Bill Simpich's State Secret

[Mark Knight]

I find it hard to believe that, at this late date, Mr. Trejo didn't understand that Bundy was in the White House Situation Room, and was not in Dallas.

That's quite an important detail to miss.

[Paul Trejo]

David, the AF1 transcripts show no signs of a call from Johnson to Hoover. The first indication of a call between the two is from Johnson to Hoover after Johnson is back in DC. That one is particularly interesting as Manchester speaks of it in conjunction of a whole series of other calls and gives specific times, suggesting he took it from Johnson's call log. However when I investigated the call log, there is no sign of it, suggesting an altered log. That would be very consistent with the wiping of the Saturday morning Hoover to Johnson call on the tape and the apparent deletion of a good portion of the transcript of that call.

To provide more context, in what we do have of that call Hoover is telling Johnson of the impersonation of Oswald in MC, implying that there were other individuals in and around Oswald in some fashion. However in the transcript, Johnson - who had called Hoover in the first place to ask about Mexico City, makes absolutely no response to that and that's pretty much were things go dark. To my mind there is every impression of Johnson beginning to shut down Hoover just as the calls from Johnson's staff shut down Texas law enforcement the previous evening.

Well, Larry, it seems that lots of folks have the full cache of FBI memos from J. Edgar Hoover on 11/22/1963 released in FOIA requests pursuant to the JFK Records Act of 1992.

I'm sort of surprised that Professor Wrone claims to have identified an FBI memo around 4pm EST on 11/22/1963 that suggests to him that Hoover invented the "Lone Shooter" theory "overlooking the banks of the Potomac" -- while countless JFK researchers have overlooked this gem.

David Josephs is simply convinced that Professor Wrone is mistaken.

Yet if Wrone is actually correct, and produces this memo, then one of my first questions will be, "How did everybody else miss this?"

Is it possible that the prejudice of Mark Lane and Jim Garrison that the CIA killed JFK has become so ingrained in the CT community that super-clues like this simply go unrecognized?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Trejo...without that FBI memo, you're building a rather grand mansion on a foundation of speculation.

"IF" isn't fact; you really need to latch onto that concept.

IF the FBI memo that Wrone is to produce actually says what he claims it does, THEN you have a foundation upon which to build. If it does NOT, then your entire foundation crumbles.

Than's NOT prejudice; it's called "skepticism."

[Paul Trejo]

That's fine, Mark. Let's wait and see what Professor of History David R. Wrone has to share with us. If it turns out to be nothing, then nothing has changed around here after all.

However, if he turns out to be correct -- then I predict that we will behold the second Revolution in JFK Research in the past year.

The first was the Simpich Mole Hunt (2014) which demonstrates conclusively (IMHO) that the CIA high-command is innocent of the JFK murder plot.

The second will be the Hoover Lone Nut Theory, now dated at 3PM CST 11/22/1963 -- which demonstrates a National Security agenda for the Warren Commission, and demonstrates solidly that Hoover and the FBI are innocent of the JFK murder plot.

Think of how many hundreds of CT books have already been made obsolete by Bill Simpich. An equal number will be made obsolete by Professor Wrone, I predict.

If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But first let's wait and see.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

What surprises me the most about this line of dialog is you have to believe

that Hoover was somehow in a position of such strength as to be able to override the hand of

the NSC, JCS, NSA, CFR and any number of higher level committees of men "running things" intertwining Military, Industry and Congress.

I'm sorry Paul, a single memo does not rearrange the food chain in DC or the USA at the time.

Hoover was TOLD what to do by those who knew he had no choice. He and the FBI were Muscle, a Mechanic hoping to be Facilitator - to play at the big table.

He was thrown out of external intelligence in '45 and fought to keep everything he had built in the Western Hemisphere.

The idea that Hoover could unilaterally decide that the event was not a conspiracy - domestic OR international - is not one that jives with how we understand the world works or worked at that time..

am I wrong ?

[Paul Trejo]

What surprises me the most about this line of dialog is you have to believe

that Hoover was somehow in a position of such strength as to be able to override the hand of

the NSC, JCS, NSA, CFR and any number of higher level committees of men "running things" intertwining Military, Industry and Congress.

I'm sorry Paul, a single memo does not rearrange the food chain in DC or the USA at the time.

