Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

[James Norwood]

3 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

I believe that you -- as a language teacher -- have a greater insight into language learning skills than a Humanities professor.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I have reported your comment above to the administration of this forum.

The guidelines are quite specific about the avoidance of casting aspersions on fellow members.

I'm a newbie to the Ed Forum.  Is this the normal way that you guys normally interface with one another?

[Paul Trejo]

4 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

Paul,

I have reported your comment above to the administration of this forum.

The guidelines are quite specific about the avoidance of casting aspersions on fellow members.

I'm a newbie to the Ed Forum.  Is this the normal way that you guys normally interface with one another?

James,

On this thread you have told me to "get a life" and also to "stop mouthing off."

Your tone has been insulting.

I have not insulted you personally in any way.  Linguistics makes a stronger scientific case here than hearsay -- that's my point.  It's a scientific point.  There's nothing personal in it.

With utmost sincerity,
--Paul Trejo

Edited September 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[James Norwood]

Paul,

It is easy to see why individuals on this forum simply stop reading and responding to your posts.


James

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, James Norwood said:

Paul,

I have reported your comment above to the administration of this forum.

The guidelines are quite specific about the avoidance of casting aspersions on fellow members.

I'm a newbie to the Ed Forum.  Is this the normal way that you guys normally interface with one another?

Reported him for what daring to disagree with you? What utter nonsense.

[James Norwood]

Tracy,

Do you want to discuss the issues of this thread (i.e., Oswald's proficiency in Russian), or would your rather keep trolling along with your mantra of "nonsense" for virtually everything that YOU disagree with?

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, James Norwood said:

Mathias,

Please do not directly or indirectly put your words in my mouth.

It is apparent from your comments above that you did not ready my article.  Instead, you have already made up your mind that Oswald learned Russian as a second language. But you are offering only "opinion," as opposed to thoughtful conclusions based on research.

My article deflates the possibility that Oswald studied at Monterey , and it equally flattens the possibility of Oswald picking up Russian from individualized study using such methods as the Berlitz system.  

If you want to make a persuasive argument about Monterey, you need to demonstrate through primary evidence that Oswald was present at Monterey for a 48-week intensive language course.  If you want to make a persuasive argument about private study, you need eyewitnesses who actually saw Oswald using flash cards or studying Russian grammar in order to teach himself Russian.  No such evidence exists. 

Why don't you take the time to read the entire article, instead of spouting off about the piecemeal comments of this thread?

Hello James,

I think we both agree that Oswald's language skills were truly extraordinary and need to be explained. I think I've shown persuasive evidence that Oswald was NOT a native speaker. If he'd been one he'd most certainly have surpassed level L2/R2, especially in the field of listening comprehension. On the other hand it would've been EXTREMELY difficult for him to reach that level by self-study only.

In your article you mention the Warren Commission's attempt to "find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages".

For a long time I've been trying to find out where the Warren Commission got the idea that Oswald studied at the Monterey School. Do you have more information on that?

[Jim Hargrove]

What we agree upon….

Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize what most of us here agree upon.  I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that:

1.  Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography.

2.  His Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection.

3.  In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect.

4.  All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

33 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

Tracy,

Do you want to discuss the issues of this thread (i.e., Oswald's proficiency in Russian), or would your rather keep trolling along with your mantra of "nonsense" for virtually everything that YOU disagree with?

No, other than to say I agree with Paul T's assessment completely.

[Mathias Baumann]

1 minute ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

No, other than to say I agree with Paul T's assessment completely.

Tracy,

I think you and Paul greatly underestimate the difficulty of learning Russian by self-study only.

[Mathias Baumann]

4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

What we agree upon….

Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize what most of us here agree upon.  I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that:

1.  Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography.

2.  His Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection.

3.  In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect.

4.  All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

Jim,

I think that's a good summary. Maybe we should finally put this matter to rest and try to find out the true purpose of Oswald's trip to the USSR. I think Lumumba University might be a good starting point.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

If you're theory is correct and Oswald learned Russian as his native language when he was a child one would expect him to perform better in listening than in reading and writing, especially if he only attended elementary school.

Again, a good point, but it hardly explains why tests of his Russian vs. English language skills would show roughly the same fluency in each.

I wonder if one factor in Oswald's lower listening score could be that the speaker he listened to spoke with an unfamiliar accent.

BTW, Oswald's listening score wasn't that much lower than his reading score. He got a -5 for understanding, which I assume is for listening, and +4 for reading. Had he gotten wrong only 4 more questions on his reading test, his scores for reading and listening would have been about the same.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

Apparently there is no evidence that he attended a Berlitz School.

Well, it seems that Nelson Delgado thought that Oswald was going to a language school.

 

Yes, but Delgado had no idea why he thought that. I think that so far my hypothesis best explains Delgado's impression:

It's possible that people around Delgado wondered aloud how Oswald had learned Russian, and that some suggested he might have gone to a Berlitz school. And in Delgado's mind that registered as Oswald learning the language at a special school in Berlin, because Berlitz sounds like Berlin.

 

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.

And so did the Warren Commission: http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.de/2011/09/monterey-language-institute-presidio.html

So there might be a kernel of truth to that story.

A kernel of truth to what story? That article doesn't mention anything about Berlitz or a school in Berlin.

Regardless, it should come as no surprise that the WC wondered how Oswald learned the language, or if they speculated on it.

 

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

Can you give a rough estimate as to what age a native speaker of a language would need to be in order to test at the L2/R2 level? For example, would a 6th grader (11 years old) be at that level? An 8th grader?

 

An 8th or even 6th grader would normally be way beyond L2/R2.

Okay. Then what about a 4th grader?

 

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

L2/R2 is defined as follows:

Limited working proficiency is rated 2 on the scale. A person at this level is described as follows:

• able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements
• can handle with confidence most basic social situations including introductions and casual conversations about current events, work, family, and autobiographical information
• can handle limited work requirements, needing help in handling any complications or difficulties; can get the gist of most conversations on non-technical subjects (i.e. topics which require no specialized knowledge), and has a speaking vocabulary sufficient to respond simply with some circumlocutions
• has an accent which, though often quite faulty, is intelligible
• can usually handle elementary constructions quite accurately but does not have thorough or confident control of the grammar

You can read more about the different levels here --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale#ILR_Level_5_.E2.80.93_Native_or_bilingual_proficiency

 

Sounds about right for a fourth grader to me. If so, that would support the hypothesis that Oswald learned Russian as a child and then moved to the United States in time to attend junior high school.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Hello James,

I think we both agree that Oswald's language skills were truly extraordinary and need to be explained. I think I've shown persuasive evidence that Oswald was NOT a native speaker. If he'd been one he'd most certainly have surpassed level L2/R2,....

Certainly that would depend upon the strength of Oswald's Russian speaking abilities when he left his Russian speaking environment, and how much of that he retained in his new English speaking environment. (Assuming that Oswald were indeed a native Russian speaker.)

My ex-wife was a native Korean speaker, having moved here from South Korea when she was the age of eight or so. And she could speak or understand no Korean by the time I married her. She simply didn't retain it. (Interesting thing though, she apparently retained her love for kimchee. She could eat a whole bottle in one sitting.)

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

What we agree upon….

Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize what most of us here agree upon.  I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that:

1.  Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography.

2.  His Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection.

3.  In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect.

4.  All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

 

Can't we add this bullet point:

• Oswald's proficiency with the Russian language prior to his defecting to Russia -- as measured by the military's Russian test -- was roughly that of a nine year old native speaker.

And then another bullet point for when he returned from Russia... the wording for which evades me.

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[James Norwood]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

For a long time I've been trying to find out where the Warren Commission got the idea that Oswald studied at the Monterey School. Do you have more information on that?

Mathias,

Thanks for your post.  The only reference I have ever found to Oswald possibly studying at Monterey comes from the remark made by Warren Commission attorney J. Lee Rankin, as quoted in my article.

If Oswald indeed studied at Monterey, the Warren Commission should have been able to locate records of his attendance, his course of study, and when/if he completed the program.  It turns out that no such records have ever surfaced. 

To answer your question about where the Warren Commission got the idea in the first place, it had to have come from either Hoover at the FBI or the American intelligence network, especially the CIA.  With Allen Dulles sitting on the committee, it should have been easy to locate those records, if they existed.

As we have no records, nor any evidence placing Oswald in the Monterey area for the forty-eight-week duration of an intensive language program, it would be pure speculation to conclude that Monterey is the answer to Oswald's Russian language abilities.

Edited September 21, 2017 by James Norwood