.

Hello Richard

Would it make sense that these two men in suits and hats would be trying to go back up to the upper floors of the TSBD in an elevator after just having descended the stairs? I should think, if they were part of the conspiracy, they would be making their way directly to an exit.

That being said, is it possible to ID these two men Vicki Adams encountered on the elevator at the 2nd floor?

Robert,

No, I do not think these men wanted to go back upstairs. My view is this:

Mooney encounters two men in plain clothes coming down the stairs just as he is ascending the stairs from the 2nd floor. Mooney does not question them. They do not question him (remember Mooney is also in plain clothes). Very odd if these are all police officers who do not recognize each other. These two men stop at the 2nd floor and step into the elevator that has no power. There are a couple reasons they may have done this: 1. To take the elevator to the 1st floor to avoid any more confrontations on the stairs, or 2) They may be waiting there to meet someone else.

It is at this point that Vicky Adams shows up hoping to use the elevator to get to the 4th floor. They show her the elevator has no power and she heads up the stairs. After a few moments, they walk down the stairs, out the back door and take up a position there posing briefly as Secret Service Men (apparently with IDs) and are seen here by Officer Harkness. This is the last sighting of these two men. At some point, they very quickly melt away from the story and are never heard of or from again.

Edit: One more thing that I should have emphasized above. If my scenario is correct, These two unidentified men paused twice: once in the elevator and again on the rear dock. You would think their basic instinct would be to get away as quickly as possible. So it seems reasonable they were lingering on the 2nd floor and again at the rear entrance for a good reason. Could they have been waiting for someone else? There are several candidates that pop into my mind. ...

Edited by Richard Hocking

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To track police chief Jesse Curry's evolving statements to reporters over the Friday and the Saturday about the first post-assassination sighting of Oswald is to track the evolution of the story itself.

**

On the Friday evening Curry was admitting candidly that Oswald had been stopped leaving the building very shortly after the assassination (click to enlarge):

c3x7KJM.png

I believe what we are reading here is nothing less than an account of Oswald/Prayer Man's having been asked by Marrion Baker if he worked there (i.e. could he point him to the stairs), but with a crucial DPD spin of misprision: the incident is being represented not as an incident clearly exonerative of Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter but as a clear indicator of Oswald's guilt.

Oswald is being described not as a man who appeared on the front steps in time for the shooting itself (Curry by this stage probably isn't even aware that Oswald was making this very claim in custody, isn't even aware that he himself is blurting out the details of Oswald's alibi) but as a man who had just that moment reached the front of the building and was leaving with suspicious haste (click to enlarge):

khQHT7R.jpg

DVIHRb3.jpg

This is not one of those early false rumours, it is one of those early true facts--and Curry is only too happy to tell the world about it:

A2jWMmA.jpg

Edited by Sean Murphy

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Curry on the Friday evening needs to stress the "immediate" nature of the Oswald-Officer incident, and hence the incriminatingly immediate nature of Oswald's departure from the building.

But as soon as it becomes clear just how immediate the incident was, how soon after the last shot had been fired, he shuts the hell up.

And so the next day we find him going out to bat with a very different story altogether:

gLQ04OL.jpg

And again:

Q0BDPrr.jpg

**

From: Oswald being stopped as he walked out the front entrance

to: Oswald being seen sitting in a second-floor lunchroom:

the fix was in.

**

But, as we shall see, it didn't work.

Edited by Sean Murphy

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From: Oswald being stopped as he walked out the front entrance

to: Oswald being seen sitting in a second-floor lunchroom:

the fix was in.

**

But, as we shall see, it didn't work.

Rogers would stand on the stage dressed in his cowboy outfit, leisurely twirling a lariat, while he commented on recent news stories.

He often started his Midnight Frolic monologues

by saying something like:

Well, what shall I talk about?

I ain’t got anything funny to say.

All I know is what I read in the papers.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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The theory I've been outlining on this thread does not require Roy Truly to be 'in' on the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.

If Truly had really vouched for a non-employee by the third or fourth floor rear stairway, then it would be hard to see how he could not have been in on the plot.

But my theory has him performing actions that are not suspicious.

Nor are they even foolhardy.

Rather than take to the rear stairs ahead of an armed officer, as per the later lunchroom fiction, Truly simply gets on an elevator with him and (as per Bonnie Ray Williams's information) stays on the elevator while Baker gets off to check out upper floors.