Hoover was TOLD what to do by those who knew he had no choice. He and the FBI were Muscle, a Mechanic hoping to be Facilitator - to play at the big table.

He was thrown out of external intelligence in '45 and fought to keep everything he had built in the Western Hemisphere.

The idea that Hoover could unilaterally decide that the event was not a conspiracy - domestic OR international - is not one that jives with how we understand the world works or worked at that time..

am I wrong ?

Yes, David, I think you're wrong about that. In my view of US Government, civilians rule -- not the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

As everybody knows, we have the Supreme Court (Judicial) the Congress (Legislative) and the President (Executive). J. Edgar Hoover and his FBI belonged to the Executive Branch, reporting to the Attorney General, who reported to the President.

Although the JCS had strong feelings about Communism -- nevertheless, according to the US Constitution, they had to follow the orders of the President. The NSC, NSA and CFR are all merely *advisors* to the US President, and have no Constitutional authority on their own.

In this particular case, J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ were not only co-workers, but also personal friends. They lived close to each other in DC. They talked to each other often, on a personal basis (according to reporter Jack Anderson).

My theory is that shortly after Hoover had his 3pm CST epiphany (per Wrone) he got the message to LBJ (via Bundy) and LBJ bought it. LBJ explicitly confirmed for J. Edgar Hoover the following in one of their November conversations about the JFK murder:

"I've got more confidence in your judgment than anybody in town. So you just put down some of the things you think ought to happen and I won't involve you or quote you or get you in jurisdictional disputes or anything, but I'd like to at least advocate them as my opinion." (LBJ to Hoover, 11/29/1963)

So, even before the workday of 11/22/1963 was over, both Hoover and LBJ had given the FBI, the CIA, the JCS, the NSC, the NSA and the CFR (including Allen Dulles) their marching orders. That's how I see it.

Of course, everything I say about Hoover will depend upon what Professor Wrone actually produces. I'll wait patiently.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Yes, David, I think you're wrong about that. In my view of US Government, civilians rule -- not the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Earth to Paul, Earth to Paul... come in Paul....

I've heard of deniers and those with their heads in the sand but please don't insult our intelligence with what you HOPE is the way things are run rather than how they are actually run.

Civilians have virtually NEVER ruled this or any country... now I understand the fog you are looking thru trying to make sense of an event that occurs outside your potential universe.

Your civics lesson notwithstanding - you really need to read None Dare Call It Conspiracy as a simple start.

Unless you want to lump the MICC into "civilians"... I see we are not even talking the same language.

How we doing with Wrone?

[Paul Trejo]

Yes, David, I think you're wrong about that. In my view of US Government, civilians rule -- not the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Earth to Paul, Earth to Paul... come in Paul....

I've heard of deniers and those with their heads in the sand but please don't insult our intelligence with what you HOPE is the way things are run rather than how they are actually run.

Civilians have virtually NEVER ruled this or any country... now I understand the fog you are looking thru trying to make sense of an event that occurs outside your potential universe.

Your civics lesson notwithstanding - you really need to read None Dare Call It Conspiracy as a simple start.

Unless you want to lump the MICC into "civilians"... I see we are not even talking the same language.

How we doing with Wrone?

No final word yet from Professor Wrone. As for your political standpoint, David, I find it too cynical for my taste.

I'm not naïve about politics, about Watergate, about the CIA, about Jim Crow, about Neo-cons who want perpetual war, and so forth.

Yet I'm not overboard with cynicism, either. I can still criticize the FBI and CIA while realizing that, in this solitary case of the JFK murder, they were taken by surprise.

I'm holding my breath for Professor Wrone, however. I'll keep hoping even if others have already given up.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Yes, David, I think you're wrong about that. In my view of US Government, civilians rule -- not the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Earth to Paul, Earth to Paul... come in Paul....

I've heard of deniers and those with their heads in the sand but please don't insult our intelligence with what you HOPE is the way things are run rather than how they are actually run.

Civilians have virtually NEVER ruled this or any country... now I understand the fog you are looking thru trying to make sense of an event that occurs outside your potential universe.

Your civics lesson notwithstanding - you really need to read None Dare Call It Conspiracy as a simple start.

Unless you want to lump the MICC into "civilians"... I see we are not even talking the same language.

