Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

[James Norwood]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Can't we add this bullet point:

• Oswald's proficiency with the Russian language prior to his defecting to Russia -- as measured by the military's Russian test -- was roughly that of a nine year old native speaker.

And then another bullet point for when he returned from Russia... the wording for which evades me.

 

Another bullet point to add is the Russian proficiency exam administered to Oswald.  But it is not the final score that is most important.  Rather, it is the circumstances of completing the exam in the first place.  How many Marine privates were taking the Department of the Army Russian language exam at the height of the Cold War?  And how many Marine privates who took Russian language exams at the height of Cold War subsequently defected to the Soviet Union nine months after taking the test?  The exam is only one piece of the puzzle in understanding Oswald's "defection."

[Mathias Baumann]

56 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

Another bullet point to add is the Russian proficiency exam administered to Oswald.  But it is not the final score that is most important.  Rather, it is the circumstances of completing the exam in the first place.  How many Marine privates were taking the Department of the Army Russian language exam at the height of the Cold War?  And how many Marine privates who took Russian language exams at the height of Cold War subsequently defected to the Soviet Union nine months after taking the test?  The exam is only one piece of the puzzle in understanding Oswald's "defection."

Very good question, James. We know that quite a number of other Marines "deserted" at the same time as Oswald. Did they too take this exam?

Edited September 21, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Tracy,

I think you and Paul greatly underestimate the difficulty of learning Russian by self-study only.

Mathias,

With deference to the fact that you are a language instructor, I also hold a certificate in TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language, 2003, UCSC).

My certificate included a study of Chomsky's linguistic theory of a Universal Language.   Perhaps that is a minor point -- but I am not a beginner at this topic.

It is possible (though admittedly very difficult) for a dedicated person who uses the Berlitz method of language learning to master Russian grammar at the level of reading the language, sufficient to barely pass a written (yes, written) exam.   It is not impossible.  I grant you that it is extremely difficult.

However, since Lee Harvey Oswald was reading Karl Marx at age 15, then his IQ had to be unusually high.  This -- despite the fact that he lived in extreme poverty for most of his life, and had no chance whatsoever at social or educational advancement commensurate to his talents.   He was considered "white trash" by American society at large.

This also speaks to Oswald's personality -- he was bitter about this for most of his life.  We hear about this from Marine buddy Kerry Thornley.

Lee Harvey Oswald was smart enough (and motivated enough) to teach himself Russian to that point.   Immersion in the language for two years would do the rest.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes, but Delgado had no idea why he thought that. I think that so far my hypothesis best explains Delgado's impression:

It's possible that people around Delgado wondered aloud how Oswald had learned Russian, and that some suggested he might have gone to a Berlitz school. And in Delgado's mind that registered as Oswald learning the language at a special school in Berlin, because Berlitz sounds like Berlin.

 

A kernel of truth to what story? That article doesn't mention anything about Berlitz or a school in Berlin.

Regardless, it should come as no surprise that the WC wondered how Oswald learned the language, or if they speculated on it.

 

Okay. Then what about a 4th grader?

 

 

Sounds about right for a fourth grader to me. If so, that would support the hypothesis that Oswald learned Russian as a child and then moved to the United States in time to attend junior high school.

 

Sandy,

what I find interesting is that the Warren Commission was specifically refering to the "Army School in Monterey". So it appears they were not merely speculating but had access to information that indicated that Oswald had studied there.

A well developed 4th grader usually already has a pretty firm grasp of the grammar. Also you should not forget that the ILR scale is intended to measure the progress of second language learners. It's purpose is to be guideline to develop an effective curriculum. Natives learn their mother tongue in a informal way, so we're comparing apples to oranges here in a way.

[Mathias Baumann]

28 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

With deference to the fact that you are a language instructor, I also hold a certificate in TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language, 2003, UCSC).

My certificate included a study of Chomsky's linguistic theory of a Universal Language.   Perhaps that is a minor point -- but I am not a beginner at this topic.

It is possible (though admittedly very difficult) for a dedicated person who uses the Berlitz method of language learning to master Russian grammar at the level of reading the language, sufficient to barely pass a written (yes, written) exam.   It is not impossible.  I grant you that it is extremely difficult.

However, since Lee Harvey Oswald was reading Karl Marx at age 15, then his IQ had to be unusually high.  This -- despite the fact that he lived in extreme poverty for most of his life, and had no chance whatsoever at social or educational advancement commensurate to his talents.   He was considered "white trash" by American society at large.

This also speaks to Oswald's personality -- he was bitter about this for most of his life.  We hear about this from Marine buddy Kerry Thornley.

Lee Harvey Oswald was smart enough (and motivated enough) to teach himself Russian to that point.   Immersion in the language for two years would do the rest.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

sure, it certainly was not impossible for Oswald learn Russian through self-study, just extraordinarily difficult. But I think if you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together you'll realize that this is not the most likely explanation. Oswald's trip to Russia was most certainly part of a US intelligence operation --> https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html. Add to that the rumors about the "Army School at Monterey" and things begin to make more sense, in my humble opinion.

In that context, what do you make of this?

Quote

A) Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time as Oswald and I can prove that they could have been on the same flights while each arrived at different locations.

FBI Agent Hosty's notes (the two given commission exhibit numbers) were making it to the office of Richard Helms. Helms, in 1959, gathered information from former OSS/Pond members about Helsinki, Finland in the months preceeding Oswald's arrival in the same location. The laison that Helms was using to gather this information was a close associate of Demitri DeMor(sp) brother of George DeMor(sp) who befriended Oswald while he was in Dallas.

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Jim Hargrove]

What we agree upon….

Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize this revised list of what most of us here agree upon.  I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that:

1. Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography.

2. Oswald's proficiency with the Russian language prior to his defecting to Russia -- as measured by the military's Russian test -- was roughly that of a nine year old native speaker.

3. Not one other U.S. Marine remotely from this era is known to have taken an Army Russian language exam and then "defected" to the Soviet Union less than a year later.

4. Oswald's Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection.

5. In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect.

6. When he returned to the U.S., Oswald's fluency reading, writing, and speaking the Russian language amazed a number of the White Russians in and around Dallas.

7. All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

Thanks to James and Sandy for additions to the above list.

Also, I'd like to post that link again to Professor Norwood's article.  Does anyone know of a more complete examination of Oswald's Russian fluency anywhere?  Here's the link....

http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

[Sandy Larsen]

56 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

A well developed 4th grader usually already has a pretty firm grasp of the grammar.

Okay. A 3rd grader then?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

57 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Sandy,

what I find interesting is that the Warren Commission was specifically refering to the "Army School in Monterey".

Mathias,

Well Oswald was in the Marines; was in California for a while; and could speak Russian. A military language school was also located in California. Sounds like a good place to check out and see if Oswald learned Russian there. I certainly would have.

 

[James Norwood]

30 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

What we agree upon….

Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize this revised list of what most of us here agree upon.  I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that:

1. Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography.

2. Oswald's proficiency with the Russian language prior to his defecting to Russia -- as measured by the military's Russian test -- was roughly that of a nine year old native speaker.

3. Not one other U.S. Marine remotely from this era is known to have taken an Army Russian language exam and then "defected" to the Soviet Union less than a year later.

4. Oswald's Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection.

5. In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect.

6. When he returned to the U.S., Oswald's fluency reading, writing, and speaking the Russian language amazed a number of the White Russians in and around Dallas.

7. All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

Thanks to James and Sandy for additions to the above list.

Also, I'd like to post that link again to Professor Norwood's article.  Does anyone know of a more complete examination of Oswald's Russian fluency anywhere?  Here's the link....

http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

Jim,

I believe you have served as a fine mediator here and that you have effectively synthesized the main points above.

Regarding #2, it may be a stretch to attempt to conclude anything definitive from the scores of that military Russian test.  You pointed out astutely in an early post that the results of all of Oswald's tests were strange and may be related to either dyslexia or the limited "test-taking" skills that come from a boy who had only completed his freshman year in high school.  For example, how are we to interpret Oswald's score in the "radio code" test as rock bottom, when he had almost certainly completed training in that field in the Marines?

One final note:

It is essential to reiterate how important this topic is, as observed in an internet discussion at the time of the 50th anniversary of the assassination:

“The single most important question about LHO’s background is where and how he learned to speak Russian.”

Edited September 21, 2017 by James Norwood

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, James Norwood said:

“The single most important question about LHO’s background is where and how he learned to speak Russian.”

This might be as good a place as any to tell the following story that John told me years ago....

Back when he was researching Harvey and Lee, John visited the Fort Worth Independent School District and got a list of teachers at Stripling and Ridglea West Elementary School. From the list, he managed to call Mrs. Buleau Bratton, LHO’s teacher at Ridglea West.

John said that Mrs. Bratton spoke for quite a while about Oswald and eventually said that she had shared a small apartment briefly with “Marguerite Oswald” (the impostor). Mrs. Bratton said that late at night, after midnight, she overheard Marguerite talking on the phone in a foreign language.  John suddenly became very interested in the conversation.

He asked Mrs. Bratton if Marguerite had been speaking in Spanish, and she said no.  He then asked her if the language could have been German, and Ms. Bratton responded that she knew a little German and it didn’t seem to be the language her roommate was using.  Mrs. Bratton indicated that she did not recognize the language at all—not a single word, but that she heard Marguerite speak on the phone late at night in the foreign tongue several times when Marguerite thought she was sleeping.

Could the language Mrs. Bratton heard Marguerite speak have been Russian? We'll probably never know. Because it is difficult to say anything definitive about this information, John did not include the story in either his book or the website, but I’ll always wonder if phony Marguerite might have been speaking in Russian.

[Sandy Larsen]

22 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Could the language Mrs. Bratton heard Marguerite speak have been Russian?

Or Hungarian?

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Could the language Mrs. Bratton heard Marguerite speak have been Russian?

Or could Mrs. Bratton have been a lunatic or pulling Armstrong's chain? Or is Armstrong himself lying? I find it hard to believe he left anything out of his tome. Jim never considers these alternatives.

[Mathias Baumann]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Or could Mrs. Bratton have been a lunatic or pulling Armstrong's chain? Or is Armstrong himself lying? I find it hard to believe he left anything out of his tome. Jim never considers these alternatives.

Tracy,

instead of accusing others of being lunatics or liars why don't you do some actual research and try to solve some of the mysteries surrounding this case. For instance, according to you Oswald managed to reach level L2/R2 in Russian - which would have qualified him to be a language expert in the military - by self-study only. Why don't you show us the material he used for his studies - I'd like to recommend them to my American friend who's just barely passed his L1/R1 exam after 300 lessons of training.

[Paul Trejo]

18 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

sure, it certainly was not impossible for Oswald learn Russian through self-study, just extraordinarily difficult. But I think if you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together you'll realize that this is not the most likely explanation. Oswald's trip to Russia was most certainly part of a US intelligence operation --> https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html. Add to that the rumors about the "Army School at Monterey" and things begin to make more sense, in my humble opinion.

In that context, what do you make of this?

 

Mathias,

Thanks for agreeing to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was an exceptional individual.   It is not only that his IQ was higher than average, but in my opinion, his personal biography as given by his mother, Marguerite Oswald, to the Warren Commission, during several days of testimony, reveal a very ambitious youth with no economic opportunities.

This would certainly lead young Lee Oswald to Marxism as a moral choice in his early childhood -- perhaps even before he turned 15 years old.  Life in the USA was unfair.  He saw this with his own eyes.  Boys with lower IQ and aptitude were getting far better opportunities in America.  He apparently feels this personally at an early age.

This, in my humble opinion, made Lee Harvey Oswald into a over-achiever, to the best of his ability.  Also, remember that he was the youngest of three boys, and his older brothers were not necessarily gentle with him.  Competition was the norm.  Ambition was survival.

It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald was disappointed with the opportunities he had as a Marine.  Radar tracking was too easy for him.  He was bored with it.  He was also bored with the people he was working with.   And they were the cream of the Marines.  He thought about being an officer, until he saw the Marine officers -- whom he saw as muscle-heads and bootlicks, and he wanted no part of it (cf. Thornley).  

Lee Oswald knew Marxism -- sort of.  But he liked what he saw -- the overthrow of an unfair system, and the creation of a government of perfect Equality.  To a young man, especially to a young man with bitterness about a poverty-stricken childhood -- this was a powerful motivation.

I am aware of the theories that Lee Oswald entered the USSR on behalf of the ONI.  Former CIA agent Victor Marchetti suggests that Oswald could have been part of a large ONI "dangle"  operation, in which dozens of "dangles" who did not know each other, or the Big Picture, would report randomly whenever they saw a target person in a given area.  Such a program would require a three-year commitment, with the promise of Intel advancement.  There was such a program, and many were known to be so inclined.

I admit that this is a possibility.  Yet I propose another possibility -- that what we see is what we get with Lee Harvey Oswald.  He semi-defected.  He wanted to see with his own eyes what the Communists had to offer, right there in Russia.  It takes an ambitious person to do that.  It was profoundly original.  Furthermore, Lee Harvey Oswald refused to give up his US Passport, and he refused to apply for Russian citizenship.  He just hung low, and lived the best he ever lived in his life -- relative to the population.

He not only had a steady job, he also got a healthy subsidy from the Red Cross, and he lived in the new apartments in Minsk - the envy of the neighborhood.  His income was roughly the same as his manager.  Marina, who was also ambitious, thought of Lee Oswald as an economic wizard.  But that's another story.

My point is, that there is no need to suggest that Lee Harvey Oswald was just another bright Marine who studied in Monterey and took an ONI spy position in Russia.  It is also possible -- though more rare -- that Oswald was really a high-IQ person who taught himself Russian and tricked his way into the USSR to see what it was like.  Remember that he also wrote his memoirs of this trip, and hoped to sell his memoirs when he returned to the USA.   (Perhaps he saw himself as a sort of Hemingway, whom he admired).

This aspect of Lee Harvey Oswald -- that he really was what he appeared to be -- doesn't seem to get enough attention, in my opinion.

Oh -- and as for Jim Root's hypothesis that perhaps General Walker and Lee Harvey Oswald passed in the night -- I find insufficient evidence to accept it today.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited September 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Tracy,

instead of accusing others of being lunatics or liars why don't you do some actual research and try to solve some of the mysteries surrounding this case. For instance, according to you Oswald managed to reach level L2/R2 in Russian - which would have qualified him to be a language expert in the military - by self-study only. Why don't you show us the material he used for his studies - I'd like to recommend them to my American friend who's just barely passed his L1/R1 exam after 300 lessons of training.

Mathias,

I have done plenty of original research. You can check out my web page at McAdams' site or my current blog for that. I think I could write a good article on LHO's Russia ability, I just need the time to do it.