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George Sawtelle

Two Oswalds and Mexico City

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Thomas G

I´m really surprised Phillips allowed Veciana to see Phillips and Oswald(1) together. A guy like Phillips made very few mistakes so I believe Phillips had something in mind for Veciana and Oswald(1). If Oswald(1) appeared suddenly all Phillips had to do is tell Oswald(1) ... ¨hey guy I don´t know you f*** off¨ assuming that Phillips did not want Veciana to know that Phillips knew Oswald(1).

As far as Phillips and Oswald(2) seen together, it wouldn´t have happened. Before the assassination only Phillips and his boss knew of Oswald(2). For Phillips to betray the goose (CIA) that laid the golden egg (Oswald2) by being seen in public with Oswald(2) would have gotten Phillips killed. The CIA would have never wanted Phillips to testify under oath about the existence of a second Oswald.

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18 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

I´m really surprised Phillips allowed Veciana to see Phillips and Oswald(1) together. A guy like Phillips made very few mistakes so I believe Phillips had something in mind for Veciana and Oswald(1). If Oswald(1) appeared suddenly all Phillips had to do is tell Oswald(1) ... ¨hey guy I don´t know you f*** off¨ assuming that Phillips did not want Veciana to know that Phillips knew Oswald(1).

As far as Phillips and Oswald(2) seen together, it wouldn´t have happened. Before the assassination only Phillips and his boss knew of Oswald(2). For Phillips to betray the goose (CIA) that laid the golden egg (Oswald2) by being seen in public with Oswald(2) would have gotten Phillips killed. The CIA would have never wanted Phillips to testify under oath about the existence of a second Oswald.

George,

The account I read had Veciana flying in from out of town (Miami?) and showing up at that bank building 15 minutes earlier than he was supposed to, thereby kinda surprising Phillips by being there too early.

So, maybe it was just due to poor time management on Phillip's part, and a little of the same on Veciana's part, that caused Veciana to see Oswald in Phillip's presence like that.

--  Tommy :sun

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The building where DAP/LHO/AV may not be of much consequence. It has been, however, something I have been curious about since I hopped down the rabbit hole in November. It was Wynne Johnson's video, about this meeting, indeed, about his presence at this meeting that sucked me in.

I have seen no authorative accounts of the meeting being at the Southland Center aside from Wynne Johnson's. I have read some of AV's interviews and watched some videos, and unless I missed it, he never identified it as being the Southland Center.

I have seen William Kelley state that it was the Southland Center as far back as 2007, but he gives no source. 

Bill White corrected William Kelley on another thread, identifying it as the Southland Cafe, near the police station, and more in line with the testimony of Larry Crafard and George Senator when identifying the cafe they went to on 11-23 with Jack Ruby.

Again, I know it is not necessarily very important, but I am curious. If anyone can share an earlier account, for the location of the LHO/DHP/AV meeting, than the 2014 account of Wynne Johnson, I would really love to hear it.

Cheers,

Michael

 

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Thomas G

Yes could just be a matter of poor timing on Phillips part. But that´s Veciana´s version of the event. We must remember that Veciana came a long way to meet Phillips in Dallas. I think he came to Dallas from Miami if memory serves me. And quite possibly Oswald came to Dallas from New Orleans. So they both travelled a few hundred miles to be in Dallas. So Veciana´s version seems unlikely given the long travel time and distance.

It´s very possible that Phillips wanted Veciana to take Oswald to Cuba. Veciana was known for daring raids against Cuba so he would not have any problem taking Oswald to Cuba if asked by Phillips.

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41 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

Yes could just be a matter of poor timing on Phillips part. But that´s Veciana´s version of the event. We must remember that Veciana came a long way to meet Phillips in Dallas. I think he came to Dallas from Miami if memory serves me. And quite possibly Oswald came to Dallas from New Orleans. So they both travelled a few hundred miles to be in Dallas. So Veciana´s version seems unlikely given the long travel time and distance.

It´s very possible that Phillips wanted Veciana to take Oswald to Cuba. Veciana was known for daring raids against Cuba so he would not have any problem taking Oswald to Cuba if asked by Phillips.

Dear George,

I guess we could speculate until the cows come home, huh.

--  Tommy :sun

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First of all, Veciana is still alive.  I checked.

Second, at his AARC appearance, in 2014, Veciana said that he was early that day.  So, its is not something that Phillips anticipated happening.  

But let us not ever forget something that is crucially important.  Remember this is 1963.  Back in the Age of Innocence (see American Graffiti). Remember things like Leave it to Beaver, and The DIck Van Dyke Show, and how the middle class worshipped the likes of cardboard stiffs Huntley-Brinkley, and no talents like Ed Sullivan and Arthur Godfrey?  It was a different world, and I am not exaggerating.  I know because,unfortunately, I am old enough to say I was there.

Back then, people thought that Allen Dulles and Hoover were actually efficient civil servants, promoting the common good. :lol: Which today, we know is a joke.

And it was those two who had the most control over the WC.  Therefore, what one would think today as unimaginable, actually happened:  in 17,000 pages of report and documents and exhibits, one will not find the name of David Phillips, or Maurice Bishop.  Even though, as we know today, Phillips ran the CIA's anti FPCC campaign (with McCord). Which Oswald, was almost certainly a part of.  In fact, since Phillips knew Banister, he may have even given him the Lamont document for Oswald.  Secondly, Phillips ran the anti Castro ops out of Mexico City in 1963.  And according to Goodpasture, he had first dibs on that surveillance.  Can one imagine today him not being mentioned--let alone investigated-- at all in an inquiry into the JFK murder?  IMO, just that is enough to tell you the WC was nothing but a sideshow.