How we doing with Wrone?

No final word yet from Professor Wrone. As for your political standpoint, David, I find it too cynical for my taste.

I'm not naïve about politics, about Watergate, about the CIA, about Jim Crow, about Neo-cons who want perpetual war, and so forth.

Yet I'm not overboard with cynicism, either. I can still criticize the FBI and CIA while realizing that, in this solitary case of the JFK murder, they were taken by surprise.

I'm holding my breath for Professor Wrone, however. I'll keep hoping even if others have already given up.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

What you call cynical I call reality... Not sure what you mean by this:

"in this solitary case of the JFK murder, they were taken by surprise."

Hoover knew the CIA was messing with him and the FBI during most the summer of 63 and definitely when Lee HENRY comes across their desk in mid October... he was looking tyring to find info on Oswald from 10/22 until 11/23 with nothing but negative results - all the while the CIA and State Dept are telling him a completely different story...

As for solitary case... even Hoover disagrees with that assessment...

"Only to mention TWO of their instances of double dealing"

Simple question Paul - Have you read None Dare? Read any of the Swearingen books (not great JFK stuff but wonderful inside the crooked FBI stuff).

How exactly do you think runs things in this world anyway? Elected Civilians?

[Paul Trejo]

What you call cynical I call reality... Not sure what you mean by this:

"in this solitary case of the JFK murder, they were taken by surprise."

Hoover knew the CIA was messing with him and the FBI during most the summer of 63 and definitely when Lee HENRY comes across their desk in mid October... he was looking tyring to find info on Oswald from 10/22 until 11/23 with nothing but negative results - all the while the CIA and State Dept are telling him a completely different story...

As for solitary case... even Hoover disagrees with that assessment...

"Only to mention TWO of their instances of double dealing"

Simple question Paul - Have you read None Dare? Read any of the Swearingen books (not great JFK stuff but wonderful inside the crooked FBI stuff).

How exactly do you think runs things in this world anyway? Elected Civilians?

As usual, David, we're looking at the same data and interpreting it differently.

I've enjoyed reading books by former FBI Agent Wesley "Wes" Swearingen, and even enjoyed a brief correspondence with him about Harry Dean. Yet we must remember that Wes was a disgruntled FBI employee.

Wes was researching the JFK murder in the course of his regular duties in Chicago, when the 11/22/1963 mandate by Hoover to promote only a "Lone Nut" Oswald was announced. But Wes had already found some important suspects in Chicago's crime and crooked cop underworld. Wes was sure that the Director would change his mind after seeing his hard data -- but the FBI senior staff stomped on Wes' report very hard, and Wes was soon re-stationed in some FBI office out in the boonies, relegated to tracking interstate stolen vehicles.

Wes was crushed. He continued his own JFK research independently. Wes remains convinced that Richard Cain, a crooked Chicago cop who was allied with the Mafia, was a leading figure in the JFK murder. He never changed his mind about that certainty.

Yet Wes Swearingen, like Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Jim Marrs and so many other JFK Researchers, never understood that J. Edgar Hoover and his Warren Commission quislings had a totally different agenda than the Truth about the JFK murder -- not to protect the killers, but rather, National Security, i.e. to prevent riots in the streets of America.

We must remember that only a little more than a year before the JFK murder, there was a major race riot on the campus of Ole Miss University (9/1962), where hundreds were wounded and two were killed. This was in protest against one of the implications of Earl Warren's 1954 Brown Decision.

So, David, even in the 5:15pm 11/22/1963 FBI letter that you posted a few days ago, we see Hoover speculating that "Segregationist Madmen" might have been the culprits in the JFK murder. Hoover was in a strong position to speculate.

ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth had reported to the FBI that "Edwin Walker and the MInutemen" were his prime suspects for this sort of paramilitary action in Dallas. Ellsworth was simply ignored.

Hoover's attention was on National Security. He didn't have enough FBI men to go after the Minutemen alone -- and if we got the US Military involved in arresting the heavily armed Minutemen, then the USSR would have had a field day of mocking the USA, and might even have been tempted to meddle in USA domestic affairs -- which could have ignited World War III.

It was crucial for LBJ, Hoover, Dulles and Warren to prevent a National Security nightmare. That was the reason that the Truth about the JFK murder (and so the Truth about Lee Harvey Oswald) had to be made Top Secret for an indefinite amount of time.

