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Steve Thomas

Harvey Lee Oswald

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Steve - I like your last conjecture in parentheses. If we follow the money we can see the confluence of interests between the military industrial establishments on both sides. JFK and Khrushchev complained to each other about their generals. I think it was Daniel Sheehan who suggested that the super rich and super powerful have far more in common with each other than they do with ordinary citizens. People think I’m crazy when I suggest that the Cold War was mostly an illusion. If the ideological divide had been the working class versus the capitalists then it would make sense. But I don’t see the Soviets as anything but another power group serving their own elitist interests. Of course the conflict looks deadly serious from the outside. Then there is the question of Angleton himself, a man with excellent fascist credentials and links to Mossad, Mafia, British Intelligence, who was close friends with Kim Philby, Soviet agent, who he protected even when William Harvey flat out warned him that Philby was a spy. 

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This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

 

Documents submitted by Dobrynin to the State Department on May 5, 1964:

CE 985 pp. 404+

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=418&tab=page

There is an application for an identity card, (good for one year) which was granted on January 4, 1960, and again on the 4th in 1961, and 1962, but no application for citizenship, and no paperwork or correspondence from the Soviet Government denying such an application. So who the hell's application for citizenship was denied?

 

There's an application for a job as a regulator in the Minsk Plant dated January 11, 1960, (for which Citizen Harvey Lee Oswald was hired on the 13th), but no application for Lee Harvey Oswald who, a Certificate says, was employed as an assembler as of January 1st) (p. 430).; which means he was employed at the factory before he received his Identity Card.

 

PS: In his job application, Oswald wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

 

A real head scratcher.

 

Steve Thomas


 

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Steve/Paul:

This is all indeed strange.  It lands upon me as insightful, though.  I've always been struck by the novel "Harlot's Ghost" by Norman Mailer.  It has elements of fiction sprinkled with what come across as factual, and I cant help think he was relating a lot of the truth.  In particular, he paints Angleton as obsessed by the tactics and strategies of the Soviets, who had much more experience in the time-honored art of espionage and counterintelligence.  I recall a description of a Soviet who kept young children and trained/raised them to be doubles.  Sort of creepy, but you then envision them becoming plants or "sleepers" sent to other countries, including America. 

If I put aside my left brain in wrestling with this case (analytic and logical, sort thru facts and evidence) and let my right brain creatively speculate, then its not difficult to see Angleton as just like Philby ... and there are theories that Kim Philby was not at all what we see him ending up as (i.e. a traitor, Communist spy, exiled in Russia, etc.). Who knows where the true allegiance of such people lies?  So, right out of a John le Carré or Ludlum novel, perhaps this was a joint US-Soviet ploy, with Angleton and others playing games that we cannot decipher easily.  Certainly he was enigmatic, and suspicious of not only all around him ... but suspect to all who knew him.  And perhaps Angleton is not necessarily on our side (the good guys, the Americans) and his true loyalties are to quite another set of powers and players.  And what was being run here was not an American project.  Truth becomes stranger than fiction.

Gene

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41 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

 So, right out of a John le Carré or Ludlum novel, perhaps this was a joint US-Soviet ploy, with Angleton and others playing games that we cannot decipher easily.  Certainly he was enigmatic, and suspicious of not only all around him ... but suspect to all who knew him.  And perhaps Angleton is not necessarily on our side (the good guys, the Americans) and his true loyalties are to quite another set of powers and players.  And what was being run here was not an American project.  Truth becomes stranger than fiction.

Gene

Gene,

“Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence and the Assault on the State Department.” by Peter Dale Scott

Fredonia Conference, July, 1990.

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

As published as Folsom Exhibit No. 1 (19 WH 656-768), this personnel file (Marine Corps) contains only unclassified documents and information. There are no overt references to Marine G-2, and only one passing reference to the existence of confidential intelligence records on Oswald in the Department of the Navy. This reference is in a letter of 29 July 1960, recommending Oswald's discharge from the Marines. The letter mentions two confidential reports from the Eighth (New Orleans) and Ninth (Chicago) Naval District Intelligence Offices, which it cites as follows:

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60.6.

