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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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2 hours ago, David Lifton said:

It shows Connally standing beneath the wing of AF-1, with his wife to his right (camera-left); and you can just see, from the look on his face, that he is clearly distressed (if not frightened).

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I guess that Paz has already asked the question if Mayor Earle Cabell had played any role in planning and approving the motorcade route.  In his phone call with Chief Curry during the time when Lee Oswald was led for his execution, Cabell discussed with Curry a torch parade on that night. If Cabell was involved in planning/approving a parade to commemorate President Kennedy, didn't he also take part in approving the motorcade route?

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7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

th?id=OIP.r5ZUGgyISzfQb7_69bstlQHaEK&w=3

Yes, this is the photograph to which I was referring. If it is enlarged, one can see the expression on Governor Connally's face, and it is rather obvious how distressed he was.  (The caption I supplied--from recollection--was incorrect. Jackie was located to JFK's left (and JC's left, as well). . "camera right".  Also, thanks for juxtaposing this JC photo, with the one of JC (as he was just exiting the aircraft.) It is most unfortunate that this photograph wasn't shown to Gov. JC, when he testified--either before the Warren Commission in March 1964 (or 13+ later before the HSCA)--and was questioned sharply: e.g.,  "Governor, what were you so upset about?  Please do explain."  Also:  such questioning would have been particularly effective if joined to the information that I quoted from the NY Herald-Tribune story published on 11/23/63, stating that the Governor had been told, while in flight from Fort Worth, that there would be no "downtown" motorcade; rather, the Kennedy party would proceed "directly" from Love Field to the Dallas Trade Mart. either by chopper or by automobile, but going at normal highway speeds. (I don't remember which the story said.)

But wouldn't that have been interesting, especially if such a line of questioning had included both these elements--not only what this photograph appears to show, but also the reporting in the New York Herald-Tribune, about what Governor Connally had been told, while en route from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Suggestion to Andrej: Try blowing up the photo of JC (from the neck up) and adding that to your post. That really shows Governor's demeanor, and illustrates how distressed he appears to be.

DSL

6/6/2018 - 5:25 AM PDT

South Orange County, California

Edited by David Lifton

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Yes, this is the photograph to which I was referring. If it blown up, and you see the expression on Governor Connally's face, it is rather obvious how distressed he was. [Scroll forward 3 posts to see the cropped blow-up that I posted.] 

(The caption I [originally] supplied--from recollection--was incorrect. Jackie was located to JFK's left (and JC's left, as well). . "camera right".  Also, thanks for juxtaposing this JC photo, with the one of JC (as he was just exiting the aircraft.) It is most unfortunate that this photograph wasn't shown to Gov. JC, when he testified--either before the Warren Commission in March 1964 (or 13+ later before the HSCA)--and was questioned sharply: e.g.,  "Governor, what were you so upset about?  Please do explain."  Also:  such questioning would have been particularly effective if joined to the information that I quoted from the NY Herald-Tribune story published on 11/23/63, stating that the Governor had been told, while in flight from Fort Worth, that there would be no "downtown" motorcade; rather, the Kennedy party would proceed "directly" from Love Field to the Dallas Trade Mart. either by chopper or by automobile, but going at normal highway speeds. (I don't remember which the story said.)

But wouldn't that have been interesting, especially if such a line of questioning had included both these elements--not only what this photograph appears to show, but also the reporting in the New York Herald-Tribune, about what Governor Connally had been told, while en route from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Suggestion to Andrej: Try blowing up the photo of JC (from the neck up) and adding that to your post. That really shows Governor's demeanor, and illustrates how distressed he appears to be.

DSL

6/6/2018 - 5:25 AM PDT

South Orange County, California


 

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Edited by David Lifton

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Governor John Connally is deeply concerned about something in both these pictures, indeed. His emotional expression contrasts with the happy mood of the President and the First Lady. His alleged exclamation to the effect "My God, they are going to kill us all" during the shooting can also be interpreted in the sense that he was worried about the mortal danger to the President but not to himself earlier at Love Fields. This had changed suddenly to the realisation that he also might have been targetted.    

connally_worried.jpg?w=768

 

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Here (displayed immediately above) is the photo to which I was referring, which I have cropped and enlarged.

Pardon the delay. I'm just now learning how to "do" this sort of thing.

Also note: I had to reduce the "resolution" to make this otherwise high-quality photo "fit" into a London Forum post. 

Rich:  thanks for your apology.  Now back to the subject at hand. . . :

I agree that, in the case of the two witnesses you cited (Marina, and James Jarman), LHO appeared not to know of the President's forthcoming visit.  FWIW: I believe that was feigned behavior. (Another subject, another time; but this especially applies to LHO's wife, who he kept completely in the dark about most of his "secret" activities; notable exception: Walker, again, another subject, another time).  

