George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 David Except that Dulles was not CIA at the time of the assassination. Helms definitely knew about the plot but he stayed out of it. He had to have known where his star employee was`when he was absent from his office and what he was doing. But I agree with you. Dulles and Phillips were the main players in the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 Michael I note your respect of Plumlee. I share that respect also. The man came forward`at great risk to himself to provide some very valuable information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 Roger I agree. I call the "faction within the organization" a rogue unit operating outside the approval of the CIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 How often it is said that some CIA faction or rogue agents were involved in the assassination but not the CIA as an organization. Well, an organization can "compartmentalize" itself until doomsday. The heads of an organization are still accountable for the actions of its employees. Of course the CIA is a criminal organization, so there are criminals in it from top to bottom. A CIA director becomes a criminal the day he's sworn in. So excuses shouldn't be made by blaming some criminal CIA act, such as murdering a president, on a faction or rogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 Ron It's much too risky for the agency to murder a president. The CIA would be the prime suspect in the assassination. Even today without proof the CIA is the culprit. Getting rid of a president of the USA would be handled differently and has been handled differently in the past. If an ex-director of the CIA asked for help I'm sure the agency would comply. The agency would keep it's collective mouth shut and look the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, George Sawtelle said: Ron It's much too risky for the agency to murder a president. The CIA would be the prime suspect in the assassination. Even today without proof the CIA is the culprit. Getting rid of a president of the USA would be handled differently and has been handled differently in the past. Why would it be "too risky" if the CIA would be "the prime suspect" anyway? If my wife thinks I'm cheating, shouldn't I go ahead and cheat? If the CIA did it, what would you need to prove it? Rip Robertson on the corner of Main and Houston? How about a deathbed confession from E. Howard Hunt? Or a CIA agent breaking into a HSCA safe? Or a CIA agent brought out of retirement for the sole purpose of obstructing the HSCA investigation? Sorry, but none of that would prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 Ron Back to Plumlee. If the CIA planned the assassination why would it all of a sudden decide to stop it. The abort teams were formed two days before the assassination.Plenty of time to call it off or change the parade route. The fact that the CIA tried to stop the assassination the way Plumlee indicated leads me to believe the CIA as an agency was out of the loop. Rosselli tried to stop it but he arrived much too late. According to Plumlee the abort teams arrived as the motocade was approaching Dealey Plaza. Based on an account that I believe is credible Nicoletti who was the sniper in the Dal Tex building said he would stop if he got confirmation from his boss in Chicago.The fact that Plumlee said there were men from organized crime on the abort teams lends credibility that organized crime figures were involved in the assassination. This attempt to abort as outlined by Plumlee was a real attempt to stop the assassination based on information from Texas informants and two Cubans who had previously tried to kill Kennedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said: Ron Back to Plumlee. If the CIA planned the assassination why would it all of a sudden decide to stop it. It wouldn't. That's why I asked earlier, why would the CIA want to abort the assassination? If nothing else, it might want to have a few people there to show moral support that day (say Robertson, or Phillips, or Hunt, or Lansdale), just like a former vice president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said: Ron Back to Plumlee. If the CIA planned the assassination why would it all of a sudden decide to stop it. George, David Josephs suggested earlier in this tread that the abort op would provide deniability, if it was needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) Ron Your reason and my reason for the CIA not wanting to stop the assassination are different. Correct if I'm wrong, you believe the CIA wouldn't want to stop the assassination because they want Kennedy to be killed. My belief on based on the hypothetical that if the CIA planned the assassination they wouldn't want to stop it. But based on what Plumlee and other informants said the CIA did want to stop the assassination. Plumlee saying what he said was not an attempt by the CIA to provide deniability later on. But there was one CIA agent who was part of an assassination team and also part of the abort team. He tried to stop it but failed. So the CIA did make a genuine effort to stop it. Edited May 3, 2017 by George Sawtelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 Michael The CIA made a genuine effort to stop the assassination. This wasn't about deniability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) I severely doubt that Charles Nicoletti was a shooter, and always have as long as that proposition has been around. Nicoletti's reported rifle experience consisted of deer hunting in the woods outside of Chicago. Whoever was firing, Fletcher Prouty was correct: professional-quality shooters were needed. Anonymous ones as well. Edited May 3, 2017 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 12 hours ago, George Sawtelle said: Michael The CIA made a genuine effort to stop the assassination. This wasn't about deniability. George, can you possibly offer something grounded in FACT supporting that statement? The CIA was all about deniability... What better way than to have CIA agents believe they were involved in the process of stopping the assassination... Nothing in his description gives the impression that this group was part of aborting anything... Like Oswald in Mexico, this was yet another layer of the CIA's onion of creating and accounting for a myriad of activities which served to derail an honest investigation. Mr. Plumlee: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/toshfiles.htm Although my specific assigned function was only a pilot. Upon arriving at Redbird Airport, Sergio asked me if I wanted to come along and see the President. I could also act as a spotter for him and his team, which, he said, were assigned to the south side of the plaza. I was told other members of the team would be patrolling the north side and the overpass. I understood we would be looking for a type of triangulation ambush. I gladly accepted Sergio's offer. It seemed like an adventure I didn't want to miss. We were driven from Red Bird Airport to a place not far from the Oak Cliff Country Club, then driven to Dealey Plaza, where we (Sergio and I) checked various areas and attempted to spot potential members of an attack team from the position on the South Knoll. The original information the team had received from sources in Texas and the CIA was an attempt was going to be made outside the Adolphus Hotel, but for reasons unknown to them, I was told ,the routing of the motorcade had been changed at the last minute to Dealey Plaza. While on the south knoll, Sergio and I were attempting to evaluate the most logical places where shooters might be located, but everything was confused, the timing was off, team members were late getting into position. They were not where they were supposed to be and the limited radio contacts that we had with them were not working, or spotty at best. It was soon after our arrival that the motorcade arrived. When the shots rang out, I had the impression of 4 or 5 shots, with one being fired from behind and to my left on the South Knoll, near the underpass and south parking lot. While leaving via the south side of the underpass near the train tracks, Sergio and I smelled gunpowder. I never saw Roselli in Dealey Plaza that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 David According to James Files, Rosselli told Nicoletti that the attempt to kill Kennedy had to be stopped. Nicoletti told Rosselli he would have to hear it from his boss. If his boss did not tell him to stop the assassination he was going forward. Files backs up what Plumlee said about the abort team. Roselli is a CIA contract agent, part of the assassination team and part of the abort team. I believe the CIA thought Roselli carried a lot of weight with Nicoletti but apparently not enough. The mafia sent the best hitmen from Chicago and New Orleans. Files, IMO, was there to serve as a second patsy but of course he didn't know it. At the last minute he became one of the shooters. If somehow Oswald escaped Dallas and a patsy was needed immediately, they had Files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said: If somehow Oswald escaped Dallas and a patsy was needed immediately, they had Files. I've heard about Files that the CIA is refusing to release, but I didn't know it was a person. Why doesn't Jefferson Morley try a habeas corpus writ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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