**

But if Truly is innocent, why does he later shop Oswald to Captain Fritz as 'missing' so very quickly?

Does this not indicate a key role for him in the patsification of his employee?

Not necessarily.

It has always been deeply puzzling why Truly should tell Fritz about Oswald without mentioning in the same breath that he had seen this employee of his in the second-floor lunchroom right after the shooting.

Surely it would have been salient information?

**

I believe what may have actually happened is this:

Truly ran into the first floor after Baker and, just as Baker was engaging with Oswald/Prayer Man, introduced himself and offered to accompany the officer.

After coming down from the roof with Baker, he noticed that Oswald was gone and incorrectly assumed that Oswald must have been on his way out of the building when Baker had passed him.

This strikes him--understandably--as an odd and indecent kind of haste on his employee's part and so he conscientiously reports it to Fritz.

In alerting Fritz to Oswald, however, the very furthest thing from his mind is that Oswald could be an actual shooter.

All he is worried about is that Oswald may have been in some way involved in the plot such that he needed to leave the scene very quickly.

**

What must have been Truly's astonishment when he later learned that Oswald was being treated by police as--of all ridiculous things!--the sixth-floor shooter?

He must have felt much as Marrion Baker had when he saw Oswald being brought into the Homicide Office and was told this was the man the police had been after.

Edited by Sean Murphy

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He must have felt much as Marrion Baker had when he saw Oswald being brought into the Homicide Office and was told this was the man the police had been after.

Good catch!

In alerting Fritz to Oswald, however, the very furthest thing from his mind is that Oswald could be an actual shooter.

All he is worried about is that Oswald may have been in some way involved in the plot such that he needed to leave the scene very quickly.

Roy Truly,

The world's first

JFK Conspiracy Theorist!

I love it!

And Truly suspected Oz of being a plotter

Because

It seemed like a good idea

At the time.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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And somewhere, Jack Dougherty has to fit in here.

Hopefully, this can all be pieced together

and help explain the movements of the first responders

that entered the TSBD after the shots.

Thank you Richard

For reminding us.

Which reminds me that even a busted clock

Is right twice a day.

Warren had to admit the 2nd floor lunch room Baker-Oz encounter

Because ALL the evidence supports it.

All due respects to Mr. Murphy.

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To track police chief Jesse Curry's evolving statements to reporters over the Friday and the Saturday about the first post-assassination sighting of Oswald is to track the evolution of the story itself.

The history of the cover-up is, at one level, a series of sustained and inter-connected assaults upon certain key chains of causality. Fraudulent chronologies – filmic, text-narrative, and the tabular - are, like denied or de-contextualised attributions, weapons to be wielded in the war against popular comprehension of what really happened and when.

Why transcript 1327C is a Fraud, post #5, 24 October 2007

Terrific work, Sean, for which many thanks.

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Hello Sean

Although most people are likely already aware of this fact, I just learned, on another thread, that the east and west elevators were back to back, with the west elevator entrance facing the stairs in the NW corner of the building, and the east elevator entrance facing the east side of the building.

While it is also clear that the slats on the front of the elevators allowed a person to see out of (or into) the elevator car, was it also possible to see out the back wall of these elevators; in particular, the west elevator?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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Hello Sean

Although most people are likely already aware of this fact, I just learned, on another thread, that the east and west elevators were back to back, with the west elevator entrance facing the stairs in the NW corner of the building, and the east elevator entrance facing the east side of the building.

While it is also clear that the slats on the front of the elevators allowed a person to see out of (or into) the elevator car, was it also possible to see out the back wall of these elevators; in particular, the west elevator?

Hi Robert,

Not sure about the west elevator, but Roy Truly does mention in his WC testimony that the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal and afforded no view.

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Hello Sean

Although most people are likely already aware of this fact, I just learned, on another thread, that the east and west elevators were back to back, with the west elevator entrance facing the stairs in the NW corner of the building, and the east elevator entrance facing the east side of the building.

While it is also clear that the slats on the front of the elevators allowed a person to see out of (or into) the elevator car, was it also possible to see out the back wall of these elevators; in particular, the west elevator?

Hi Robert,

Not sure about the west elevator, but Roy Truly does mention in his WC testimony that the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal and afforded no view.

Hello Sean

I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.

From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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