My point is, back then, those guys knew they could get away with something like this.  Because the mass of the public was so naive, and they had the media in their pocket. Like Dulles said, go ahead and publish 26 volumes of evidence, no one reads anymore.  Some professors will read it, but that is it. I have always maintained, I admire Dulles' brains as much I don't the uses to which he put them.

And I hate to say it, but he was right. Philosophy professors like Popkin and Thompson, and a few others, read it. As the late great Allard Lowenstein said, its not surprising that most people thought the JFK and RFK cases were acts of random violence.  What was surprising was that so many intelligent people thought it could be anything else.  Nothing more graphically illustrates what was possible in America. 

It was not until Watergate, and the Rockefeller Commission and above all, the Church Committee, that many in the public began to see they had been sleepwalking.  But by then, it was too late, it was all over.  And we know what happened to the HSCA.   When it was bye bye Sprague, it was bye bye Committee.  I mean Blakey still says in public that he buys the Single Bullet Fantasy.  Even though what he called his lynchpin, the NAA bullet lead analysis, has been completely discredited.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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1 minute ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

I don´t think it was a chance meeting. It was by design. You disagree. That´s fine; everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

Thanks!

(LOL)

--  Tommy :sun

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Thomas G

Oswald flys about 300 miles Sept 7, 1963 to met Phillips briefly in Dallas at about noontime.

Veciana flys about 400 miles Sept 7, 1963 to meet Phillips for lunch in Dallas at about noontime.

Oswald and Phillips briefly chat and then Phillips asks Oswald to leave. Phillips doesn´t want Veciana to see Oswald with Phillips. However Veciana is 15 minutes early to the meeting with Phillips and he sees Oswald. The three are together for a few seconds and then Oswald leaves and Phillips and Veciana go to a cafe and eat lunch.

This scenario makes no sense. Or in the famous words of the esteemed senator from Louisiana, Hale Boggs, that dog don´t hunt. 

If Phillips wanted to briefly chat with Oswald a much more efficient way would be to call him, not force him to travel by airplane to Dallas.

Phillips wanted Oswald and Veciana to meet. He wanted Veciana to see Oswald face to face. If and when Phillips wanted both men to work on a project there would be familairity and Veciana would know that Oswald was Phillips´s man. If Phillips told Veciana to meet with a man named Oswald w/o seeing him first, do you believe Veciana would be willing to trust Oswald? Phillips wanted Veciana to see Oswald with him so that Veciana would trust Oswald. 

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55 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

Oswald flys about 300 miles Sept 7, 1963 to met Phillips briefly in Dallas at about noontime.

Veciana flys about 400 miles Sept 7, 1963 to meet Phillips for lunch in Dallas at about noontime.

Oswald and Phillips briefly chat and then Phillips asks Oswald to leave. Phillips doesn´t want Veciana to see Oswald with Phillips. However Veciana is 15 minutes early to the meeting with Phillips and he sees Oswald. The three are together for a few seconds and then Oswald leaves and Phillips and Veciana go to a cafe and eat lunch.

This scenario makes no sense. Or in the famous words of the esteemed senator from Louisiana, Hale Boggs, that dog don´t hunt. 

If Phillips wanted to briefly chat with Oswald a much more efficient way would be to call him, not force him to travel by airplane to Dallas.

Phillips wanted Oswald and Veciana to meet. He wanted Veciana to see Oswald face to face. If and when Phillips wanted both men to work on a project there would be familairity and Veciana would know that Oswald was Phillips´s man. If Phillips told Veciana to meet with a man named Oswald w/o seeing him first, do you believe Veciana would be willing to trust Oswald? Phillips wanted Veciana to see Oswald with him so that Veciana would trust Oswald. 

Dear George,

I hereby grant you the right to hold your own opinion on this matter, fallacious though it may be, and probably is.

--  King Tommy :sun

It seems incongruous to me that you're "really surprised that Phillips allowed Veciana to see Phillips and Oswald together," yet you believe that "Phillips wanted Veciana and Oswald to meet."

How was Phillips to ensure that they met unless he (Phillips) was to "introduce" them to each other somehow?

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas G

Yes, for Phillips to allow Veciana to see Oswald by chance didn´t seem believeable. But it wasn´t by chance it was by design.

Once I realized it was by design it´s not surprising.

Phillips requesting Oswald to fly from New Orleans to Dallas to briefly chit chat is not believeable. But that is what you believe.  

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30 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

Yes, for Phillips to allow Veciana to see Oswald by chance didn´t seem believeable. But it wasn´t by chance it was by design.

Once I realized it was by design it´s not surprising.

Phillips requesting Oswald to fly from New Orleans to Dallas to briefly chit chat is not believeable. But that is what you believe.  

Dear George,

HOW COULD PHILLIPS ENSURE THEY WOULD MEET IF HE DIDN'T INTRODUCE THEM TO EACH OTHER, HIMSELF?

"Uhhh,  I gotta leave right now!  See the guy walking through the lobby? You bump into him and start a little conversation after I've run out the door!"

--  Tommy :sun

PS  Not necessarily.  Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas G

Phillips could tell Veciana to do something for him and then say go to such and such a place and pick up a man by the name of Oswald. You will know who he is because he´ll be wearing such and such and he´ll have a dollar bill torn in half with him. His torn dollar bill will match the one I gave you. So Veciana goes to meet a man he has never seen. In the business these guys are in the trust factor is not there. Veciana may refuse to work with Oswald just on instinct. 

I have the impression that you believe it was a chance encounter, a mistake in timing on the part of Phillips. Veciana felt the same way. However I doubt Phillips makes mistakes; his life depends on his decisions. He lived in Havana during the start of the Cuban revolution. For a spy to survive in Castro´s Cuba requires guts, guile and intelligence, which Phillips seemed to have in abundance.

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