My question to you would be: what do you believe to have been LHO"s state of mind on 11/21-22/63?  Do you believe that--when LHO went out to the Paine residence on Thursday evening --he really (as in "honestly") did not know that JFK was visiting Dallas the next day?  And/or  that President Kennedy's  motorcade would be passing directly in front of the building where he worked?  I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious as to your view on this question.  Thanks. DSL

Edited by David Lifton

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Mr. Lifton...

Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram

On Nov 19th the detail of that non-turn turned into a TSBD corner turn is spelled out - the earlier created map has no turn...

 

The order of the motorcade vehicles was changed that morning at Love field...

Now, here is a composite from a different motorcade showing where McHugh WOULD HAVE BEEN if not removed.

I seem to remember a hole in the windshield which would lead back to the south knoll area...

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I guess that Paz has already asked the question if Mayor Earle Cabell had played any role in planning and approving the motorcade route.  In his phone call with Chief Curry during the time when Lee Oswald was led for his execution, Cabell discussed with Curry a torch parade on that night. If Cabell was involved in planning/approving a parade to commemorate President Kennedy, didn't he also take part in approving the motorcade route?

Thank you, Andrej. Yes, I asked that, especially since now we know he was a CIA asset 

Edited by Paz Marverde

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:23 AM, Paz Marverde said:

Thank you, Andrej. Yes, I asked that, especially since now we know he was a CIA asset 

yes he was

 

Edited by David Josephs

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4 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

yes he was

188863647_EarleCabellwasCIA.thumb.jpg.d813956edf238dd89cf9337d6ed86e3d.jpg

Thanks, David

That was exactly the document I was referring to. I am really deeply interested in this also because my work mate, the Italian journalist Michele Metta, discovered the existence of an impressive, astonishing link between Byrd, 411 Elm Street owner, and a Centro Mondiale Commerciale member. CMC is of course the very same CMC Clay Shaw worked for in Rome 

Edited by Paz Marverde

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You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....

Mr. Von Pein should have picked better photos to make his point.  Altgens 5 is heavily altered.  He shouldn't have shown the Zapruder frame and contrasted it to the Bronson still frame.  The people who make up the area known as Mannequin Row (those people who are lined up between the R L Thornton (light post) area) and the Stemmons Freeway  are for the most part not in the Bronson still. 

Edited by John Butler

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If I may intrude, Lee Oswald constantly behaved as a "spy in his own mind" in Bill Simpich's words. Lee's behaviour was a continuous string of deceptions. Eventually, this has made him vulnerable and somebody used his three-life profile to make him a patsy. Lee conferred to his mother that not even Marina knew why he went to Soviet Union. Marina did not know about Lee's visits to 544 Camp Street, his visit to Bringuire's shop and Lee's offer to train anti-Cubans in guerrilla wars, and she did not know about the termination of his job at Reilley's coffee company, or his trip to Jackson with David Ferry. Lee's deceptive behaviour was his trademark and the only real skill he had. Lee was an avid viewer of "I led three lives" which gave him a template for his life: to pretend to be a Communist, to have some contacts with intelligence, and to be a family man. This is what Philbrick did. Philbrick eventually broke his cover and testified against a communist cell, and this is most likely what Lee had in mind in the long run. When Lee returned from the Soviet Union, he was surprised that there were no newsmen there as he genuinely believed he played his Philbrick-like role well and deserved a credit. Lee behaved deceptively on the 22nd of November as well. His asking Givens about why people gather at the Plaza was a clever deception: at that time there allegedly were no people at Dealey Plaza. This scene does not have any sense unless one understands that Lee was always creating deceptions. One can interpret Lee's asking as the lack of any knowledge about Kennedy's motorcade (that would make him innocent), or as a callous attempt on his part to make himself unaware of a motorcade which Givens could prove later during the interrogations which Lee could have anticipated. Lee disappeared from the Depository within a very short time (3 minutes?), not even waiting what people have to say about what happened to the President. He went to the Texas Theater but he went first to his rooming house to take his gun. Is it normal to go to the cinema with a gun? Lee offered a lady the taxi cab which made him look being in no hurry, however, he asked the driver to drop him off a block past his rooming house. Is this a normal behaviour? I could continue on and on describing Lee's petty deceptions which made him feel to be a spy. And he was a spy, a spy in his own mind. Marina had also conferred that Lee was full of secrets. Thus, not telling Marina about Presidential motorcade passing the depository is not a surprise.  

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Paz...

I appreciate the ongoing looking into the CMC...

My problem in understanding this is how the players at Bethesda were made to play along...

What connection/influence can we illustrate between Clay Shaw's CMC and LeMay on the AF side or Galloway/Burkley/Kinney/Osborne and Capt Canada on the Navy side?

Without the Autopsy being directed to a specific conclusion, the cover-up is moot...

Who in this scenario has influence over the JCS and ONI?

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