Bill Simpich's State Secret

[Paul Trejo]

Good luck Paul. Some day you might have to concede that Hoover was the very opposite of a hero. He didn't save the country from anything. He did his level best to keep the truth from coming out to his everlasting shame.

Btw am I correct that Simpich takes no position on whether Oswald was in MC?

Well, Paul B., let's wait and see what Professor Wrone has to say about his sources.

Also, Bill Simpich is on this thread, so your question about his position should really be addressed to him, right?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

OK, good news this morning.

Professor David R. Wrone, now 82 years old, was kind enough to respond to my question about his source for his radical statement that J. Edgar Hoover invented the Lone Nut theory of Lee Harvey OSWALD about one hour after the arrest of OSWALD on the day JFK was murdered.

Dr. Wrone is currently ill, so let's wish him a speedy recovery. Yet he assures me that he got this historical information from an FBI memo dated 11/22/1963. He will peruse his private files to locate the exact document, and will tell me as soon as possible when he finds it.

So, hold on to your hats, people, and get ready to modify your CT's. Truth is on the way.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

OK, good news this morning.

Professor David R. Wrone, now 82 years old, was kind enough to respond to my question about his source for his radical statement that J. Edgar Hoover invented the Lone Nut theory of Lee Harvey OSWALD about one hour after the arrest of OSWALD on the day JFK was murdered.

Dr. Wrone is currently ill, so let's wish him a speedy recovery. Yet he assures me that he got this historical information from an FBI memo dated 11/22/1963. He will peruse his private files to locate the exact document, and will tell me as soon as possible when he finds it.

So, hold on to your hats, people, and get ready to modify your CT's. Truth is on the way.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Looking forward to it Paul... All I could find was this letter from Hoover to his Senior Staff from 5:15pm on the 22nd.

Seems to me he is saying the man is a leftist nut with extremeist, pro-Castro leanings (most likely from the FPCC assisgnment the FBI gave him in the first place)

Be interesting to see a document that states Hoover's conclusion before an investigation even begins and then conveying that conclusion to Bundy somehow - when the FBI was known for NEVER offering a conclusion in their investigations... only info for analysis and consideration.

FPCC and he worked in the building - so he must be a Lone Nut killer with no Castro connections - nice try Paul, but until you have something which refutes the documents I keep posting, I does seem that Hoover was very much taken in b y the Ozzie in Mexico info that rears it's head again just when it needs to...

Please post that info when you get it and Good Wishes to Wrone for a speedy recovery

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

Looking forward to it Paul...All I could find was this letter from Hoover to his Senior Staff from 5:15pm on the 22nd.

Seems to me he is saying the man is a leftist nut with extremeist, pro-Castro leanings (most likely from the FPCC assisgnment the FBI gave him in the first place)

Be interesting to see a document that states Hoover's conclusion before an investigation even begins and then conveying that conclusion to Bundy somehow - when the FBI was known for NEVER offering a conclusion in their investigations... only info for analysis and consideration.

FPCC and he worked in the building - so he must be a Lone Nut killer with no Castro connections - nice try Paul, but until you have something which refutes the documents I keep posting, I does seem that Hoover was very much taken in by the Ozzie in Mexico info that rears it's head again just when it needs to...

Please post that info when you get it and Good Wishes to Wrone for a speedy recovery

DJ

Well, David, you yourself posted a nice post from the FBI, dated 5:15 EST, which is 4:15 CST on 11/22/1963. I myself have never seen that FBI memo before. I wonder what memo Professor Wrone has in mind.

Yet let's talk about this memo that you found, David, while we're waiting for the Professor.

The keynote seems to be that Hoover was very aware of OSWALD as a member of the FPCC. Yet that membership only became known in the summer of 1963, in New Orleans, when OSWALD communicated over US Post with the leaders of the FPCC in New York. Evidently the FBI watched OSWALD in New Orleans, and probably spied on these postal letters (as OSWALD probably expected or even planned).

Since Guy Banister's address was stamped on some of OSWALD's handouts in New Orleans, it is also possible that Guy Banister himself -- a former employee of J. Edgar Hoover -- would keep Hoover personally informed about Lee Harvey OSWALD and his FPCC activities in New Orleans.

You remark, David, that usually the FBI would "never" offer a conclusion, but only an analysis of data. Yet this was an extra-special case, because the US President was assassinated. So, FBI procedures had to change.

For one thing, National Security had to be considered -- which never arises in ordinary murder cases.

Also, David, you remark that Hoover seemed to be "very much taken in" by the whole Mexico City episode. Well, IMHO Hoover was merely worried that the CIA would provide data that *contradicted* his own "Lone Nut" theory.

Indeed, the CIA couldn't get their story straight -- it took months -- probably because, as Bill Simpich showed, the CIA high-command was involved in an Ultra-Top Secret Mole Hunt for the Impersonators of OSWALD in Mexico City. This ultra-secrecy would interfere with the smooth interaction between CIA and FBI in any exchange of data involving Lee Harvey OSWALD.

In any case, David, you can be sure that I'll post the data from Professor Wrone within minutes after I receive it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 12, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

I look forward to it Paul...

With regards to the rest of your post...

Have you considered that Oswald was placed as a NOLA FPCC rep to uncover others sympathetic to the cause?

A PO Box as a location for a meeting helps no one so having him change the handbills from 4907 Magazine or 544 Camp to a POBox suggests to me that the FPCC in NOLA was not all that serious in finding anyone. I also believe that the PO Box was only printed on the AJ Hidell flyers while the LH Oswald flyers have an actual address.

As for the FBI/Hoover stating a conclusion being out of the norm... I was not me but the Warren Commissioners who say this... that the FBI NEVER provides a conclusion, especially one so early in an investigation which negates the whole point of the investigation in the first place... I can find the references - I think they are in the early exec session... Dulles mentions it here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1323&relPageId=14&search=conclusion

As to your Mexico comments... I'll need to let them go since I believe you are about as far off from the reality of the event as a person can be. Until you can actually prove Hoover as the author of the Lone Nut theory, using it as a portion of an argument holds no water.

Prove it first THEN use it to support a theory... and we don't want Wrone's opinion... we need something to corroborate the statement and conflicts with the 11/22 memo I just posted as awell as the Dec 12th memo which both state the opposite of what you and Wrone are contending... that Oswald was leftist and pro-Castro and was not alone.

If Hoover was doing anything to CYA, it had to do with the FBI being the reason he was doing FPCC work and was with Banister et al to begin with...

DJ

Edited May 11, 2015 by David Josephs

[Paul Trejo]

...As to your Mexico comments... I'll need to let them go since I believe you are about as far off from the reality of the event as a person can be. Until you can actually prove Hoover as the author of the Lone Nut theory, using it as a portion of an argument holds no water.

Prove it first THEN use it to support a theory... and we don't want Wrone's opinion... we need something to corroborate the statement and conflicts with the 11/22 memo I just posted as awell as the Dec 12th memo which both state the opposite of what you and Wrone are contending... that Oswald was leftist and pro-Castro and was not alone.

If Hoover was doing anything to CYA, it had to do with the FBI being the reason he was doing FPCC work and was with Banister et al to begin with...

DJ

Well, David, I think that the FBI memo that you yourself posted above is already half of the argument, because Hoover himself actually used the word, "Nut" in that memo, which was typed at 4:15 Central Standard Time (i.e. 5:15 Eastern) on the day JFK was murdered.

Care to comment?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 12, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

So, David, your latest post of a memo from J. Edgar Hoover to his senior staff on 11/22/1963 (around 4:15 CST) was incomplete -- not all the pages were displayed.

Do you have more pages for that memo? Here's what I can see so far in it:

-------- MEMO EXCERPT FROM J. EDGAR HOOVER ON 11/22/193, 2.5 HOURS AFTER OSWALD WAS ARRESTED ---------

5:15–p.m. November 22, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR

MR. TOLSON

MR. BELMONT

MR. MOHR

MR. CONRAD

MR. EVANS

MR. ROSEN

MR. SULLIVAN

Assistant Attorney General Norbert A. Schlei, Office of Legal Counsel, called. He stated he was drafting various forms of a proclamation for use by the new President and wondered if I could tell him whether I had any knowledge as to what kind of people murdered the President. He indicated the form of the proclamation might depend on whether these were madmen, disappointed office seekers, represented some political point of view, were segregationist madmen, or just who they were.

I told Mr. Schlei I thought very probably we had in custody the man who killed the President in Dallas but this had not definitely been established. I advised Mr. Schlei that Lee Harvey Oswald spent some years in Russia, although he was born in America; that he tried unsuccessfully to renounce his American citizenship; and then came back home. I stated our interest in Oswald came about from the fact that he had been associated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; that he was arrested in New Orleans some months ago for handing out leaflets in support of that committee.

I told Mr. Schlei that Oswald was working in the building from which the shots were fired; that we have the rifle and 3 empty shells found in the building in which the man was employed. I said Oswald apparently left the building and a block or two away two police officers moved toward him, and for no good reason -- he opened fire and then killed one.

I told Mr. Schlei that the police have Oswald in custody and we are interrogating him at the present time. I stated he would be in the category of a Nut and the extremist pro-Castro crowd.

As to other Presidents assassinated, I indicated I had knowledge concerning only two of them. I stated the attempted assassination of...

<display cut out at this point>

<display resumes>

I said Oswald, if he were the man, would be in the category of being an extreme radical of the left; that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that several of the leaders of this group have been indicted; but that this man never was a leader. I stated he was born an American but tried unsuccessfully to lose his American citizenship; came back to this country in 1962; made several trips to Cuba; upon his return each time we questioned him about what he went to Cuba for, and he answered that it was none of our business. I said his working in this particular building where he was employed would lend credence to the fact that he may very likely be the man.

----------------------------- END OF MEMO EXCERPT FROM J. EDGAR HOOVER 11/22/1963 ---------------------

Very interesting material, David...We appreciate it...Are there more pages?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 12, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

I told Mr. Schlei that the police have Oswald in custody and we are interrogating him at the present time. I stated he would be in the category of a Nut and the extremist pro-Castro crowd.

Yes Paul, there is a bit more yet there is nothing that chnges the tome or shows support for you and Wrone's claim that Hoover pushed the Lone Nut angle within an hour of the shots.

So far I have posted doc after doc showing that Hoover was manipulated into saying the Oswald was alone in this... that the CIA & State did what they could to show he was NOT alone and was involved in a conspiracy with pro-Castro Cubans to kill JFK... it was the FBI's job to ignore all that info and CREATE the evidence for a Lone Nut... which they did.

You, on the other hand, have posted nothing but your speculation. Appreciated and interesting for sure, but purely speculation whereas the following shows your conclusion not to be the case.

If you could post even a single item that suggests what you are saying is true - surely Wrone isn't the sole source for such an important statemetn and declaration from the Director of the FBI within an hour of the assassiantion. Who did he tell Paul? When did he meet with Bundy prior to his call to AF-1?

Where's the beef? lol

--------------

"the extremist pro-Castro crowd"

I have a hard time believing that Hoover would be pushing pro-Castro connections 2.5 hours after he is suppose3dly coming up with the Lone Nut scenario...

and then to be consistent and repeat these words after the FBI report is delivered. In that report the word "Lone" does not appear - only "loner", "lonely", "alone"

From Dec 9, 1963

Investigation has (1) developed detailed background information concerning

Oswald from his birth to his death; (2) strengthened the evidence that

Oswald was the assassin of the President although no clear-cut motive has

been established; and (3) despite numerous allegations which have been

investigated, developed no sound evidence indicating that he received any

financial assistance or that any other person, group, or foreign government

inspired or directed the assassination or was cognizant of his plan to

assassinate President Kennedy. On the contrary, the data developed strongly

indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little

advance planning. Also, investigation has disclosed no evidence that

Oswald, while residing in Russia, was recruited by the Soviet intelligence

services or received any assignment or training from the intelligence

services. Further, investigation has developed no proof of any prior

contact or association between Oswald and his murderer, Jack Leon Ruby.

Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr, December 12, 1963

page 2

Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed; they took it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=2&tab=page

[Paul Trejo]

Yes Paul, there is a bit more yet there is nothing that chnges the tome or shows support for you and Wrone's claim that Hoover pushed the Lone Nut angle within an hour of the shots.

So far I have posted doc after doc showing that Hoover was manipulated into saying the Oswald was alone in this... that the CIA & State did what they could to show he was NOT alone and was involved in a conspiracy with pro-Castro Cubans to kill JFK... it was the FBI's job to ignore all that info and CREATE the evidence for a Lone Nut... which they did.

You, on the other hand, have posted nothing but your speculation. Appreciated and interesting for sure, but purely speculation whereas the following shows your conclusion not to be the case.

If you could post even a single item that suggests what you are saying is true - surely Wrone isn't the sole source for such an important statemetn and declaration from the Director of the FBI within an hour of the assassiantion. Who did he tell Paul? When did he meet with Bundy prior to his call to AF-1?

Where's the beef? lol

--------------

"the extremist pro-Castro crowd"

I have a hard time believing that Hoover would be pushing pro-Castro connections 2.5 hours after he is suppose3dly coming up with the Lone Nut scenario...

and then to be consistent and repeat these words after the FBI report is delivered. In that report the word "Lone" does not appear - only "loner", "lonely", "alone"

From Dec 9, 1963

Investigation has (1) developed detailed background information concerning

Oswald from his birth to his death; (2) strengthened the evidence that

Oswald was the assassin of the President although no clear-cut motive has

been established; and (3) despite numerous allegations which have been

investigated, developed no sound evidence indicating that he received any

financial assistance or that any other person, group, or foreign government

inspired or directed the assassination or was cognizant of his plan to

assassinate President Kennedy. On the contrary, the data developed strongly

indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little

advance planning. Also, investigation has disclosed no evidence that

Oswald, while residing in Russia, was recruited by the Soviet intelligence

services or received any assignment or training from the intelligence

services. Further, investigation has developed no proof of any prior

contact or association between Oswald and his murderer, Jack Leon Ruby.

Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr, December 12, 1963

page 2

Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed; they took it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

Basically, David, I agree with everything you've said here.

As for Professor Wrone's claim, it will stand or fall with the FBI document that he is able to produce.

I agree that even though Hoover uses the word "Nut" in the memo you provided from 5:15PM (which is 2.5 hours after OSWALD was arrested) we cannot find the full moniker of "Lone Nut".

In fact, even in this very memo, Hoover speaks of OSWALD has possibly having Accomplices. Probably those would be the "extreme pro-Castro crowd" of Accomplices. Yet even in this memo, Hoover wasn't so partisan that he discounted the chance of extreme Right-wing plot, since Hoover also cited in his opening paragraph, "Segregationist Madmen."

So -- this can't be the memo that Professor Wrone had in mind. The tone still suggests the problem of possible Accomplices for Lee Harvey OSWALD.

OK. You make other valid points, David, but you also raised some questions:

(1) You say, David, that you "posted doc after doc showing that Hoover was manipulated into saying the Oswald was alone in this."

(1.1) Please clarify which docs you mean. The CIA docs actually said the OPPOSITE, viz., that OSWALD had Communist Accomplices.

(1.2) You admit that "it was the FBI's job to ignore all that info and CREATE the evidence for a Lone Nut." So, who came up with the LONE NUT idea in the first place? You're not clarifying your opinion on that, IMHO.

(2) I agree with you that if Wrone turns out to be the sole source -- i.e. he misunderstood an FBI memo -- then I have nothing further to stand on to defend J. Edgar Hoover in this regard, and I'll need to go back to the drawing board.

(3) As for getting the message to Bundy in Dallas, of course Hoover in DC could not have met him, but could only have called an FBI officer in Dallas to meet Bundy. That is also speculation -- but if Hoover turns out to be the originator of the "Lone Nut" idea (as Wrone says) then it is more than speculation -- it becomes a near-certainty.

(4) You raise a very interesting question, David, namely, if Hoover decided to push the "Lone Nut" idea as early as 3PM CST 11/22/1963 (as Wrone says), then why do his memos to others after that time period, for several days, continue to entertain the idea of Accomplices?

(5) Thanks for citing the FBI report you had in mind from 9 December 1963. HERE IS THE STABLE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE "LONE NUT" theory to the world.

(5.1) At the same time, this same memo ends with an ambiguity, as Hoover says: "the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern."

(5.2) Of course, that "great concern," was about the fact that any other players would shatter the "Lone Nut" theory.

(5.3) Hoover seems to be rehashing arguments made and insisted by FBI and CIA officers in Mexico City, claiming that OSWALD must have been part of a Communist plot.

(5.4) Hoover concludes by regarding the "Communist plot" evidence as "Speculative."

(5.5) Nevertheless, Hoover ends with an ambiguity, saying: "I urged strongly that we NOT reach conclusion Oswald was the only man."

There is ambiguity throughout that Hoover memo. Hoover opens by stating firmly that OSWALD was the "Only man". Yet he ends by stating firmly that we "NOT" reach that same conclusion. It is a confused memo.

In one and the same memo, J. Edgar Hoover presents two opposite doctrines -- and it is confusing to anybody who reads it. Hoover himself seems confused.

Yet -- if (and only if) Professor Wrone is correct, then we must conclude that Hoover is deliberately trying to trick his readers into believing that he struggled hard to find out the real truth -- and carefully weighed all the possibilities and all the evidence -- when actually Hoover's mind was made up from the start (as of 3pm CST 11/22/1963) that OSWALD was the "Lone Nut."

So -- my theory about J. Edgar Hoover will stand or fall based on the answer I receive from Professor Wrone.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 12, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Basically, David, I agree with everything you've said here.

As for Professor Wrone's claim, it will stand or fall with the FBI document that he is able to produce.

I agree that even though Hoover uses the word "Nut" in the memo you provided from 5:15PM (which is 2.5 hours after OSWALD was arrested) we cannot find the full moniker of "Lone Nut".

In fact, even in this very memo, Hoover speaks of OSWALD has possibly having Accomplices. Probably those would be the "extreme pro-Castro crowd" of Accomplices. Yet even in this memo, Hoover wasn't so partisan that he discounted the chance of extreme Right-wing plot, since Hoover also cited in his opening paragraph, "Segregationist Madmen."

So -- this can't be the memo that Professor Wrone had in mind. The tone still suggests the problem of possible Accomplices for Lee Harvey OSWALD.

OK. You make other valid points, David, but you also raised some questions:

(1) You say, David, that you "posted doc after doc showing that Hoover was manipulated into saying the Oswald was alone in this."

(1.1) Please clarify which docs you mean. The CIA docs actually said the OPPOSITE, viz., that OSWALD had Communist Accomplices.

Yes Paul. The CIA/State stories all point to a Castro backed/connected conspiracy to kill JFK. Yet that finding is not included in a single FBI report – it’s not even suggested. In fact in every case where there is evidence of Oswald’s connections to others involved (Bannister, Ferrie, Shaw, Odio’s Cubans, Cuba, Russia, etc…) the FBI bends over backward to disavow these relationships. The SS even chimes in claiming that they looked too and there was no connection between 544 Camp and Oswald.

(1.2) You admit that "it was the FBI's job to ignore all that info and CREATE the evidence for a Lone Nut." So, who came up with the LONE NUT idea in the first place? You're not clarifying your opinion on that, IMHO.

What we KNOW is that there is strong evidence that something was said to the people on AF-1 from Bundy in the Situation Room that Oswald was the killer and there was no conspiracy. Whether “Lone Nut” the words were used, who cares. Before much of any investigation had occurred, the conclusion was already offered.

Who told Bundy to tell AF-1? Don’t know. All I do know is that DC calls TX and tells them to knock off the conspiracy stuff in the afternoon of 11/22. If the AF-1 scenario did not happen then one has to wonder why Bethesda goes thru so much to make it appear as if it was only shots from behind and only 3.

(2) I agree with you that if Wrone turns out to be the sole source -- i.e. he misunderstood an FBI memo -- then I have nothing further to stand on to defend J. Edgar Hoover in this regard, and I'll need to go back to the drawing board.

(3) As for getting the message to Bundy in Dallas, of course Hoover in DC could not have met him, but could only have called an FBI officer in Dallas to meet Bundy. That is also speculation -- but if Hoover turns out to be the originator of the "Lone Nut" idea (as Wrone says) then it is more than speculation -- it becomes a near-certainty.

?? I thought the idea was that Bundy was in DC in the Situation room talking to LBJ on AF-1 ?? Whether the call was real and what was said is only relayed by those who supposedly saw and read transcripts. But Bundy was most definitely in DC where Hoover was. It was you that claimed it was Hoover who told Bundy who in turn spoke to AF-1... I don't see anything to support that.

(4) You raise a very interesting question, David, namely, if Hoover decided to push the "Lone Nut" idea as early as 3PM CST 11/22/1963 (as Wrone says), then why do his memos to others after that time period, for several days, continue to entertain the idea of Accomplices?

(5) Thanks for citing the FBI report you had in mind from 9 December 1963. HERE IS THE STABLE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE "LONE NUT" theory to the world.

That report is WCD #1 and is the basis for the WCR – right down to the table of contents. The FBI was definitely going to find that Oswald was alone. Hoover challenges this idea and does so again in January when he comments about the charade the CIA pulls in Mexico as an example of their “double dealing”

(5.1) At the same time, this same memo ends with an ambiguity, as Hoover says: "the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern."

No Paul. That’s a different memo. The final FBI REPORT 12/9 says he was alone. The Hoover memo to his staff from 12/12 offers these “great concerns”

(5.2) Of course, that "great concern," was about the fact that any other players would shatter the "Lone Nut" theory.

Sorry Paul… I don’t think that’s what it meant. The “great concern” was the CIA evidence of Oswald in Mexico City getting paid to kill JFK. If you keep reading that paragraph you’ll see he is specifically talking about Oswald’s Cuban connections.

(5.3) Hoover seems to be rehashing arguments made and insisted by FBI and CIA officers in Mexico City, claiming that OSWALD must have been part of a Communist plot.

CIA officers yes… not FBI. If you have any FBI document that speculates on Oswald being part of a plot, please post or link to it. The FBI is trying to track down a fictitious trip on planes, trains or buses since a car would mean a partner in crime. Only the CIA and STATE department champion a Castro conspiracy and only then for a short time.

(5.4) Hoover concludes by regarding the "Communist plot" evidence as "Speculative."

He even goes as far as to state that “someone similar to Oswald MAY have been in Mexico City” as reported by the CIA. He distances himself and the FBI from these “speculations” by stating them as such yet proceeding to accumulate evidence as if he never said a word.

(5.5) Nevertheless, Hoover ends with an ambiguity, saying: "I urged strongly that we NOT reach conclusion Oswald was the only man."

There is ambiguity throughout that Hoover memo. Hoover opens by stating firmly that OSWALD was the "Only man". Yet he ends by stating firmly that we "NOT" reach that same conclusion. It is a confused memo.

In one and the same memo, J. Edgar Hoover presents two opposite doctrines -- and it is confusing to anybody who reads it. Hoover himself seems confused.

No sure which memo you speak of. There is the one I posted from 11/22, the FBI report which I post the ending of and his memo to his staff from 12/12 which I only post a small part. Here is the whole thing:

11:35 a.m. December 12, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR: MR. TOLSON

MR. BELMONT

MR. MOHR

MR. CONRAD

MR. DELOACH

MR. EVANS

MR. ROSEN

MR. SULLIVAN

Mr. Lee Rankin called from New York to check in with me on the matter of the Commission. He wanted to work out an arrangement with me which he thought might be satisfactory. He said he understood Mr. Belmont handled the investigation.

I told Mr. Rankin that Mr. Belmont, Mr. Rosen and I handled the preparation of the report and will handle additional leads as they come in.

Mr. Rankin asked how he should handle anything that comes up, things the Commission will want developed further, in regard to the FBI - whether they should be handled directly with me or somebody I would designate.

I replied that I will designate someone. I explained that I sent Mr. Malley down to Dallas to handle all of our angles down there; that he was on the ground there; and that I think he probably would be the man who would be more familiar with things Mr. Rankin should further explore. I stated Mr. Malley is in Dallas at the present time but will be ordered back tomorrow; that he will be available; and that we will be glad to run out any additional men as he may want.

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed; they took 

Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr, December 12, 1963

page 2

Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan

it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

As to Rubenstein, I said I did not want a statement about Rubenstein and Oswald; that we have no proof they were ever together. I stated Rubenstein is a shady character from the hoodlum element of Chicago, has a poor background, runs a nightclub in Dallas, and is what would be called a police buff; that the police officers in the precinct have been able to get food and liquor from him at any time they drop in; that while I think there was no connection between him and Oswald, I did not want the report to be 100% sure on that.

Fourth, I stated I did not believe any conclusions concerning Rubenstein should be reached at this time because he has not been tried; that was why I suggested to the Attorney General of Texas - and understand the Chief Justice did too- that his court of special inquiry be held in abeyance until after the Commission makes its findings. I said I thought they would go ahead with the Rubenstein trial in February; that was why I felt our report should name merely the facts we have established.

I further stated there may be some aspects Mr. Rankin will want to have run out farther; that there may be letters written to members of the Commission; that we have letters from people who claim to have seen Oswald; that up to the time we submitted the report we had cleared up all these angles except the Cuban thing which I discussed generally and explained that the informer recanted and blew that angle out of the window; that sort of thing may be popping up all the time. I advised Mr. Rankin if he wanted any leads followed out or any implementation of what we have already done we will give him 100% cooperation.

Mr. Rankin stated he knew we would; that he just wanted to

Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr, December 12, 1963

page 3

Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan

establishing it as a matter I should know. I told him not to hesitate to call me; that I will designate Mr. Malley and he will advise me at once of anything. Mr. Rankin then said he would get in touch with me if he thinks there is anything which should be taken up on that level.

I mentioned to him the actions of the Soviet Embassy, the Communist Party in New York, and John Abt is making available to us their information on Oswald.

I also discussed the operations of the Dallas Police Department in the case which led to the murder of Oswald.

I told Mr. Rankin the Department held the report about five days and then began to leak items from the Department on it, items such as the shooting of General Walker, things not known in Dallas; that I kept pressing them to get the report to the Commission; that a debate was going on between the Department and me; that I did not want any conclusion drawn but I thought a conclusion had been made in the letter of transmission to the Commission; that there would have been no purpose in appointing a Presidential Commission except to evaluate the facts; that it was the duty of the FBI to get the facts and let the Commission reach a conclusion.

I told Mr. Rankin we would want to do anything we can here to make his job easier. He said he has always had complete confidence in that and in me.

Mr. Rankin inquired if anything had been done about seeing that the films would be preserved and available for the Commission. I answered that we have them ourselves; that we have films taken by private individuals; that the President was not being covered by a car with television people as they do here in Washington; that there was not a professional photographer where this took place; that the Secret Service car immediately in back had already passed the building, which was at an angle, with the result they couldn't tell where the shots were coming from. I mentioned the comment by former Chief of Secret Service Baughman that he could not understand why the Secret Service men did not open fire with machine guns at the window. I said the Secret Service men did not see where the shots came from and would have killed a lot of innocent people if they had done so.

In connection with stories indicating that Oswald could not have done this alone, I stated he was a marksman and it wasn't anything he

Memorandum for Messrs. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr December 12, 1963

page 4

Conrad, DeLoach, Evans Rosenm Sullivan

could not do; that we have tested it on our rifle range and were able to get shots off even faster than he did; that there is no question in my mind about it; that we also found the fingerprints and the bullets so conclusively fired from the gun; that we have all this and we have all the photographs.

Mr. Rankin inquired if we also have the television film run off of the shooting of Oswald, and I told him we have this.

Mr. Rankin said Mr. Malone delivered to him a copy of the report and also offered to help in any way possible; this was very kind of Malone; but he will not deal with Malone in anything unless it is some

emergency and he has to handle it locally. I told Mr. Rankin this was all right and, if he should need to call upon Malone, Malone would be available.

I also told Mr. Rankin there is a direct wire between the New York Office and here; that he can always place any calls to here over our wire; and that I will arrange for this.

I told Mr. Rankin to let us know if there is anything we can do.

Very truly yours,

J.E.H.

John Edgar Hoover

Director

Yet -- if (and only if) Professor Wrone is correct, then we must conclude that Hoover is deliberately trying to trick his readers into believing that he struggled hard to find out the real truth -- and carefully weighed all the possibilities and all the evidence -- when actually Hoover's mind was made up from the start (as of 3pm CST 11/22/1963) that OSWALD was the "Lone Nut."

So -- my theory about J. Edgar Hoover will stand or fall based on the answer I receive from Professor Wrone.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

3pm 11/22 is pretty specific Paul. I too look forward to anything you can offer to support your original feelings. I can dig deeper myself – as can you – but I think I’ve shown enough to support that Hoover was TOLD he did not DECIDE much of anything.

DJ

[Larry Hancock]

Just for context, the FBI HQ directive of Friday afternoon was for an open ended investigation for field offices to look at all leads, contact all sources and informants - from across the subversive spectrum. It is not until

Saturday morning that a follow on directive from Hoover (after the Johnson call including several minutes of dialog which have been confirmed to have been erased from the tape of the conversation) closes down that open ended inquiry and focuses the Bureau strictly on leads having to do with Oswald. In addition, the telephone calls coming from DC to various law enforcement officers in Texas on Friday evening, ordering them not to file charges of conspiracy or to discuss a possible conspiracy came from Johnson's staff...not from the Bureau. That is according to remarks from the people who actually received the calls.

[David Josephs]

The FBI memo's Larry refers to:

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/062/62251/images/img_62251_5_300.png

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/062/62251/images/img_62251_8_300.png

Find this Hidell guy and question him about a plot to kill JFK

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/062/62251/images/img_62251_9_300.png

From after 10pm 11/22 as they start focusing on Oswald

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/057/57690/images/img_57690_188_300.png

And check out Hosty's note on the 22nd. "Not necessary to cover as true subject located - JMH"

[Paul Trejo]

Yes Paul. The CIA/State stories all point to a Castro backed/connected conspiracy to kill JFK. Yet that finding is not included in a single FBI report – it’s not even suggested. In fact in every case where there is evidence of Oswald’s connections to others involved (Bannister, Ferrie, Shaw, Odio’s Cubans, Cuba, Russia, etc…) the FBI bends over backward to disavow these relationships. The SS even chimes in claiming that they looked too and there was no connection between 544 Camp and Oswald.

What we KNOW is that there is strong evidence that something was said to the people on AF-1 from Bundy in the Situation Room that Oswald was the killer and there was no conspiracy. Whether “Lone Nut” the words were used, who cares. Before much of any investigation had occurred, the conclusion was already offered.

Who told Bundy to tell AF-1? Don’t know. All I do know is that DC calls TX and tells them to knock off the conspiracy stuff in the afternoon of 11/22. If the AF-1 scenario did not happen then one has to wonder why Bethesda goes thru so much to make it appear as if it was only shots from behind and only 3.

?? I thought the idea was that Bundy was in DC in the Situation room talking to LBJ on AF-1 ?? Whether the call was real and what was said is only relayed by those who supposedly saw and read transcripts. But Bundy was most definitely in DC where Hoover was. It was you that claimed it was Hoover who told Bundy who in turn spoke to AF-1... I don't see anything to support that.

That report is WCD #1 and is the basis for the WCR – right down to the table of contents. The FBI was definitely going to find that Oswald was alone. Hoover challenges this idea and does so again in January when he comments about the charade the CIA pulls in Mexico as an example of their “double dealing”

...The final FBI REPORT 12/9 says he was alone. The Hoover memo to his staff from 12/12 offers these “great concerns”

...The “great concern” was the CIA evidence of Oswald in Mexico City getting paid to kill JFK. If you keep reading that paragraph you’ll see he is specifically talking about Oswald’s Cuban connections.

CIA officers yes… not FBI. If you have any FBI document that speculates on Oswald being part of a plot, please post or link to it. The FBI is trying to track down a fictitious trip on planes, trains or buses since a car would mean a partner in crime. Only the CIA and STATE department champion a Castro conspiracy and only then for a short time.

He [Hoover] even goes as far as to state that “someone similar to Oswald MAY have been in Mexico City” as reported by the CIA. He distances himself and the FBI from these “speculations” by stating them as such yet proceeding to accumulate evidence as if he never said a word.

...There is the one I posted from 11/22, the FBI report which I post the ending of and his memo to his staff from 12/12 which I only post a small part...

3pm 11/22 is pretty specific Paul. I too look forward to anything you can offer to support your original feelings. I can dig deeper myself – as can you – but I think I’ve shown enough to support that Hoover was TOLD he did not DECIDE much of anything.

Well, David, I passed that memo of 11/22/1963 at 5:15 PM EST by Professor Wrone, because I feared that this is the one he might have had in mind – so he replied to me this morning, saying that he has a different memo in mind, and he’s still searching for it.

So, we’re both looking forward to it (and others are too, I gather).

The Mexico City FBI rank-and-file (so implies the Lopez Report) was echoing the Mexico City CIA rank-and-file about a Castro backed plot to kill JFK. It is not in an FBI report that I’ve seen – but it was such a common opinion in Mexico, that the CIA staff there had to be ordered to shut up about it. It makes sense to me that, until they heard the "Lone Nut" order, the local FBI also repeated the rumors.

It is quite clear that the FBI bent over backwards to disavow any and all associates of any kind with Lee Harvey Oswald -- after they received the "Lone Nut" mandate. The only question is still about the original origin of the “Lone Nut” doctrine. The FBI took their orders from Hoover – so, either Hoover was the originator of the idea, or somebody higher than Hoover gave him the order.

I had the mistaken picture that Bundy was on board AF-1 when he told LBJ that Oswald was the “Lone Shooter” without accomplices. Your scenario makes my argument easier – Bundy called AF-1 from DC – right where Hoover was.

As for the 11/22/1963 afternoon DC order to TX to shut up about conspiracy talk, that’s revealing. It shows that the “Lone Nut” theory had already hatched in DC by the afternoon of 11/22/1963. That seems to correspond to Professor Wrone’s claim about a Hoover epiphany around 3PM CST.

Yet that doctrine needed LBJ’s approval before such an outcome could be demanded of the medical staff at Bethesda. The AF-1 scenario did happen, and our evidence is the almost immediate tampering with medical evidence at Bethesda to hide evidence of more than one shooter.

When it became clear that hiding the evidence was impossible – because routine X-rays and photographs of JFK’s head and brain showed obvious evidence of multiple bullets (and even multiple types of bullets, i.e. frangible as well as full-metal-jacket) then of course the X-rays and photographs had to be made Top Secret, so that only hand-drawn images of JFK’s wounds would be shown in the WC Report.

I continue to maintain that Hoover (or his senior staff) told Bundy that Oswald was a “Lone Nut,” and Bundy in turn spoke to AF-1. My evidence is this: (i) Professor Wrone maintains that an FBI memo confirms that the “Lone Nut” was originally Hoover’s idea; (ii) Bundy told LBJ about the “Lone Nut.”

So, it stands to reason, then, that: (iii) Hoover (or his staff) told Bundy. I’m not saying I have proof for (iii), but if I can obtain proof for (i) from Professor Wrone, then logic itself will demand (iii).

Now, given (i), then we must conclude that Hoover himself challenges his own idea in subsequent memos to his staff, e.g. in January, but also in that 12/12 memo in which Hoover expresses his “great concerns.”

Now, David, you claim that Hoover’s “great concern” was CIA evidence of Oswald in Mexico City with accomplices of the Cuban Communist variety. No, IMHO the “great concern” wasn't about a conspiracy, but about the problems of keeping any conspiracy theory shut down.

In other words, Hoover's own challenges to his own "Lone Nut" theory must be trickery on his part, in order to further the myth that the FBI investigation was fair, unbiased, and by the book -- when Hoover knew that it could never be any of those, due to National Security.

As for evidence about the FBI in Mexico City speculating about a Communist plot, that is not my idea, but is found in the Lopez Report. It was admittedly unofficial, but it was rampant, because Mexico City was generating Communist plot theories like a factory. If not for Hoover’s mandate to stomp on all conspiracy theories with regard to the JFK murder, the Red conspiracy theories would have flourished.

Everybody, FBI, CIA and STATE entertained a Castro conspiracy at some point – but it was only the “Lone Nut” mandate that shut them all up. Wrone says that mandate came from LBJ after he got the idea from Hoover.

Finally, David, I sharply disagree with you on one point – when you say that “Hoover was TOLD he did not DECIDE much of anything.”

Wrone says that Hoover decided on the “Lone Nut” all by himself, and that he got the message to LBJ, and LBJ liked it, and it became a sort of Executive Order at that point. You, David, haven’t told us WHO told Hoover, in your scenario.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 13, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Paul... how much Mexico City research have you actually done ?

Have you written anything about Mexico City after having done the research? please point the way

I have spent the last year finding and organizing these documents with the help of some very good researchers.

Suffice to say there are few if any public docs that I have not dug up... yet I am sure trhere are many filed away which are not publically known.

Finally... sorry to say, Wrone is wrong. And you are wrong in relation to what Hoover did and knew about Mexico.

I have found that the CIA and State Dept hid vital information from the FBI while sharing among themselves.

The FBI only becomes aware of this thru a CC to I&NS Jeff Woosley who in turn speaks with Hosty who writes a report on the 18th of Oct. All this is in my articles.

It is Win Scott in his Oct 16th memo, who turns Oswald talking to Kostikov from a theory into an accepted fact -

An FBI report from 10/31 states that they think he went to Irving with his wife and Ruth... He had already been working at the TSBD for a week by then...

==============

Wrone says that Hoover decided on the “Lone Nut” all by himself, and that he got the message to LBJ, and LBJ liked it, and it became a sort of Executive Order at that point. You, David, haven’t told us WHO told Hoover, in your scenario

Again. Wrone is mistaken here. And if I were to SPECULATE I would say that Hoover hears it from LBJ who has spoken to Bundy from AF-1. These are Hoover's call logs from 11/22 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=123193#relPageId=292&tab=page

At 1:43 (12:43 Dallas) Hoover calls Schlesinger. at 2:10 he calls AS at the White House again.

The Situation room is at the White House

Bundy is in the Situation Room and at the White House.

Hoover MAY have been informed by Arthur after hearing from Bundy.

But we can only speculate on the point... all the FBI evidence suggests that the FBI proceeded to initiate a real investigation of the "little commie" who killed JFK... and it was shut down.

From what I've read, the Bundy-LBJ discussions along with the LBJ RFK discussions on AF-1 were excised from the tapes and record logs. LBJ supposedly also spoke with Hoover while he was on AF-1(? - I'm asking here)

I will continue searching docs.... yet as Larry tells us... it is really not until the next day that the word goes out from Hoover that they have their man... The Hosty note on that 11/22 doc could have been from any time after the fact...

Hope we get to the bottom of Wrone's claims

DJ

[Larry Hancock]

David, the AF1 transcripts show no signs of a call from Johnson to Hoover. The first indication of a call between the two is from Johnson to Hoover after Johnson is back in DC. That one is particularly interesting as Manchester speaks of it in conjunction of a whole series of other calls and gives specific times, suggesting he took it from Johnson's call log. However when I investigated the call log, there is no sign of it, suggesting an altered log. That would be very consistent with the wiping of the Saturday morning Hoover to Johnson call on the tape and the apparent deletion of a good portion of the transcript of that call.

To provide more context, in what we do have of that call Hoover is telling Johnson of the impersonation of Oswald in MC, implying that there were other individuals in and around Oswald in some fashion. However in the transcript, Johnson - who had called Hoover in the first place to ask about Mexico City, makes absolutely no response to that and that's pretty much were things go dark. To my mind there is every impression of Johnson beginning to shut down Hoover just as the calls from Johnson's staff shut down Texas law enforcement the previous evening.