 

Years later, replying affirmatively to a request for these DIO reports from researcher Paul Hoch, the Naval Investigative Service (successor to ONI) supplied two records. These established a fact not available from the rest of the personnel file: that Marine G-2 (in regional offices as well as at Marine HQ) received documentary information from this ONI District Office concerning Oswald.7.

 

In addition at least one of these G-2 records listed Oswald by a slightly different name. This alternative name, which eventually was used by at least four different military intelligence sources, was "Harvey Lee Oswald."8

 

This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.9

7 .In this paper I am deeply indebted to the archival research and analysis of Paul Hoch, as well as to additional research by Larry Haapanen and Mark Allen.

8. The four sources using "Harvey Lee Oswald" are: DIO, 9th Naval District, DIO, 8th Naval District, ONI (NAVCINTSUPPCEN.3) and Army 112th Military Intelligence Group (see Peter Dale Scott,

Deep Politics Two. 144). In response to the request for serial 02049-E. the NIS supplied a record with a serial that was contiguous but slightly different: "DIO. 9th ND confidential report serial 02048-E of 8 Jun 60." The second document, accurately supplied, carried a title different from the first: "Subj: OSWALD, Harvey Lee." We are left to wonder whether serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60 concerned Harvey Lee Oswald as well.

9 . For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49.

 

Now; I've been able to trace this reference as far back as January, 1960 - which pre-dates JFK and the election in November - back to the Eisenhower days.

What was going on in the world stage that would necessitate, or facilitate this "joint U.S./Soviet ploy"?

What was the end game?

And, I'm not so sure it was an Angleton game being played. I am thinking more military than civilian.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

.....

What was going on in the world stage that would necessitate, or facilitate this "joint U.S./Soviet ploy"?

What was the end game?

And, I'm not so sure it was an Angleton game being played. I am thinking more military than civilian.

 

Steve Thomas

I have asked myself this question. My speculation is that within Russia, and The USA, the beginnings of a desire to restore an old-world-order, as the New-World-Order were being set into motion; a longitudinal plan to ensure the dominance of big money, restore and establish oligarchy and neo royalism as an international cabal. 

Basically, slavery.

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Steve:

Fascinating food for thought ... I know you've suggested previously that some third party (not CIA) was being protected by the falsification of records and withholding of information. But my limited knowledge of CIA tells me that there is no distinction between "military" (Pentagon) and CIA .... they share resources and covers, collaborate on projects , and are in fact one and the same from an operative consideration.   So, I don't see them as separate entities or interests.

I think the allegation that Angleton's loyalties were not American has been out there for some time ... that he didn't have America's best interests at heart, and perhaps really wasn't working for "our side".  Allowing that right brain of mine the freedom to speculate, wouldn't it be interesting (and make this entire case far more interesting) if Angleton - knee deep in the Oswald Project and JFK's murder - was playing for another team?  Maybe Britain, or Israel, or even France?  More sensationally, maybe certain factions in Russia.

I've always thought that the key to understanding how/why JFK was murdered, is to study the backdrop of contemporary political events .  Pre-JFK, what was prominent in the Eisenhower Administration and world politics?  I think it was, in a nutshell, nuclear weapons and China (topics central to military leaders).  Eisenhower ended the Korean War, and one of the legacies was that U.S.-Chinese relations remained hostile and tense. Like Truman, Eisenhower refused to recognize the People's Republic of China. Just weeks after Eisenhower became President, Stalin's death brought what appeared to be significant changes in Soviet international policy. Stalin's successors began calling for negotiations to settle East-West differences and to rein in the arms race.  But a year later, in 1956, the President authorized the Central Intelligence Agency to begin top-secret intelligence flights over the Soviet Union by using the brand-new high altitude U-2 reconnaissance planes.  The main elements of Eisenhower's so-called "New Look" policy were: (1) maintaining the vitality of the U.S. economy while still building sufficient strength to prosecute the Cold War; (2) relying on nuclear weapons to deter Communist aggression or, if necessary, to fight a war; (3) using the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to carry out secret or covert actions against governments or leaders "directly or indirectly responsive to Soviet control"; and (4) strengthening allies and winning the friendship of nonaligned governments.  Eisenhower's defense policies, which aimed at providing "more bang for the buck," cut spending on conventional forces while increasing the budget for the Air Force and for nuclear weapons (reference: Eisenhower: Foreign Affairs" by Chester Pach, UVA Miller Center).  I also think of John Foster Dulles is pivotal, and was a key advisor and Ike's most important cabinet member:

Dulles described how he had passed the word to the Chinese and the North Koreans that unless the communist powers signed the Korean armistice, the United States would unleash its atomic arsenal. Dulles claimed that by moving to the brink of atomic war, he ended the Korean War and avoided a larger conflict. Secretary Dulles was the most prominent advocate of global containment and he traveled the world tirelessly to ensure its success. In 1954, the United States took a strong stand in favor of the Chinese Nationalists when the PRC bombarded Taiwan’s island strongholds. In 1955, assistance began to flow to the new nation of South Vietnam, created after the withdrawal of France from Indochina. In 1958, the United States again rattled the saber to protect the Chinese Nationalists’ offshore islands.

During his first year in office, Eisenhower authorized the CIA to deal with a problem in Iran that had begun during Truman's presidency. In 1951, the Iranian parliament nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, a British corporation that controlled the nation's petroleum industry. The British retaliated with economic pressure that created havoc with Iran's finances, but Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh refused to yield.  In August 1953, the CIA helped overthrow Mossadegh's government and restore the shah's power. In the aftermath of this covert action, new arrangements gave U.S. corporations an equal share with the British in the Iranian oil industry. The intense rivalries in the Middle East brought Eisenhower into a confrontation with his most important allies, Britain and France.  The origins of the Suez crisis of 1956 lay in the difficulties of the western powers in dealing with Nasser, the nationalist President of Egypt who followed an independent and provocative course in his dealings with major powers. Nasser bought weapons from Communist Czechoslovakia, and he sought economic aid from the United States to build the Aswan High Dam on the Nile. The Eisenhower administration was prepared to provide the assistance, but during the negotiations, Nasser extended diplomatic recognition to the People's Republic of China.  Nasser retaliated by nationalizing the Suez Canal, and the British, French and Israelis decided to take military action ...and these three nations did not consult—or even inform—Eisenhower before the Israelis launched the first attacks into the Sinai Peninsula in October 1956 (same excellent reference: "Eisenhower: Foreign Affairs" by Chester Pach). On another front - Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam - the Eisenhower administration was paying more than 75% of the French costs of the war. Yet the French were unable to defeat the Vietminh. Ike spent more than half of the federal budget the armed services, which represented in his words "an immense military establishment and a large arms industry".

So, to your instincts, maybe its the Middle East (Egypt, Israel) and certain nuclear proliferation interests. Perhaps the joint interest (for both the US and Russia) at the time was China.

Gene 

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Who sent LHO to Minsk, and why?

Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

Nov 17 - Dec. 30 I have bought myself two self-teaching Russian Language Books. I force myself to study 8 hours a day. I sit in my room and read and memorize words. All meals I take in my room. Rima arranged that. It is very cold on the streets, so I rarely go outside at all. For this month and a-half, I see no one, speak to no-one, except every now and then Rima, who calls the ministry about me. Have they forgotten?, During December I paid no money to the hotel, but Rima told Hotel I was expecting a lot of money from USA. I have $28. left. This month I was called to the passport office and met 3 new officials who asked me the same questions I answered a month before. They appear not to know me at all.

 

Jan 4. I am called to passport office and finally given a Soviet document, not the soviet citizenship as I so wanted, only a Residence document, not even for foreigners but a paper called, "for those without citizenship." Still I am happy. The official says they are sending me to the city of "Minsk."

 

There is an application dated January 11, 1960 for a job as a regulator in the Minsk Plant, a job Harvey Lee Oswald started on January 13th, but there is no application for a job as an Assembler, a job which shows Lee Harvey Oswald as starting on January 1st.

He wasn't issued an identity card which allowed him to live and work in the U.S.S.R. as a "stateless person without citizenship", until January 4th and he signed a receipt for it on January 5th.

How could he have gotten a job without an identity card? He didn't apply for it, he was assigned to it.

For a month and a half, Oswald has dropped out of sight. There's no record of him, and suddenly he is being sent to a place 420 miles away smack in the middle of nowhere.

LHO was sent to Minsk and put in place.

 

Why?