Wes Swearingen had to settle for his demotion, and he never forgave Hoover. Wes ended his book, "To Kill a President" with an attack on Hoover's parentage, suggesting that Hoover was part African-American. Wes meant this as an expression of his lifelong rage against Hoover.

But Hoover is very much misunderstood, IMHO, especially by JFK Researchers who follow Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Jim Marrs and the mainstream CT writers.

Hoover was frustrated with the CIA with regard to the JFK murder, because the CIA would not give a straight answer about Mexico City -- nothing that Hoover wanted to hear. Hoover only wanted to hear "Lone Nut" confirmation. But the CIA could not "confirm, deny or discuss" their Lee Harvey Oswald 201 file, because that file had already become part of an ultra-Top Secret CIA Mole Hunt (the Simpich Mole Hunt), and therefore most CIA agents and clerks had no idea that this big Russian dude was in no way Lee Harvey Oswald, or that Lee's middle name really wasn't "Henry."

It was sheer accident that the Simpich Mole Hunt coincided with Hoover's demand for absolute US government cooperation in his "Lone Nut" theory. It took months to sort out the bureaucratic confusion.

That's why Hoover got so frustrated. He already had a few FBI files on Lee Harvey Oswald, and then he gets this Mole Hunt 201 File, which made it appear that the CIA was defying him. No wonder he was frustrated.

Now that we have a full disclosure of the CIA Mole Hunt (Simpich, 2014), we can understand the chaos of the CIA during and after 11/22/1963, as well as Hoover's rational frustration with them.

Ultimately, however, Hoover and the CIA cooperated nicely in the Warren Commission Report. They finally made up and shook hands.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited May 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Until there is some proof there is nothing Paul.

Basing all his actions on an unproven supposition and then your ability to tell us what was in his mind at any moment puts you in a class all by yourself.

Ultimately, however, Hoover and the CIA cooperated nicely in the Warren Commission Report. They finally made up and shook hands.

and this has to be one of the most uniformed comments I've ever seen here.

time to Put up or shut already Paul.... post what you KNOW, not what you believe.

K?

[Paul Trejo]

BUMP

Edited May 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Guest Mark Valenti]

"Until there is some proof there is nothing Paul.

Basing all his actions on an unproven supposition and then your ability to tell us what was in his mind at any moment puts you in a class all by yourself.

time to Put up or shut already Paul.... post what you KNOW, not what you believe."

Edited May 15, 2015 by Mark Valenti

[Paul Trejo]

Until there is some proof there is nothing Paul.

Basing all his actions on an unproven supposition and then your ability to tell us what was in his mind at any moment puts you in a class all by yourself.

Ultimately, however, Hoover and the CIA cooperated nicely in the Warren Commission Report. They finally made up and shook hands.

And this has to be one of the most uniformed comments I've ever seen here.

Time to Put up or shut already Paul.... post what you KNOW, not what you believe.

K?

Well, David, have you never read the Warren Report? Did you ever notice that it is consistent, even when dead wrong?

This is HARD PROOF that the FBI and the CIA finally got their act together and agreed on something.

So, there.

You might try softening your rhetoric, David. A little kindness never hurt anybody.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Hooray! Professor David R. Wrone has replied to my request for his source(s) regarding his statement that J. Edgar Hoover invented the "Lone Shooter" mythology by himself before 3pm CST (4pm EST) on 11/22/1963. Here is what he told me this evening:

-------------------- BEGIN ATTACHMENT FROM DR. WRONE 5/15/2015 -------------------

...The FBI serial numbers on the Hoover memos that I have are, viz

All on 11/22/1963 -- Hoover to staff officials (Eastern Standard Time):

* 1:43pm 62 109060-55;

* 2:21pm 62 109060-56;

* 4:01pm 62 109060-59;

* 5:15pm 62 109060-57.

Also: Morrell to Wick, 02/20/1967

* 62 109060-4496 which discusses when Hoover told Nixon at 4pm (EST) on 11/22 that a commie had killed JFK.

Dallas time would be 3.00

w

------------------------- END ATTACHMENT FROM DR. WRONE 5/15/2015 ---------------------------

I knew he'd come through.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo