Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[John Butler]

I don't think Groden would have mixed two films together.  Why?  Where is the proof?  As far as I know the Darnell film starts out with Darnell out of the vehicle standing on the south side of Elm and facing Ike Altgens and the Newmans north of Elm by the Grassy Knoll.  It could be this is a hoax film by the laughing fellow shown but, it is posted as the Darnell film.  Or, it could really be reality.  If Groden had pasted two films together what would be the point?  What would that do to his credibility?  It would be found out over time.  Would he risk his credibility and financial possibilities doing something stupid and risky.  I need more proof before accepting Unger's statements.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

SANDY WROTE THE FOLLOWING, AND BART REPLIED IN BOLD:

 

Sandy Larsen,

you are wrong, see below in BOLD.

 

1. Frazier  and Molina were standing at the top of the TSBD steps at the time of the shooting.
2. 20 to 30 seconds after the shots,  Truly went inside the TSBD.
3. Afterward, a girl who had earlier walked away from the steps -- to get a better view of the motorcade -- returned to the steps with someone else and told several people that Kennedy had been shot.  Let's assume that these two people were Gloria Calvery and her female companion, with whom Molina would later speak inside the TSBD lobby. [Bart replied:] Calvery and her three pals Hicks, Reed and Westbrook left the building and stood between the Stemmons Freeway sign and the lamp post. 

 

Gloria Calvery and her friends did indeed watch the motorcade from the sidewalk on Elm. But immediately after the shooting they ran back to the TSBD steps. The following photo shows them at each place. The main photo is a frame from Darnell, and the inset is from Zapruder.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

1. [see in prior quotation box]
2. [see in prior quotation box]
3. [see in prior quotation box]
4. Frazier heard what Gloria Calvery and her companion told the others, and shortly thereafter went back inside the TSBD.
5. Molina went into the TSBD lobby. 
6. Gloria Calvery and her female companion went into the TSBD lobby and spoke with Molina there about the shooting.
7. Several minutes later the Police arrived and entered the TSBD.

But Bart adds this statement: "Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!"  This 50-year-old memory contradicts my timeline above, because my timeline shows Calvery arriving at #3, whereas according to Bart, Frazier has her arriving at #8... after the police arrived several minutes later.

There is nothing wrong with the timeline above, but you are wrong for inserting Calvery 2x! She should not be at position 3 at all.

 

Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps at #3 and went inside at #6.

 

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

If what Frazier reportedly said is true, it means that the girl and her companion in #3 and #4 are not the same as Calvery and her companion in #6. And it means that the following took place: Shortly after the shooting, some girl and her companion told the people on the steps that Kennedy had been shot; then the people went inside; several minutes later the police arrived; and AFTER ALL THAT, Gloria Calvery and her companion finally arrived, went inside, and told everybody what they already knew by then... that Kennedy had been shot. Molina must have been the only one left in the dark, given that his  response was, "Are you sure?" Rather than, "Yes, we've already heard. That's why the police are here."

I don't care what Frazier says in all honesty, he is all over when it comes to his statements. In his HSCA interview he said Shelley and Lovelady had left the steps before the limo went on Elm! Only to be confronted with Altgens 6 shortly after. And closer checking of Frazier's claim is that he meant Baker, yet in his WC testimony he never saw him go in. So if anyone is all over the place with his statements it is Frazier. And I should have clarified that in my original post. But even so it males no difference besides the fact that Calvery is nowhere near on those steps in Darnell.

I'm afraid that Bart is relying too much on fifty-year-old memories and not enough on first-day statements.

Ha ha ha, you must be joking there. If anyone disregards first day statements it is you.

Shelley's DPD and Lovelady FBI first day statements speak volumes, with regards them leaving immediately and speaking to Calvery across away from those steps. Something Doyle and Graves ignore as well.

 

What I show in the photo above is 100% consistent with the first-day statements of Lovelady and Frazier. And thanks to you, I now know it is consistent with the first-day statements of Frazier and Molina as well.

In Lovelady's first-day statement, he said only that he went back inside the building after the shooting. He said nothing about leaving the steps. So what you are saying here about Lovelady's first day statement is wrong. It wasn't till later (1964, I believe) that he added the part about leaving the steps immediately and talking to Calvery at the concrete island.

 

[Guest]

The photo is totally inconsistent with what you say, only in lala land of course. Your sequence is one of sheer speculation and offers no proof of Calvery being on those steps. Or Molina going in at that time! But hold on did Molina not go to the rail road yards as well.....so how does this rhyme with the Calvery encounter? Do your best speculating here!

And how idiotic is it to compare a skirt from a  woman in Z, with a detail so small in an  image that is so blurred, approx 650 px wide and containing video tape transfer effects and has to be enlarged to such an extend to 'see' something that matches that skirt! It simply boggles the mind. Kinda like seeing purses, handbags and above all buttons....... 

I said Lovelady's first FBI (!!!)not DPD statement.

If after all these years you are unaware of this doc then I may as well give up. I have mentioned this many times.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

I don't think Groden would have mixed two films together.  Why?  Where is the proof?  As far as I know the Darnell film starts out with Darnell out of the vehicle standing on the south side of Elm and facing Ike Altgens and the Newmans north of Elm by the Grassy Knoll.  It could be this is a hoax film by the laughing fellow shown but, it is posted as the Darnell film.  Or, it could really be reality.  If Groden had pasted two films together what would be the point?  What would that do to his credibility?  It would be found out over time.  Would he risk his credibility and financial possibilities doing something stupid and risky.  I need more proof before accepting Unger's statements.

 

There was a sequence on his DVD that showed this. It has been known for years, I think it was discussed in the "Oswald Leaving TSBD" thread in 2013

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354

Bad quality copy but one thing is for sure.

Couch did not film the front steps.

And even with this bad quality you can see a moment where it stops and continues. 0:19/0:20

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

The photo is totally inconsistent with what you say, only in lala land of course. Your sequence is one of sheer speculation and offers no proof of Calvery being on those steps. Or Molina going in at that time! But hold on did Molina not go to the rail road yards as well.....so how does this rhyme with the Calvery encounter? Do your best speculating here!

And how idiotic is it to compare a skirt from a  woman in Z, with a detail so small in an  image that is so blurred, approx 650 px wide and containing video tape transfer effects and has to be enlarged to such an extend to 'see' something that matches that skirt! It simply boggles the mind. Kinda like seeing purses, handbags and above all buttons....... 

 

Here's how we know that the identifications given in the photo below are correct:

1. The first-day statements of Gloria Calvery and her friends Karan Hicks and Carol Reed place them approximately at the site shown in the Zapruder inset of the photo below. (Note: The statements say that they are on the south side of Elm Street, not the north. But we know that is a mistake because there aren't any groups of women standing in that location.)
2. We have plenty of photos of Gloria Calvery. She was a big woman. The ONLY big woman in the area specified by the statements is the one marked as Gloria Calvery in the inset below. Note the group of four women standing together, all wearing scarves. The scarves will be useful in locating Calvery after the shooting, in Darnell.
3. Tommy Graves and I searched through numerous photos and video frames looking for women wearing scarves, to see if any matched any of our four women. We focused primarily on Woman in All White because she would be easiest to find. In doing so, we found that there was only one woman in all white prior to the shooting... the one standing in Gloria Calvery's group. Just one!
4. And surprise... we found a woman in all white AFTER the shooting -- INCLUDING the white scarf -- standing on the TSBD steps in the Darnell video! As can be seen in the main photo (not inset) below. They are probably the same woman.
5. We then studied the Darnell video carefully and discovered that Woman in All White has the woman next to her in her arm, and is actually pulling up on her arm trying to get her to come along as she continues up the steps. But the woman resists, maybe because she is talking to the guy facing her. We reason that this very well could be one of the four gals she had been standing with earlier. If so, it could only be Gloria Calvery because her colors -- all black -- don't match any of the other three women's colors. But they do match Gloria Calvery's!
6. Calvery is all black from the waist up. But the shade of her skirt in B&W is gray. If only we could see the shade of the skirt of the woman standing with Woman in All White to see if it matches. If it does, then our identification is a slam dunk.
7. Tommy and I independently decided to look at Darnell frame by frame to see if we are lucky enough to get a glimpse of the woman's skirt. I don't know about Tommy, but I thought it was a long shot. He did his search and I did mine. I had the luxury of being able to toggle back and forth between the frames. And eureka! We both found frames where the woman blocking the view momentarily move away. The woman being pulled by Woman in all White indeed is wearing a skirt that matches Gloria Calvery's.

 

And that, Bart, is the significance of the skirt.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I said Lovelady's first FBI (!!!)not DPD statement.

If after all these years you are unaware of this doc then I may as well give up. I have mentioned this many times.

Oh, I'm aware of that document.  Just look at the first post of this thread, where I list all the statements given by Lovelady and Shelley. The statement above is among the list.

It's just that I confused the "running toward the limo" part with the "talked to Calvery" part. It wasn't till later (in 1964) that he added the "talked to Calvery" part.

You do know, don't you, that the only time Lovelady mentions talking to Gloria Calvery was in his WC deposition? And that he said that Calvery talked to him as he was standing on the steps? He doesn't say he talked to her at that concrete island. It was only Shelley who said that. Notice that this fits in with what I believe happened, that Lovelady spoke to Calvery at the steps. Which can be seen in the above photo.

What I believe is this: Both Lovelady and Shelley began to run toward the limo when they heard the commotion. They turned back when they saw that the limo had left. Shelley just happened to have made it all the way to the little concrete island before turning around and he bumped into Calvery there. Then the two of them ran back to the steps, where Calvery spoke to Lovelady and Shelley went inside to call his wife.

I don't believe they ever went to the railroad yard. That was just a story fabricated by the WC lawyers in order to have two employees enter the west door and witness Victoria Adams exiting the stairway late, to discredit her. And that is why in one statement Lovelady said they spent five minutes down by the limo before going to the railway. But for the WC deposition the lawyers decided to go with a three-minute delay at the steps waiting for Calvery to arrive.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't believe [Lovelady and Shelley] ever went to the railroad yard. That was just a story fabricated by the WC lawyers in order to have two employees enter the west door and witness Victoria Adams exiting the stairway late, to discredit her. And that is why in one statement Lovelady said they spent five minutes down by the limo before going to the railway. But for the WC deposition the lawyers decided to go with a three-minute delay at the steps waiting for Calvery to arrive.

 

I just went through all the Lovelady and Shelley statements, and it appears that neither mentioned going to the railroad yard and entering the west door of the TSBD until March 18/19, 1964. At that time they both said they did these things. I think they were being prepared for their WC depositions, to discredit Victoria Adams for the Commission

(I went through the statements quickly because I need to leave right away. So it's possible I missed something. But I don't think so.)

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[John Butler]

Bart,

Thanks.  You advice is always appreciated.  I went and read the earlier thread you recommended concerning this.  There seems to be an argument there also.  This is a late response due to thinking about replying to your post.  I became interested in the Gloria Calvert problem.  Here's my take on that.

Gloria Calvert in the Zapruder Film

There has been some discussion as to whether Gloria Calvert can be seen standing in a group of people in the Zapruder film or, not.  The group of people the alleged Gloria Calvert is standing in is what I call Mannequin Row after Jack White. 

Mannequin Row is a group of 19 people standing from the lamppost / R L Thornton sign area to the Stemmons Freeway sign.  It is an area of about 40 ft. on the north side of Elm Street just off the southwest corner of the TSBD.  What follows is the only pictorial evidence I can find for this Mannequin Row group’s existence.  There are witnesses who say they were standing there. 

There is more evidence that this group of people is an alteration of the Zapruder film.  They do not exist and are a figment of the photo editor’s imagination and exists only in the Zapruder film and the Betzner 3 photo.  Here is a comparison of Zapruder and Betzner:

In the Betzner Photo 9 people are absent from the lineup in the Zapruder frame.  They are more than likely hidden by the 5 Secret Service agents riding in the security vehicle shown in Betzner.  This makes it difficult to completely match the two photos.  I have matched by number those that can be easily identified.  The group with numbers 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 in the Zapruder frame can be partially identified in the Betzner photo.  No. 8 in both photos is a short man.  9 through 12 in Zapruder are women with babushkas.  In the Betzner photo they don’t appear to be wearing babushkas.  Numbers 1,3 and 18, 19 can be readily identified in both Betzner and Zapruder.

These two visual records match fairly well and are good evidence that Mannequin Row exists.  Or, are they just another of the myriad instances of photo alteration available for the Dealey Plaza pictorial record.  That will be taken up in the next post.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

The Existence of Mannequin Row in the Zapruder Film

There are other films and photos that do not show the 19-member group, Mannequin Row, and contradict what is shown the Zapruder film.

The first of these is the McBride Polaroid or as sometimes called Moorman 3.  Here is Glen McBride.  You will see that there are some peculiarities in the photo.

First off, there is a giant tree much bigger than any tree to be found in Dealey Plaza in 1963.  This tree is a painted artifact to cover the western face of the TSBD.  Why?  Probably to hide something the editors didn’t want you to see.

The second thing is Mannequin Row is not there.  Some will say they are but, they are east of where you indicate Mannequin Row begins.  But, look carefully Mannequin Row begins with the street lamppost and R L Thornton sign and ends with the Stemmons sign which is not visible in this Polaroid.

This is sloppy editing.  But, sloppy or not these editors knew their craft.  Hardly anyone would notice this kind of foolishness and most would not see what is going on here.  But, several have and tried to make excuse for the absence of the 19 people seen in the Zapruder.  Examples would be that Glen McBride was a member of the Early Lead Motorcycles and this Polariod was made about 15 minutes before the president passed through.  There are no Early Lead Motorcycles only Lead Motorcycles.  Another suggested this Polaroid was taken 2 minutes before the president turned onto Elm Street.

We can see Glen McBride and Sgt. Bellah in the Zapruder film for 132 frames and then they vanish into the Zapruder Gap.  Moorman 3 is a look into that gap.  132 frames divided by 18 frames is 7 or 8 seconds or there abouts.  Even with a brief stop the Lead Motorcycles would have cleared the area in less than 30 seconds. 

The McBride Polaroid is a good look into the Zapruder Gap and Mannequin Row is not there.  This is one of many direct contradictions of the Zapruder film.

[John Butler]

Bronson Frame

This is one of the clearer Charles Bronson film frames.  I don’t know why.  It is another example of the 19-member Mannequin Row missing in media other than Zapruder and Bronson.  There are several frames in the Bronson Film that show this.  The clearer one is posted below:

The Newmans are across the street from Mary Moorman and Jean Hill.  The Umbrella Man and the Latin Man clearly indicate where the Stemmons sign is.  There are people there in the Mannequin Row area but, not 19 people.  Another you might recognize is the lady with a blue babushka from Zapruder.  Maybe.  But, I wouldn’t stake a paycheck on that.

[John Butler]

Bell Film:

This frame is from the Bell film showing and absence of Mannequin Row:

The next two are of lesser evidentiary value since they were taken after the assassination by several minutes.

The John Martin Film:

The Malcom Couch Film:

Two or three minutes may be enough time for 19 people to disperse.  But, that’s an argument that can’t really be solved.