 

Steve Thomas

 

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On 11/14/2017 at 12:29 PM, David Josephs said:

Oswald was a non-citizen alien who had an Alien Identity card...  why they switch the name around and use "Citizen" may simply be clerical BS....

It's good to see David saying what the real case for this - a simple matter of getting the names mixed up.  It happens - all the time. Clerical errors.  Keep in mind too that Russians may not understand how when we fill out forms like "Oswald, Lee Harvey" as in last name, first middle, they read it in reverse to make it come to Harvey Lee Oswald.

It has nothing to do with secret agent stuff, with Oswald and clone living in each other's shadows. Nothing like that ever happened.

 

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26 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

So, to your instincts, maybe its the Middle East (Egypt, Israel) and certain nuclear proliferation interests. Perhaps the joint interest (for both the US and Russia) at the time was China.

Gene 

Gene,

 

You've given me much to mull over.

 

Might I suggest that it wasn't the Middle East, but Central Asia:

 

1)

Peter Dale Scott COPA Conference 11/24/2010

http://archive.politicalassassinations.net/2010/11/peter-dale-scott-the-jfk-assassination-as-an-engineered-provocation-deception-plot/

 

(Jack) Crichton, an oil engineer and corporation executive, also doubled as a member of the Dallas overworld. Although his 488th intelligence unit consisted almost 50 percent of Dallas policemen, Crichton also used it as a venue in the late 1950s to conduct “a study of Soviet oil fields;” and in the 1990s Crichton would himself explore the oil and gas reserves in the former Soviet Union. Also interested in Soviet oil reserves at this time were Ilya Mamantov’s employers and personal friends, the wealthy Pew family in Dallas who were owners of Sunoco. By 2009 the second largest source of crude for Sunoco (after Western Africa) was Central Asia, supplying 86,000 barrels of crude a day.”


2)

James Corbett


https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-298-gladio-b-and-the-battle-for-eurasia/

"In 1904 the Geographical Journal published an article that articulated the reason that these great powers were engaged in the struggle for this piece of the globe.

The article was called “The Geographical Pivot of History” and was written by Sir Halford John Mackinder PC, the Director of the London School of Economics...

The Geographical Pivot of History” is the document that is often said to be the founding document of geopolitics and constitutes the first formulation of what would come to be called the “Heartland Theory.”

“Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

Who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

Who rules the World-Island commands the World.”

Looking at the map of what Mackinder had in mind for the Heartland it’s apparent that the “heart” of this Heartland is indeed the Central Asia-Caucasus region.”

 

3)

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/22/donald-trump-and-the-coming-fall-of-american-empire/

In the Shadows of the American Century: The Rise and Decline of US Global Power PaperbackSeptember 15, 2017

by Alfred W. MCCoy (Author)

 

“One of the key things that I think very few people understand, after World War II, the United States became the first world power, the first empire in a 1000 years to control both ends of the vast Eurasian continent. Now Eurasia, that enormous landmass, is the epicenter of world power. It’s got the resources, the people, the civilizations that—you’ve got to control that to control the world. And the United States, through the NATO alliance in Western Europe and a string of alliances along the Pacific littoral with Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and Australia, controlled the axial ends of the Eurasian landmass.”

By the end of the Cold War we have about 800 overseas military bases.

Most of those were arrayed around the Eurasian landmass.”

 

Just as an aside, General Challe, in his defense of the Genral's Putsch in April, 1961 said that he was attempting to thwart the influx of Chinese communists - not Russian in North Africa.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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China has popped-up quite a bit in my reading, but never (as I recall) as a concerted focus.

E. Howard Hunt and his wife met in China.

I think it is LBJ that makes curious mention of a particular Congressman's "friends in the China Lobby".

Winston Lord (Skull and Bones) visited China with Nixon and Kissinger, but was cropped-out of the photos taken there. I feel that Winston Lord is somewhat neglected in the overall analysis of the politics of this period; his wife was born in China, and both are still alive.

Edited by Michael Clark

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There have been references on several threads about a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

3) In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes

 

Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961    CE 980 p. 388

1 copy to ONI New Orleans

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=399&tab=page

On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald:

5'10" tall, 165 lbs blue eyes.

 

I'm wondering now if that's where the physical description came from - Marguerite back in 1960.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

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